Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

Depends what you define as properly? And how much attention you really pay it. Personally (and this isn't a result of Brexit) think it's a stain on our democracy. Almost shameful that we empower unelected elites.

 

As for the actual amendment. Suppose the Lord's veto the Withdrawal Agreement next February - there really is no saying they wouldn't even if the the commons passed it - then obviously no deal is blocked, what happens? And would you defend that? 

 

This is going to allow the commons to have a sensible vote on what to do if they reject the deal - and they probably won't reject the deal. It's eminently sensible that of the deal is refused they should decide what happens next. A deal or no deal vote was madness. I think there is 0% chance of the commons refusing the deal and then opting to crash out of the EU. Absolutely 0%.

 

I don't think the lords will veto a deal that passes the commons.

Edited 1 May 2018 by Guest

[Guest Foxin_mad]

Just now, toddybad said:

You're not aware of any leaks re damian green? He only got held to account because it leaked!

I do not think that was the case. He had a bit of a list building up against him. He had Porn form on his PC. I am not sure of any legitimate reason for anyone to want to remove him from the cabinet, or that he had a argument with another MP who suggested he cross the house. 

[Guest Kopfkino]

Just now, toddybad said:

This is inserting the ability for the commons to have a sensible vote on what to do if they reject the deal - and they probably won't reject the deal. It's eminently sensible that of the deal is refused they should decide what happens next. A deal or no deal vote was madness. I think there is 0% chance of the commons refusing the deal and then opting to crash out of the EU. Absolutely 0%.

 

So you haven't read the amendment. Specifically the bits that give the Lords an effective veto? It's not just about giving the commons a 'sensible vote'. In fact, Lord Billimoria summed up it's intentions by saying it will give the ability to stop the train crash that is Brexit.

 

It's also 'eminently sensible' that in a negotiation, you have a position that isn't one that the other side can see as handcuffing yourself. Seriously, what is the incentive for the EU to give us a good deal when they know a bad deal keeps us in? I didn't realise it was such rocket science.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

19 minutes ago, toddybad said:

It's just as likely to be somebody opposed to Corbyn trying to stir up trouble as it is a supporter. 

 

What was the outcome of the 4 tory disciplinaries for anti-semitism, islamophibia and racism that took place last week? Or is it only left wing problems that are newsworthy?

Ahh that one. Also very Soviet.

 

Like it was Britain who tried to murder a former Russian Spy and his daughter and Britain that faked a chemical attack on Syria so we could bomb it. Bizarre! Plausible Deniability seems a new favourite tactic of the left.  

 

I suppose Tories should be expected to be racist scumbags anyway. Do they need to investigate it as it is a given. 

[Guest]

Wow! Osborne sensing blood here!

 

 

 

 

[Alf Bentley]

19 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

I am always suspicious of these things. Damien Green, was very clearly into some dodgy stuff. I understand it was found on his computer. The Kelvin Hopkins situation is still under review, I am not aware of any leaks about either of these 2 though. A very recent bust up happened in parliament over Corbyns columns in the morning star between Williamson and Woodcock, just seems very odd. 

 

Just a few of the hits from Googling "Kelvin Hopkins":

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/12/labour-steps-up-inquiry-into-complaints-against-mp-kelvin-hopkins

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/22/kelvin-hopkins-ava-etemadzadeh-labour-mp-cross-examine-harassment-accuser

https://www.newstatesman.com/2018/03/kelvin-hopkins-case-shows-labour-needs-truly-independent-disciplinary-process

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/im-totally-disillusioned-with-labour-says-woman-harassed-by-mp-kelvin-hopkins-a3788676.html

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/labour-mp-kelvin-hopkins-faces-11842360

 

Woodcock has been a vocal opponent of Corbyn for years, so why wait and fabricate a stink over him during election week, when the Tories are on the ropes over Windrush?

Admittedly, some Corbynistas are stupid and malevolent enough to do that - but so are some Labour moderates...and the party is duty-bound to investigate such accusations. 

Hopefully we'll get a clear outcome in both cases and can concentrate on minor issues like the Brexit revolution, crumbling public services, growing poverty & violence, the abuse of residents' rights and a dangerous world. 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

Ahh that one. Also very Soviet.

 

Like it was Britain who tried to murder a former Russian Spy and his daughter and Britain that faked a chemical attack on Syria so we could bomb it. Bizarre! Plausible Deniability seems a new favourite tactic of the left.  

 

I suppose Tories should be expected to be racist scumbags anyway. Do they need to investigate it as it is a given. 

What on earth are you talking about?

All sense has left you when it comes to labour.

The right don't seem able to attack their policies so instead attack the man and come up with the sort of conspiracy theory rubbish you've just written. Take the tin foil hat off!

[breadandcheese]

40 minutes ago, toddybad said:

What was the outcome of the 4 tory disciplinaries for anti-semitism, islamophibia and racism that took place last week? Or is it only left wing problems that are newsworthy?

 

I don't think there's anything in this.

 

The anti-semitism in the Labour party is considered more newsworthy for the same reason that it was always considered more newsworthy when racists were found in UKIP.  It is because there is the suspicion that despite the denials, it is tolerated/ignored/not fully understood by the leadership at the top of the party. 

 

I know there will be plenty of people who say the establishment "smeared" UKIP just as they're "smearing" Labour, but it doesn't stop the underlying problem being true and a far growing problem than in the Tory party  

[Guest MattP]

52 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Labour said about 1000 times they would make a deal. They categorically shouted down the idea that no deal was any sort of possibility. So yes, 41%.

 

See mine and strokes conversation last week about a very similar point.

I still can't believe they said that tbh, I mean how stupid have you got to be to go into any negotiation openly admitting you'll accept whatever you are offered? Sure they wouldn't have said it mind had they actually been conducting the negotiations.

 

Being pedantic I know but the Tories actually got 42.4% - then the DUP and UKIP combined was about 2.7% - so actually around 45% voted for the possibility of no deal.

 

43 minutes ago, toddybad said:

With the current shower in government trying to take parliament out of the equation at every opportunity it's vital the lords exists imo.

I do hope you'll be just as positive when they start doing this if McDonnell's economic policy goes through it  because if they can implement this sort of change over the HoC the Salisbury protocol will vanish.

[breadandcheese]

18 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Wow! Osborne sensing blood here!

 

 

 

 

Osbourne has his axe to grind .  Regardless, it's a pretty damning headline.  The PM isn't PM material.

[Alf Bentley]

18 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

Being pedantic I know but the Tories actually got 42.4% - then the DUP and UKIP combined was about 2.7% - so actually around 45% voted for the possibility of no deal.

 

 

This compares to 48% who voted Remain. 

 

No question of "no deal" then! 

 

 

[Guest Foxin_mad]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

What on earth are you talking about?

All sense has left you when it comes to labour.

The right don't seem able to attack their policies so instead attack the man and come up with the sort of conspiracy theory rubbish you've just written. Take the tin foil hat off!

What are you talking about? You just disagree, I know your love for Labour knows no bounds and that is absolutely fine.

 

Corbyn is a nasty incompetent fool, I don't think there is anything that can be denied in there. Its laughable that people still try to defend the man he is a cretin. 

 

There are plenty of Labour policies that deserve criticism and deservedly get it, particularly their flawed economic plan. 

 

I have openly admitted a Labour party with a decent leader and some more moderated policies towards business and tax would be a credible alternative to lead the country. This hateful far left extremist lunatic and his band of yes men is absolutely not. 

 

Teresa May is crap, absolutely crap but this man would absolutely decimate this country beyond anything that Brexit could ever do and then some. 

 

The problem with his purge of moderates and surrounding himself with yes men and echo chambers is exactly the kind of desperate stunt that despot dictators take before enforcing their regime. When he is surrounded by people who say yes, who is going to challenge him? who is going to stop the measures he wishes to push through that are not in the interests of the country? Hopefully a more moderate Lords can stop this lunatic in future too. 

Edited 1 May 2018 by Foxin_mad

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

What are you talking about? You just disagree, I know your love for Labour knows no bounds and that is absolutely fine.

 

Corbyn is a nasty incompetent fool, I don't think there is anything that can be denied in there. Its laughable that people still try to defend the man he is a cretin. 

 

There are plenty of Labour policies that deserve criticism and deservedly get it, particularly their flawed economic plan. 

 

I have openly admitted a Labour party with a decent leader and some more moderated policies towards business and tax would be a credible alternative to lead the country. This hateful far left extremist lunatic and his band of yes men is absolutely not. 

 

Teresa May is crap, absolutely crap but this man would absolutely decimate this country beyond anything that Brexit could ever do and then some. 

 

The problem with his purge of moderates and surrounding himself with yes men and echo chambers is exactly the kind of desperate stunt that despot dictators take before enforcing their regime. When he is surrounded by people who say yes, who is going to challenge him? who is going to stop the measures he wishes to push through that are not in the interests of the country? Hopefully a more moderate Lords can stop this lunatic in future too. 

So, the bits in bold. I want real examples that show irrefutably that Corbyn has done or said anything nasty, lunatic, hateful or extremist in the left five years. Not supposition and conspiracies, not something he supposedly said 40 years ago, things he has actually said and/or done since being leader. Presumably this will be easy given how strongly you feel about this.

[Guest MattP]

Post Windrush polls.

 

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 42% (-)
LAB: 39% (-2)
LDEM: 8% (+1)
UKIP: 4% (-)
GRN: 3% (-)

via @ICMResearch, 27 - 29 Apr

h/t https://t.co/KirsLbeLiI

 

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 43% (-)
LAB: 38% (-)
LDEM: 8% (-)
GRN: 3% (-)
UKIP: 3% (-)

via @YouGov, 24 - 25 Ap

 

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 41% (-2)
LAB: 40% (-2)
LDEM: 10% (+4)
GRN: 2% (-)
UKIP: 2% (-)

via @IpsosMORI, 20 - 24 Apr

https://t.co/WEddShimcX

 

On who is most to blame for the problems of Windrush:

Successive Lab and Con governments: 30%
Theresa May: 23%
Home Office/Border Agency: 17%
Amber Rudd: 6%

via @ICMResearch

 

Edited 1 May 2018 by MattP

[Guest Foxin_mad]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

So, the bits in bold. I want real examples that show irrefutably that Corbyn has done or said anything nasty, lunatic, hateful or extremist in the left five years. Not supposition and conspiracies, not something he supposedly said 40 years ago, things he has actually said and/or done since being leader. Presumably this will be easy given how strongly you feel about this.

There are plenty of examples of Corbyn being a twat, just the other week in parliament over Russia, and Syria with Russia. He frequently choses the wrong path, he refuses to condemn the Venezuelan government instead blaming both sides, he condemned Trump on his comments surrounding Charlottesville yet time and time again does the same thing himself. He condemns the Saudis and Israel whilst supporting Iran. He questions the military action of the West yet refuses to question military action carried out by Russia and his 'Friends'. He blamed Ukraine for the fact that it got invaded by Russia, he talks of requisitioning property, says the financial sector will be "the servant of industry not the masters of all" a great way to crash an economy, he talks of requisitioning utilities at a rate 'determined by parliament'. These are just a few recent examples, his back catalogue is of course absolutely classic. Whenever he get interviewed he always comes across as having a very angry nasty side you wouldn't want to cross:

 

 

So you can do the same for the Tories then? Apparently they want all the poor to die, for all public sector workers to die a painful death, everyone's wages to be low and all the other nonsense about Tories being evil nasty hateful scum that get trotted out week after week. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

There are plenty of examples of Corbyn being a twat, just the other week in parliament over Russia, and Syria with Russia. He frequently choses the wrong path, he refuses to condemn the Venezuelan government instead blaming both sides, he condemned Trump on his comments surrounding Charlottesville yet time and time again does the same thing himself. He condemns the Saudis and Israel whilst supporting Iran. He questions the military action of the West yet refuses to question military action carried out by Russia and his 'Friends'. He blamed Ukraine for the fact that it got invaded by Russia, he talks of requisitioning property, says the financial sector will be "the servant of industry not the masters of all" a great way to crash an economy, he talks of requisitioning utilities at a rate 'determined by parliament'. These are just a few recent examples, his back catalogue is of course absolutely classic. Whenever he get interviewed he always comes across as having a very angry nasty side you wouldn't want to cross:

 

 

So you can do the same for the Tories then? Apparently they want all the poor to die, for all public sector workers to die a painful death, everyone's wages to be low and all the other nonsense about Tories being evil nasty hateful scum that get trotted out week after week. 

None of that appears to be any of the things you claimed. You just disagree with him.

[leicsmac]

16 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

There are plenty of examples of Corbyn being a twat, just the other week in parliament over Russia, and Syria with Russia. He frequently choses the wrong path, he refuses to condemn the Venezuelan government instead blaming both sides, he condemned Trump on his comments surrounding Charlottesville yet time and time again does the same thing himself. He condemns the Saudis and Israel whilst supporting Iran. He questions the military action of the West yet refuses to question military action carried out by Russia and his 'Friends'. He blamed Ukraine for the fact that it got invaded by Russia, he talks of requisitioning property, says the financial sector will be "the servant of industry not the masters of all" a great way to crash an economy, he talks of requisitioning utilities at a rate 'determined by parliament'. These are just a few recent examples, his back catalogue is of course absolutely classic. Whenever he get interviewed he always comes across as having a very angry nasty side you wouldn't want to cross:

 

 

So you can do the same for the Tories then? Apparently they want all the poor to die, for all public sector workers to die a painful death, everyone's wages to be low and all the other nonsense about Tories being evil nasty hateful scum that get trotted out week after week. 

4

TBH if you get into who has done what bad stuff internationally and the way it plays into the "great game" that's a pretty big rabbit hole to be going down. The whole thing is a shitheap.

 

And quite frankly - double standard or not - if someone, anyone, with any kind of political power didn't question Trumps comments regarding Charlottesville then that itself should be questioned.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

9 minutes ago, toddybad said:

None of that appears to be any of the things you claimed. You just disagree with him.

I would say they are he is showing himself to be very far left of centre by his foreign Policy decisions, he is an extremist. He would be happy to decimate or service economy, and cost thousands of job so he can prove a point. He is willing to have a deliberately obtrusive relationship with one of our biggest trading partners the US. His views are very far left and pretty extreme but in my opinion. He is certainly not a man I would want leading my country if I want to live a stable comfortable life. 

[Strokes]

18 minutes ago, toddybad said:

None of that appears to be any of the things you claimed. You just disagree with him.

He has put a decent case forward if you’re honest toddy.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

3 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

 

 

And quite frankly - double standard or not - if someone, anyone, with any kind of political power didn't question Trumps comments regarding Charlottesville then that itself should be questioned.

It is. Which is why its a little odd for one lot to claim they have absolute moral superiority and go around calling the other lot scum and worse. 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4567270/Labour-anarchists-plot-burn-rob-Tory-homes.html

 

They should also be questioning what is happening in Venezuela, Iran, North Korea, Ukraine. Of course whenever Corbyn is asked about these things he plays the 'both sides are to blame and need dialogue card'. Yet he criticises Trump for playing the same card. 

 

To me Corbyn is the same level of pillock as Trump.

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

It is. Which is why its a little odd for one lot to claim they have absolute moral superiority and go around calling the other lot scum and worse. 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4567270/Labour-anarchists-plot-burn-rob-Tory-homes.html

 

They should also be questioning what is happening in Venezuela, Iran, North Korea, Ukraine. Of course whenever Corbyn is asked about these things he plays the 'both sides are to blame and need dialogue card'. Yet he criticises Trump for playing the same card. 

 

To me Corbyn is the same level of pillock as Trump.

Don't disagree that there are hypocrites on all sides who only see what they want to see.

 

However, there are objective areas where moral superiority can likely be claimed IMO - namely issues that have the potential to affect everyone - and those tend to be triggered by those who value self-interest more than those that value it less.

[Guest Foxin_mad]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Don't disagree that there are hypocrites on all sides who only see what they want to see.

 

However, there are objective areas where moral superiority can likely be claimed IMO - namely issues that have the potential to affect everyone - and those tend to be triggered by those who value self-interest more than those that value it less.

I don't disagree. I think it somewhat detracts from peoples arguments when they start calling others Scum etc. 

 

I can understand that people disagree on certain ways of reaching certain goals. Some believe the best way to help people out of poverty is to empower them, get them a job and le them manage their own lives. Other believe we should be giving more guidance and support. Some believe people should keep more of what they earn, others believe this should go into a pot to be shared. 

 

There is no right or wrong way but I refuse to believe that the majority of people go into politics to make peoples lives a misery. Most of these people want and believe in the best for the country. This is where Corbyn falls down, I see little evidence he wats what is best for the country, he has a vision and he wants to fulfil that vision. 

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said:

I don't disagree. I think it somewhat detracts from peoples arguments when they start calling others Scum etc. 

 

I can understand that people disagree on certain ways of reaching certain goals. Some believe the best way to help people out of poverty is to empower them, get them a job and le them manage their own lives. Other believe we should be giving more guidance and support. Some believe people should keep more of what they earn, others believe this should go into a pot to be shared. 

 

There is no right or wrong way but I refuse to believe that the majority of people go into politics to make peoples lives a misery. Most of these people want and believe in the best for the country. This is where Corbyn falls down, I see little evidence he wats what is best for the country, he has a vision and he wants to fulfil that vision. 

Yeah, don't disagree there either, apart from the last sentence - but I guess we'll just share disagreement on that.

 

I wonder - is it the system itself that turns so many decent people going into politics for the right reasons into self-interested backstabbing paranoids?

[Guest Foxin_mad]

17 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, don't disagree there either, apart from the last sentence - but I guess we'll just share disagreement on that.

 

I wonder - is it the system itself that turns so many decent people going into politics for the right reasons into self-interested backstabbing paranoids?

I think there are still la lot of decent people in politics, genuinely there to improve things.

 

Governments try to do their best, I don't think there is ever a perfect government.

 

The dangers I feel come from extremities of beliefs and unnecessary hate and division caused. Whichever side left or right the more extreme the views the more likely there is hatred for a particular kind of person. 

 

At the moment it seems that extremities in beliefs are becoming more prevalent. The far right are demonising immigrants, the far left demonising the rich. It is disgusting to see comments on Far right sites, and equally it is pretty horrible to see far left activists encouraging property damage, burning, rape, theft from the rich or 'tory scum'. We seem to be taking away the whole human thing here.

 

I know for a fact that most people on here are decent folk, were all humans at the end of the day. We have different views.

Edited 1 May 2018 by Foxin_mad

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, Foxin_mad said:

I think there are still la lot of decent people in politics, genuinely there to improve things.

 

Governments try to do their best, I don't think there is ever a perfect government.

 

The dangers I feel come from extremities of beliefs and unnecessary hate and division caused. Whichever side left or right the more extreme the views the more likely there is hatred for a particular kind of person. 

Well, yeah. There's a reason that Tolkien wrote Morgoth not as a being of light, dark, heat, cold or whatever...but of extremis. Absolutism that doesn't involve protecting humanity as a whole is (often) a very very dangerous path to tread.