Guest Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 3 minutes ago, Strokes said: It’s not looking good is it? and that’s without taking the extra employers national insurance contributions into account. And if those figures are right then they just need to come out and set out the numbers and then offer something to appease the staff.
Guest Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 20 minutes ago, Strokes said: If McDonald’s gave all staff a £2 per hour payrise, it would cost them about £265m based on 85,000 uk staff at an average of 30 hour week (which is a total guess). What were their profit figures in £s..? Though I don't think the average 16 year old fry fryer would be gong anywhere close to 30hrs on average.
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 2 minutes ago, toddybad said: And if those figures are right then they just need to come out and set out the numbers and then offer something to appease the staff. Its a bloody hard game especially the bigger the company. The decisions of a board are a fine line between profitability and a potential path to bankruptcy. I presume that McDonalds will be negotiating with those in question. Trouble is people don't view the bigger picture, they want living wage, people want them to have living wage, but if they have living wage then surely their supervisors deserve a bit more. If a supervisor at McDonalds is on the same rate as a Web Developer, the web developer get a bit pissed off. If everyone wages go up, the cost of living rises and then so does the living wage, its a bit of vicious circle. Its why I am not entirely in favour of arbitrary set limits. I am not entirely sure who and how a living wage has been calculated? What is it they have determined we need to 'have' to live? I have in the past certainly 'lived' on a lot less.
Strokes Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 Just now, toddybad said: Though I don't think the average 16 year old fry fryer would be gong anywhere close to 30hrs on average. Maybe not, I’m not sure what the average is and I did say it was a guess. I genuinely thought McDonald’s profits would be much higher than that in £s.
Rogstanley Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 Guessing that profit figure comes from the following article https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/10/07/mcdonalds-uk-pays-132m-luxembourg/amp/ Clearly a fair bit of manipulation of the figures going on there in order to reduce their UK tax liability (is the culture of tax avoidance the EU's fault as well @strokes ? lol). And we can safely say their real profit is substantially higher than the official figure.
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Strokes said: Maybe not, I’m not sure what the average is and I did say it was a guess. I genuinely thought McDonald’s profits would be much higher than that in £s. Profits of £287 million in 2016 on Revenue of £1.57 Billon. Approx £60m Tax and £132 million to Luxembourgs dodgy tax regime set up by none other than Herr Junker Edited 2 May 2018 by Foxin_mad
Strokes Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 Just now, Rogstanley said: Guessing that profit figure comes from the following article https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/10/07/mcdonalds-uk-pays-132m-luxembourg/amp/ Clearly a fair bit of manipulation of the figures going on there in order to reduce their UK tax liability (is the culture of tax avoidance the EU's fault as well @strokes ? lol). And we can safely say their real profit is substantially higher than the official figure. Absolutely Its been going on beyond this government and a large part of the blame definitely falls at the feet of the EU. Still struggling with the tagging I see, if you need help with it mate just ask. 1
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 4 minutes ago, Rogstanley said: Guessing that profit figure comes from the following article https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/10/07/mcdonalds-uk-pays-132m-luxembourg/amp/ Clearly a fair bit of manipulation of the figures going on there in order to reduce their UK tax liability (is the culture of tax avoidance the EU's fault as well @strokes ? lol). And we can safely say their real profit is substantially higher than the official figure. Who set up that Luxembourg tax haven? I fully support all companies paying the tax in countries where they earned the money. Every multinational takes the piss like this. That's why it is funny when I see people with Socialist Worker banners grasping their iPhones, live streaming on Facebook with a Starbucks Latte and Pret Irony is lost on some!
Rogstanley Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 7 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: Who set up that Luxembourg tax haven? I fully support all companies paying the tax in countries where they earned the money. Every multinational takes the piss like this. That's why it is funny when I see people with Socialist Worker banners grasping their iPhones, live streaming on Facebook with a Starbucks Latte and Pret Irony is lost on some! Luxembourg set their own tax rules. I'm glad you support the idea of companies paying all the tax properly due in the country it is due in. It's true that many people don't realise how poorly behaved some big businesses are behind the scenes. That's a fine example of your free market not being nearly as efficient as those on the right typically claim.
Voll Blau Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 21 hours ago, Innovindil said: Going to throw this discussion in here. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/may/01/mcstrike-mcdonalds-workers-walk-out-over-zero-hours-contracts There's a few striking still over pay. But i remember us talking about zero hour contracts a while back and saw this interesting tidbit. “We offered all 120,000 employees the chance to move to fixed hours contracts, more than 80% of them opted to stay on their existing contracts,” she said. Now I get striking for more pay, but why strike on the premise of something that has been offered, but mostly declined? 21 hours ago, Foxin_mad said: An example of our entitled society. They want to have fixed contracts but only want to work the hours they want to work. With the example: If a burger flipper can get paid £10 a hour then I want a pay rise too, obviously the cost of McDonalds will need to rise to pay for the increases or maybe there will be job losses an more of those crap massive iPad things! Anyone see the problem with this kind of nonsense? Apart from rampant inflation. You know what? Good for them. As @Finnegan has said many times before (I'm sure it was him anyway?), it's just proof of the reason why everyone should be in a good union. Why anyone would be against fast food workers having the right to choose which type of contract benefits their lifestyle, or the right to earn a sufficient amount to live on, is beyond me. Sure, some people might look at them and feel a bit envious because they feel they deserve better too, owing to their own line of work being seen as more worthy than that of people working in the fast food industry. But, you know what? They're not going to do owt about it because this is England and people would rather have a good moan than do what these people are doing. Hence, society is not going to end up held to ransom by widespread unionisation just because a few lads who have to wear baseball caps at work want better conditions. Let them get on with it. Oh, and point of order, there are no "burger flippers" at McDonald's. As an ex-employee myself, I can confirm the grills are double-sided. 1
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 Just now, Rogstanley said: Luxembourg set their own tax rules. I'm glad you support the idea of companies paying all the tax properly due in the country it is due in. It's true that many people don't realise how poorly behaved some big businesses are behind the scenes. That's a fine example of your free market not being nearly as efficient as those on the right typically claim. Who was PM of Luxembourg when this dodgy big corporate tax regime was set up? This is a global problem and needs a global solution. We need to stop countries like Luxembourg, British Overseas Territories offering tax sweeteners to big multinationals, this needs Global action. No system is perfect I am perfectly willing to accept that for sure.
Rogstanley Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 7 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: Who was PM of Luxembourg when this dodgy big corporate tax regime was set up? No idea. 1
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 (edited) https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-juncker-taxavoidance-idUSKBN14Q1S4 http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/economy/20170529STO76260/juncker-don-t-measure-my-credibility-on-the-basis-of-my-tax-past https://www.ft.com/content/de228b90-3632-11e7-99bd-13beb0903fa3 Naughty EU Man. Edited 2 May 2018 by Foxin_mad
Finnegan Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: You know what? Good for them. As @Finnegan has said many times before (I'm sure it was him anyway?), it's just proof of the reason why everyone should be in a good union. Why anyone would be against fast food workers having the right to choose which type of contract benefits their lifestyle, or the right to earn a sufficient amount to live on, is beyond me. Sure, some people might look at them and feel a bit envious because they feel they deserve better too, owing to their own line of work being seen as more worthy than that of people working in the fast food industry. But, you know what? They're not going to do owt about it because this is England and people would rather have a good moan than do what these people are doing. Hence, society is not going to end up held to ransom by widespread unionisation just because a few lads who have to wear baseball caps at work want better conditions. Let them get on with it. Oh, and point of order, there are no "burger flippers" at McDonald's. As an ex-employee myself, I can confirm the grills are double-sided. ****ing mental hearing any working or middle class worker begrudge others for trying to get better pay or better conditions from their corporation. What it actually boils down to is politics of envy, teachers / nurses / tube drivers are collective bargaining for better pay but I can't so **** them I hope they don't get it. Ironically, it'll be the same people accusing the left of "politics of envy" by wanting to see the super rich taxed more. Said it before, will say it again, if you aren't your own boss and you don't earn six figures and you're still ideologically against unions, you're a ****ing idiot. No exceptions. You can refuse to join because you think your local is run by muppets, or is corrupt or is self serving or are a bunch of lazy ****s exploiting the union to dodge work, I won't argue, that definitely happens. But you're fundamentally against collective bargaining and workers rights? You're either a psychopath or a sheep. Edited 2 May 2018 by Finnegan 4
Buce Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 2 hours ago, Foxin_mad said: Its a bigger issue than that. Board members have a responsibility to the sustainability of the business, staff, and its future. Say this year they decide to give all UK staff a pay rise to £10 a hour minimum, I would say they also need to increase all more senior roles at a similar rate otherwise it is not fair. I have no idea how much this would cost the business but it would be significant. In 3 years times with all the health taxes and anti fast food talk going on at present, markets tastes etc. change, say McDonalds has a terrible year like Toys R Us or a few terrible years, suddenly the business is in trouble because it dished out pay rises, the staff will be the first ones cut, closures, restructures etc.. Its unlikely because the board wont allow this but it happens (granted probably not to organisations like McDonalds). Its a very fine line between a profitable businesses and not. Again what was missed by many was if we suddenly start dishing out £10 a hour wages to unskilled people, we then need to start paying skilled people more, this triggers are whole load of pay rises then inflation. Then the people at the bottom still cant afford anything because everything has gone up in price....the £15 a hour! The bosses used the same argument when the minimum wage was being touted. It was bullshit then and it's bullshit now. 1
Rogstanley Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-juncker-taxavoidance-idUSKBN14Q1S4 http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/economy/20170529STO76260/juncker-don-t-measure-my-credibility-on-the-basis-of-my-tax-past https://www.ft.com/content/de228b90-3632-11e7-99bd-13beb0903fa3 Naughty EU Man. Oh right. Tbh the idea that the EU is responsible for capitalism and tax avoidance is quite outrageous, but I'm not really bothered about that tangent. I think the point has been proven that McDonald's and companies like them could, if they wanted to, fund pay rises out of profits without setting off the Armageddon scenario you proposed. Edited 2 May 2018 by Rogstanley
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 9 minutes ago, Buce said: The bosses used the same argument when the minimum wage was being touted. It was bullshit then and it's bullshit now. Ok then. We shall see the effect it has on employment figures I suppose. There of obviously been some large retail casualties during the time of the minimum wage? related? who knows?
Finnegan Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: Ok then. We shall see the effect it has on employment figures I suppose. There of obviously been some large retail casualties during the time of the minimum wage? related? who knows? Pretty sure a little invention called the Internet has had more impact on the high street than minimum wage tbf. Edited 2 May 2018 by Finnegan
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 (edited) 49 minutes ago, Finnegan said: ****ing mental hearing any working or middle class worker begrudge others for trying to get better pay or better conditions from their corporation. What it actually boils down to is politics of envy, teachers / nurses / tube drivers are collective bargaining for better pay but I can't so **** them I hope they don't get it. Ironically, it'll be the same people accusing the left of "politics of envy" by wanting to see the super rich taxed more. Said it before, will say it again, if you aren't your own boss and you don't earn six figures and you're still ideologically against unions, you're a ****ing idiot. No exceptions. You can refuse to join because you think your local is run by muppets, or is corrupt or is self serving or are a bunch of lazy ****s exploiting the union to dodge work, I won't argue, that definitely happens. But you're fundamentally against collective bargaining and workers rights? You're either a psychopath or a sheep. I am a tory scum shit twat but thanks. I disagree fundamentally. The big problem is who do you think should pay for all these pay rises? If low skilled workers are getting higher wages, what is the motivation for people to become skilled? If more people are getting pay rises by being militant, would it not encourage more militancy? If everyone gets paid a lot more, what impact do you think that is going to have on the prices of everything? Edited 2 May 2018 by Foxin_mad
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 3 minutes ago, Finnegan said: Pretty sure a little invention called the Internet has had more impact on the high street than minimum wage tbf. It will have had some impact. Obviously, huge multinationals with huge buying power, massive warehouses, paying next to no local tax is hard to compete against for the likes of Woolworths, BHS, Maplin, Toy R Us. Having massive wage bill hikes forced upon them by government would also not help I imagine. There are many issues, also having incompetent twats as board memebers hasn't helped them either. I run a small business and I am telling you now if I was forced to pay £10 an hour tomorrow I would have to lay off at least 2 unskilled staff, its not sustainable.
Finnegan Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: I am a tory scum shit twat but thanks. I disagree fundamentally. The big problem is who do you think should pay for all these pay rises? If low skilled workers are getting higher wages, what is the motivation for people to become skilled? If everyone gets paid a lot more, what impact do you think that is going to have on the prices of everything? I don't understand the "I'm right wing so I can't like unions" shit either though really. I don't think unions should ever be as simple as left and right. You can be against immigration, pro death penalty, anti gay marriage, anti welfare state, anti big government. You can be a raging libertarian, you can even really be a capitalist in a way and still believe in unions. A union doesn't have to be a force for social change or a flagship for the Neo liberal leftist bourgeois, leave them all on twitter crying because some white girl wore a Chinese prom dress. Your union is just there to police capitalism and keep it in check, to be a voice for the workers so they can stand together to have a more powerful voice in the face of the power of money. The perception that unions have to all be full of commies after wealth redistribution and revolution is a nonsense propagated for the last hundred years by mega capitalist psychopath profiteers, many of whom own the media machine, to turn the working and middle classes against each other and against collective bargaining. Who wins? The mega capitalist billionaires and really nobody else. It's genius really, one of the best pr campaigns of the 20th century. A real union doesn't want to see a business like McDonald's go bankrupt, then all of its members are unemployed, that's not what anybody wants. A union can have the best interest of the business in mind as well as its employees. Maybe McDonald's will have to curb their profits to look after their staff more, OK, but the union aren't asking for them to actually make a loss just so some unskilled labour can make bank are they? Edited 2 May 2018 by Finnegan 3
Voll Blau Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Foxin_mad said: I am a tory scum shit twat but thanks. I disagree fundamentally. The big problem is who do you think should pay for all these pay rises? If low skilled workers are getting higher wages, what is the motivation for people to become skilled? If more people are getting pay rises by being militant, would it not encourage more militancy? If everyone gets paid a lot more, what impact do you think that is going to have on the prices of everything? Believe it or not, people who work at McDonald's actually acquire training, skills and qualifications on the job. In fact, there aren't many companies better at promoting young than Macs when they see even a glimmer of potential. Regardless though, I'm not sure what your problem is with "unskilled" guys at the bottom of the ladder earning a better wedge than they're on given some of the graft they have to do at that place. They deserve every fvcking penny as far as I'm concerned. If this seismic militancy involving a massive 11 people goes on to mean the price of a Big Mac goes up though, the customers will vote with their feet. If they like Big Macs enough, they'll keep paying for them. The number of customers never decreased in my time there, despite occasional price increases, and neither me nor any of my colleagues saw any direct benefit as a result of that. Edited 2 May 2018 by Voll Blau
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 1 minute ago, Finnegan said: I don't understand the "I'm right wing so I can't like unions" shit either though really. I don't think unions should ever be as simple as left and right. You can be against immigration, pro death penalty, anti gay marriage, anti welfare state, anti big government. You can be a raging libertarian, you can even really be a capitalist in a way and still believe in unions. A union doesn't have to be a force for social change or a flagship for the Neo liberal leftist bourgeois, leave them all on twitter crying because some white girl wore a Chinese prom dress. Your union is just there to police capitalism and keep it in check, to be a voice for the workers so they can stand together to have a more powerful voice in the face of the power of money. A union doesn't want to see a business like McDonald's go bankrupt, then all of its members are unemployed, that's not what anybody wants. A union can have the best interest of the business in mind as well as its employees. Maybe McDonald's will have to curb their profits to look after their staff more, OK, but the union aren't asking for them to actually make a loss just so some unskilled labour can make bank are they? I personally don't like Unions I know there are many people that do. I have never seen much good come out of them but maybe I have experienced 'bad unions'. If I see a good union in action working with a business then I am happy to review my thoughts. In which case the best job a union can do is hold meaningful discussions with boards instead of standing outside with placards shouting and encouraging their members to do so. I don't know the full break down on McDonalds financials but again if you give the lowest skill workers a rise to £10 a hour, you then surely have to rise their supervisors in line, team leaders etc. etc. in line. For 85000 UK staff this isn't going to be a few quid, the official profits McDonalds are quoting for 2016 is £287 million profit, to give every worker an average of £2 pay rise wipes that profit. I suppose we can question McDonalds accounting techniques as a multinational company, and I agree Multinational companies take the piss day in day out but given what they report legally globally it is what it is. The best option here for socialists is to stop using Amazon, stop using Google, stop using iPhones, stop using Facebook, Twitter, drinking Starbucks, eating McDonalds etc. etc. These companies take the piss day in day out, they are allowed to globally. Use a local business. Of course it very rarely happens, Starbucks will always be full, the local independent coffee shop more empty/struggling because they charge 50p more per cup. Its all very well for people to shout ethics here and there but unless they actually practice what they preach and that means consider every single item they use and purchase, and don't purchase it based on cost or convenience alone which so many do. I always try to buy local and will pay more for a better local service but I do not think there are many that do that. I try my best to avoid companies I know have questionable accounting practices but again I am willing to bet the majority of people holding placards don't actually bother despite their bluster because it affects their lives to much.
Buce Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 22 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: It will have had some impact. Obviously, huge multinationals with huge buying power, massive warehouses, paying next to no local tax is hard to compete against for the likes of Woolworths, BHS, Maplin, Toy R Us. Having massive wage bill hikes forced upon them by government would also not help I imagine. There are many issues, also having incompetent twats as board memebers hasn't helped them either. I run a small business and I am telling you now if I was forced to pay £10 an hour tomorrow I would have to lay off at least 2 unskilled staff, its not sustainable. 3 That explains so much.
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 2 May 2018 Posted 2 May 2018 2 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: Believe it or not, people who work at McDonald's actually acquire training, skills and qualifications on the job. In fact, there aren't many companies better at promoting young than Macs when they see even a glimmer of potential. Regardless though, I'm not sure what your problem is with "unskilled" guys at the bottom of the ladder earning a better wedge than they're on given some of the graft they have to do at that place. They deserve every fvcking penny as far as I'm concerned. If this seismic militancy involving a massive 11 people goes on to mean the price of a Big Mac goes up though, the customers will vote with their feet. If they like Big Macs enough, they'll keep paying for them. The number of customers never decreased in my time there, despite occasional price increases, and neither me nor any of my colleagues saw any direct benefit as a result of that. They do earn it, as does every working person. But if the lowest paid workers get more, should their supervisors not too? Again its a wider issue of if everyone gets paid more, arguably everyone deserves more, if we all get more money what do we think happens to the prices of everything? In the end were back to square one. The only way to solve this is full on communism. Of course its already proven, doesn't work.
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