Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Rogstanley]

1 minute ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

The worst bit is that we've probably got at least another four years of putting up with you repeating yourself every day 

If it seems like I'm repeating myself it's because the bad news and embarrassment just keeps on coming.

[Buce]

One million students join calls for vote on Brexit deal

Protests ‘will dwarf action over tuition fees’ as May and Corbyn face mounting pressure

 

Student organisations representing almost a million young people studying at UK universities and colleges are today joining forces to demand a referendum on any final Brexit deal, amid growing fears that leaving the EU will have a disastrous effect on their future prospects.

Predicting a young people’s revolt over the coming months, student unions – representing 980,000 students at 60 of the country’s leading universities and colleges – are writing to MPs in their areas this weekend, calling on them to back a “people’s vote” before a final Brexit deal can be implemented.

Student leaders said last night that they were planning action that would dwarf protests held in 2010 against the coalition government’s plans for student fees, and that they would not rest until they had been granted a say on their futures.

They argue in the letter to MPs that there are large numbers of young people – estimated at 1.4 million – who were too young to vote in the June 2016 EU referendum but who are now eligible to do so, and that this group deserves a say.

They also insist that promises made by the pro-Brexit groups during the campaign have not been kept and that only now, almost two years on from the narrow Leave vote, are most people beginning to understand what life outside the EU will look like.

“Because of all this, we call on our elected leaders to deliver on a people’s vote on the Brexit deal so that young people can once and for all have a say on their futures,” the letter says.

 

Among the university unions that have signed up are those representing students at Birmingham, Durham, Cambridge, Hull, Swansea, Leeds Beckett, Lancaster, St Andrews, Liverpool John Moore’s and Westminster. The joint letter and signatories were organised by the campaign group For our Future’s Sake (FFS).

Amatey Doku, deputy president of the National Union of Students, said: “When over 120 elected student officers, representing nearly a million young people, call for something with one clear voice, they need to be listened to. Students and young people overwhelmingly voted Remain and cannot see how the government can deliver a Brexit deal that works for them. As an elected representative body of 600 student unions, NUS is calling for a people’s vote on the Brexit deal.”

Both prime minister Theresa May and Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn have refused to back putting any final deal to the public, insisting that the British people have delivered their verdict and want to leave the EU.

But with May’s cabinet split over what form of customs arrangements the UK should propose for the post-Brexit period, and Corbyn facing an internal revolt by Labour MPs and peers – as well as signs of unrest over Brexit within the membership – an increasing number of MPs are coming round to the view that another national vote may be needed.

Last night, Melantha Chittenden, the national chair of Labour Students, which has a membership of 30,000, put Corbyn under further pressure, insisting that he had to listen to, and represent, their views. “Students want the Labour party’s policy to reflect their views and that means having a proper debate and vote on Brexit at the Labour party conference this year.

“It’s wrong to think students only care about student-specific issues like Erasmus – they care passionately about staying in the customs union and retaining freedom of movement, they understand the rights and protections that the EU affords us all and will do anything to defend that. That’s why young people voted Remain and it’s why we should get a say on the terms of the final deal.”

Meanwhile, there were growing signs that some supporters of the grassroots Labour campaign organisation Momentum will push for a shift in party policy on Brexit at the Labour conference in the autumn.

Michael Chessum, the former national treasurer of Momentum who is now national organiser of the leftwing anti-Brexit campaign group Another Europe is Possible, told the Observer: “The vast majority of Labour members – and the vast majority of Jeremy supporters – backed Remain in the referendum and haven’t changed their minds.”

Chessum said it was wrong for Corbyn supporters to argue that remaining a member of the EU would prevent the party implementing radical leftwing policies such as renationalisation. “The idea that EU rules will prevent us from enacting a radical programme in government is a fiction. There is nothing in our 2017 manifesto that could not be done, or is not already being done, within the EU – and a Corbyn government could lead the charge against state aid rules and liberalisation in the medium term. On the other hand, if we get into government to find a crashed economy, a bonfire of rights and regulations, and a series of trade deals which bind us to the American model, we’ll really struggle to fulfil our promises.” He said he expected “a big push” at the Labour conference for a referendum on the final deal.

New polling by Opinium, meanwhile, shows that Labour supporters are in favour of a people’s vote by 69% to 18%. The 18-34 age group support a people’s vote by a margin of 65% to 22%. Overall, 53% of the country supports the public having a vote on any final deal that the government agrees with the EU, compared to just 31% who oppose.

This week, cabinet ministers will make a fresh attempt to break the deadlock over the customs arrangements they will propose to the EU as part of the final deal. In a message that signalled her determination to press ahead with a hard Brexit the prime minister said last night that people should trust her to deliver on Brexit.

“I will ensure that we take back control of our borders. The public want their own government to decide on the number of people coming into Britain from across the European Union and that is what we are going to do,” May said. “I will ensure that we take back control of our money. We have agreed a settlement with the European Union and the days of vast contributions from taxpayers to the EU budget are coming to an end.

“So Brexit means there will be billions of pounds that we used to send to Brussels which we will now be able to spend on domestic priorities, including our National Health Service.”

[Sharpe's Fox]

they’ll do what they’re told. Who else will they vote for haha old geriatric Vince? We have their votes in the bag.

[Sharpe's Fox]

the former national treasurer of Momentum who is now national organiser of the leftwing anti-Brexit campaign group Another Europe is Possible 

choose one

[Guest Kopfkino]

Just give them free Uber for a year, they'll soon pipe down

[Rogstanley]

21 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

Just give them free Uber for a year, they'll soon pipe down

Thought you were a student?

[Guest Kopfkino]

3 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Thought you were a student?

And?

[Rogstanley]

Just now, Kopfkino said:

And?

Would you accept free uber in exchange for not expressing your views as well then?

[Guest]

The important bit:

 

New polling by Opinium, meanwhile, shows that Labour supporters are in favour of a people’s vote by 69% to 18%. The 18-34 age group support a people’s vote by a margin of 65% to 22%. Overall, 53% of the country supports the public having a vote on any final deal that the government agrees with the EU, compared to just 31% who oppose.

 

if these voices get louder it may be unavoidable. Brexiters will moan but more democracy is hard to argue with. Particularly given the argument about taking back control.

[Guest]

Comprehensives get cuts whilst grammar schools see extra funds.

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/grammar-schools-score-50-million-12514523.amp?__twitter_impression=true

 

 

Edited 13 May 2018 by Guest

[Izzy]

Son of a joiner becomes UK's richest man - Sunday Times Rich List

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44096507

 

Robert Watts, who compiled the list, said: "Britain is changing. Gone are the days when old money and a small band of industries dominated the Sunday Times Rich List.

"Aristocrats and inherited wealth has been elbowed out of the list and replaced by an army of self-made entrepreneurs.

"Today's super rich include people who have set up businesses selling chocolate, sushi, pet food and eggs.

"We're seeing more people from humble backgrounds, who struggled at school or who didn't even start their businesses until well into middle age."

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Son of a joiner becomes UK's richest man - Sunday Times Rich List

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44096507

 

Robert Watts, who compiled the list, said: "Britain is changing. Gone are the days when old money and a small band of industries dominated the Sunday Times Rich List.

"Aristocrats and inherited wealth has been elbowed out of the list and replaced by an army of self-made entrepreneurs.

"Today's super rich include people who have set up businesses selling chocolate, sushi, pet food and eggs.

"We're seeing more people from humble backgrounds, who struggled at school or who didn't even start their businesses until well into middle age."

Which is great. The idea of people from humble backgrounds being able to make it big is one of the few odds both left and right can get behind.

 

BUT....

 

The issue isn't the 0.01% for whom the stars align. The issue is the treatment and odds of success for the 99.99% that are left behind.

Edited 13 May 2018 by Guest

[Strokes]

A girl in my sons class at school, (year 3) had a year off to go travelling across Asia with her parents. You might be suprised to find she isnt lagging behind at all, quite the opposite.

[Rogstanley]

1 hour ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

Son of a joiner becomes UK's richest man - Sunday Times Rich List

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44096507

 

Robert Watts, who compiled the list, said: "Britain is changing. Gone are the days when old money and a small band of industries dominated the Sunday Times Rich List.

"Aristocrats and inherited wealth has been elbowed out of the list and replaced by an army of self-made entrepreneurs.

"Today's super rich include people who have set up businesses selling chocolate, sushi, pet food and eggs.

"We're seeing more people from humble backgrounds, who struggled at school or who didn't even start their businesses until well into middle age."

Doing very well for himself. Wonder if he'll decide to repatriate his business so as to no longer avoid paying tax due in the UK though? Or is being the richest man in the country still not enough?

 

Also putting these stories out as "what can be achieved" motivators is disingenuous to say the least. 

[Guest Kopfkino]

11 hours ago, Rogstanley said:

Would you accept free uber in exchange for not expressing your views as well then?

Tempting as it means avoiding the central line in the morning

[Izzy]

2 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Doing very well for himself. Wonder if he'll decide to repatriate his business so as to no longer avoid paying tax due in the UK though? Or is being the richest man in the country still not enough?

 

Also putting these stories out as "what can be achieved" motivators is disingenuous to say the least. 

What's disingenuous about it?

[Rogstanley]

2 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

What's disingenuous about it?

Because achieving that level of wealth all ultimately comes down to luck in one way or another and peddling unrealistic dreams is immoral.

[Guest MattP]

12 hours ago, Buce said:

One million students join calls for vote on Brexit deal

Protests ‘will dwarf action over tuition fees’ as May and Corbyn face mounting pressure

 

Student organisations representing almost a million young people studying at UK universities and colleges are today joining forces to demand a referendum on any final Brexit deal, amid growing fears that leaving the EU will have a disastrous effect on their future prospects.

Predicting a young people’s revolt over the coming months, student unions – representing 980,000 students at 60 of the country’s leading universities and colleges – are writing to MPs in their areas this weekend, calling on them to back a “people’s vote” before a final Brexit deal can be implemented.

Student leaders said last night that they were planning action that would dwarf protests held in 2010 against the coalition government’s plans for student fees, and that they would not rest until they had been granted a say on their futures.

They argue in the letter to MPs that there are large numbers of young people – estimated at 1.4 million – who were too young to vote in the June 2016 EU referendum but who are now eligible to do so, and that this group deserves a say.

They also insist that promises made by the pro-Brexit groups during the campaign have not been kept and that only now, almost two years on from the narrow Leave vote, are most people beginning to understand what life outside the EU will look like.

“Because of all this, we call on our elected leaders to deliver on a people’s vote on the Brexit deal so that young people can once and for all have a say on their futures,” the letter says.

 

Among the university unions that have signed up are those representing students at Birmingham, Durham, Cambridge, Hull, Swansea, Leeds Beckett, Lancaster, St Andrews, Liverpool John Moore’s and Westminster. The joint letter and signatories were organised by the campaign group For our Future’s Sake (FFS).

Amatey Doku, deputy president of the National Union of Students, said: “When over 120 elected student officers, representing nearly a million young people, call for something with one clear voice, they need to be listened to. Students and young people overwhelmingly voted Remain and cannot see how the government can deliver a Brexit deal that works for them. As an elected representative body of 600 student unions, NUS is calling for a people’s vote on the Brexit deal.”

Both prime minister Theresa May and Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn have refused to back putting any final deal to the public, insisting that the British people have delivered their verdict and want to leave the EU.

But with May’s cabinet split over what form of customs arrangements the UK should propose for the post-Brexit period, and Corbyn facing an internal revolt by Labour MPs and peers – as well as signs of unrest over Brexit within the membership – an increasing number of MPs are coming round to the view that another national vote may be needed.

Last night, Melantha Chittenden, the national chair of Labour Students, which has a membership of 30,000, put Corbyn under further pressure, insisting that he had to listen to, and represent, their views. “Students want the Labour party’s policy to reflect their views and that means having a proper debate and vote on Brexit at the Labour party conference this year.

“It’s wrong to think students only care about student-specific issues like Erasmus – they care passionately about staying in the customs union and retaining freedom of movement, they understand the rights and protections that the EU affords us all and will do anything to defend that. That’s why young people voted Remain and it’s why we should get a say on the terms of the final deal.”

Meanwhile, there were growing signs that some supporters of the grassroots Labour campaign organisation Momentum will push for a shift in party policy on Brexit at the Labour conference in the autumn.

Michael Chessum, the former national treasurer of Momentum who is now national organiser of the leftwing anti-Brexit campaign group Another Europe is Possible, told the Observer: “The vast majority of Labour members – and the vast majority of Jeremy supporters – backed Remain in the referendum and haven’t changed their minds.”

Chessum said it was wrong for Corbyn supporters to argue that remaining a member of the EU would prevent the party implementing radical leftwing policies such as renationalisation. “The idea that EU rules will prevent us from enacting a radical programme in government is a fiction. There is nothing in our 2017 manifesto that could not be done, or is not already being done, within the EU – and a Corbyn government could lead the charge against state aid rules and liberalisation in the medium term. On the other hand, if we get into government to find a crashed economy, a bonfire of rights and regulations, and a series of trade deals which bind us to the American model, we’ll really struggle to fulfil our promises.” He said he expected “a big push” at the Labour conference for a referendum on the final deal.

New polling by Opinium, meanwhile, shows that Labour supporters are in favour of a people’s vote by 69% to 18%. The 18-34 age group support a people’s vote by a margin of 65% to 22%. Overall, 53% of the country supports the public having a vote on any final deal that the government agrees with the EU, compared to just 31% who oppose.

This week, cabinet ministers will make a fresh attempt to break the deadlock over the customs arrangements they will propose to the EU as part of the final deal. In a message that signalled her determination to press ahead with a hard Brexit the prime minister said last night that people should trust her to deliver on Brexit.

“I will ensure that we take back control of our borders. The public want their own government to decide on the number of people coming into Britain from across the European Union and that is what we are going to do,” May said. “I will ensure that we take back control of our money. We have agreed a settlement with the European Union and the days of vast contributions from taxpayers to the EU budget are coming to an end.

“So Brexit means there will be billions of pounds that we used to send to Brussels which we will now be able to spend on domestic priorities, including our National Health Service.”

That headline is pure "fake news" when you read into the story.

 

It's about 130 people in reality at the minute.

[Rogstanley]

27 minutes ago, Strokes said:

A girl in my sons class at school, (year 3) had a year off to go travelling across Asia with her parents. You might be suprised to find she isnt lagging behind at all, quite the opposite.

Dear me, had a mare here mate

 

[Izzy]

5 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Because achieving that level of wealth all ultimately comes down to luck in one way or another and peddling unrealistic dreams is immoral.

But these are real life examples - not dreams.

 

Examples of people who weren't born into wealth, but followed their entrepreneurial spirit and still made it big.

 

Of course there's an element of luck involved, but to say it all comes down to luck doesn't recognise the hard work, sacrifices and risks they've taken along the way.

 

You think it's immoral, I think it's inspirational.

 

How lucky we are to live in a country where these opportunities exist, and anyone (regardless of class or background) can make a success of their lives with the right application and determination 

[Buce]

39 minutes ago, Strokes said:

A girl in my sons class at school, (year 3) had a year off to go travelling across Asia with her parents. You might be suprised to find she isnt lagging behind at all, quite the opposite.

 

That's really interesting, mate.

 

But what the fvck is it doing in the politics thread?  

Edited 13 May 2018 by Buce

[Rogstanley]

16 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

But these are real life examples - not dreams.

 

Examples of people who weren't born into wealth, but followed their entrepreneurial spirit and still made it big.

 

Of course there's an element of luck involved, but to say it all comes down to luck doesn't recognise the hard work, sacrifices and risks they've taken along the way.

 

You think it's immoral, I think it's inspirational.

 

How lucky we are to live in a country where these opportunities exist, and anyone (regardless of class or background) can make a success of their lives with the right application and determination 

Tens of millions of people work hard, one of them might become the richest person in the country. If you're inspired by him you might as well be inspired by a lottery winner because they're the kind of odds you're dealing with. 

 

Hard work can get you a decent job, it takes a lot more than that (almost all luck) to make real money.

 

[Izzy]

7 minutes ago, Rogstanley said:

Tens of millions of people work hard, one of them might become the richest person in the country. If you're inspired by him you might as well be inspired by a lottery winner because they're the kind of odds you're dealing with. 

 

Hard work can get you a decent job, it takes a lot more than that (almost all luck) to make real money.

 

It takes financial intelligence to make real money. 

[Strokes]

33 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

That's really interesting, mate.

 

But what the fvck is it doing in the politics thread?  

 

No idea how that happened, I swear I was in the kids term holidays thread.

[Sharpe's Fox]

49 minutes ago, Izzy Muzzett said:

But these are real life examples - not dreams.

 

Examples of people who weren't born into wealth, but followed their entrepreneurial spirit and still made it big.

 

Of course there's an element of luck involved, but to say it all comes down to luck doesn't recognise the hard work, sacrifices and risks they've taken along the way.

 

You think it's immoral, I think it's inspirational.

 

How lucky we are to live in a country where these opportunities exist, and anyone (regardless of class or background) can make a success of their lives with the right application and determination 

Ratcliffe is a complete scumbag. He’s been lobbying to break trade unions for years and locked his own workers out of their workplace in Grangemouth in order to get them to back down on down on pay rise and pension retentions. He’s just another bastard industrialist who’s built his wealth on the backs of his betters and if he does come from a working class background you can add Judas and scab **** to that list.

Edited 13 May 2018 by Sharpe's Fox