Strokes Posted 16 May 2018 Posted 16 May 2018 Just now, Innovindil said: It's not even zero hours, it's abuse the crap out of foreign workers on minimum wage for three months and then not give a shit about them for the other nine. Don't think I'll be losing sleep over the lost asparagus tbh. How did we farm before the EU, it’s a wonder we are even alive.
Guest MattP Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 8 hours ago, Strokes said: How did we farm before the EU, it’s a wonder we are even alive. No one had anything to eat before the EU, everyone starved.
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 (edited) 10 hours ago, toddybad said: Yet you voted in the general election for a party that exists to support exploitation. Really oh dear Fake News Edited 17 May 2018 by Foxin_mad
Buce Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 10 hours ago, Innovindil said: So the farmer doesn't give a shit about where his labour comes from. So he doesn't give a crap about supplying jobs to British people, doesn't give a shit about his European workers, all he cares about is himself and his livelihood. Why is it so sad now that he's struggling after basing his life around cheap labour exploitation, but when people voted brexit to give themselves an advantage in the labour market it's wrong? How strange it all is to see the people against cheap labour now feel sad for the people that abuse it. I must admit to having a certain amount of sympathy for this position. I'm finding it difficult to care about just another boss whining because he can no longer get rich on the back of the workers. But if we can extrapolate from this to assume that the same thing applies to all non-mechanical harvests, does it not raise issues of food security?
Buce Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 9 hours ago, Strokes said: How did we farm before the EU, it’s a wonder we are even alive. Harvesting was always labour-intensive - before the EU, we still had loads of foreign workers coming over for seasonal work in the fields.
Guest MattP Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 Victor Clunge, Norfolk Farmer - " You know what Brexit means for me, financial ruination, destitution, you see over that hill? I've got 4,000 acres of sugar and you know whose going to pick it? Poles. I tried to give the jobs to English folk, but they wouldn't do it for the wages I was paying. WelI say wages....I don't actually pay any wages, all the Poles get from me is a good kick up the arse and they love it, they go back to Krakow with a spring in their step. What has happened to the British worker?" Slightly Stolen from Rod Liddle*
Innovindil Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 18 minutes ago, Buce said: I must admit to having a certain amount of sympathy for this position. I'm finding it difficult to care about just another boss whining because he can no longer get rich on the back of the workers. But if we can extrapolate from this to assume that the same thing applies to all non-mechanical harvests, does it not raise issues of food security? We can't and don't produce enough food for ourselves right now. We have always relied on imports. What difference does it make? We might rely on them a bit more. Or all this farmland dedicated to niche handpicked foodstuffs might be converted to mass produced automated stuffs. Either way, I'm not going to feel bad about someone like him.
Buce Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 1 minute ago, Innovindil said: We can't and don't produce enough food for ourselves right now. We have always relied on imports. What difference does it make? We might rely on them a bit more. Or all this farmland dedicated to niche handpicked foodstuffs might be converted to mass produced automated stuffs. Either way, I'm not going to feel bad about someone like him. 1 It will probably lead to food price increases, especially if we don't have a free trade agreement with the EU. That has a disproportionate effect on the poor and increases inflation.
Innovindil Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 2 minutes ago, Buce said: It will probably lead to food price increases, especially if we don't have a free trade agreement with the EU. That has a disproportionate effect on the poor and increases inflation. Wasn't there a discussion on being able to get cheaper food from outside the eu before? Swear it was covered. Might be my dodgy memory kicking in though.
Buce Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 Just now, Innovindil said: Wasn't there a discussion on being able to get cheaper food from outside the eu before? Swear it was covered. Might be my dodgy memory kicking in though. Probably. But that increases transport costs, so although the food itself might be cheaper, the bottom line won't be. Another answer would be for the farmers to increase wages to a level where British workers might be tempted, but again that increases food prices. Whichever way you look at it, denying freedom of movement is going to make food cost more.
Innovindil Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 2 minutes ago, Buce said: Probably. But that increases transport costs, so although the food itself might be cheaper, the bottom line won't be. Another answer would be for the farmers to increase wages to a level where British workers might be tempted, but again that increases food prices. Whichever way you look at it, denying freedom of movement is going to make food cost more. Nah, pretty sure the bottom line was cheaper when it was worked out. Hopefully the person that brought it up before will post it again. Like I said though, it's not the only option. Mass producing other foodstuffs can increase food security and keep costs down. I don't particularly think the poor are going to see any difference if asparagus is more expensive, is it something you buy when on a tight budget?
Buce Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 2 minutes ago, Innovindil said: Nah, pretty sure the bottom line was cheaper when it was worked out. Hopefully the person that brought it up before will post it again. 1 Actually, I remember the discussion - the premise of cheap food from further afield was based on pie-in-the-sky speculation about us being able to make advantageous deals with other nations post Brexit. There were no facts and figures, no costing, just the usual blind optimism from the Brexteers. 2 minutes ago, Innovindil said: Like I said though, it's not the only option. Mass producing other foodstuffs can increase food security and keep costs down. I don't particularly think the poor are going to see any difference if asparagus is more expensive, is it something you buy when on a tight budget? Well, my knowledge of farming practices is limited but I'd have thought Asparagus is unlikely to be the only crop affected.
Strokes Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 22 minutes ago, Buce said: Probably. But that increases transport costs, so although the food itself might be cheaper, the bottom line won't be. Another answer would be for the farmers to increase wages to a level where British workers might be tempted, but again that increases food prices. Whichever way you look at it, denying freedom of movement is going to make food cost more. It doesn’t matter whether we have a FTA or not, the only extra costs would be if we applied an import levy. We can choose not too if we wish. 1
Guest MattP Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Buce said: Actually, I remember the discussion - the premise of cheap food from further afield was based on pie-in-the-sky speculation about us being able to make advantageous deals with other nations post Brexit. There were no facts and figures, no costing, just the usual blind optimism from the Brexteers. Nothing to do with that. When we leave the European Union we will then be in control of the tariff on goods into the country, removing those is nothing to do with trade deals. Before Labour decided to support "a customs union" Barry Gardner was actually making an extremely good case for this. The tariffs from the EU to protect continental farming are often absurd, even worse when it comes to clothing - and these are often the things the poorest spend most of their income on. Edited 17 May 2018 by MattP
Innovindil Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 8 minutes ago, Buce said: Actually, I remember the discussion - the premise of cheap food from further afield was based on pie-in-the-sky speculation about us being able to make advantageous deals with other nations post Brexit. There were no facts and figures, no costing, just the usual blind optimism from the Brexteers. Well, my knowledge of farming practices is limited but I'd have thought Asparagus is unlikely to be the only crop affected. https://capx.co/food-will-be-cheaper-after-brexit-if-we-ignore-special-interests/ Closest I could find on Google. Pretty much lays out the options. In the end we're going to have to decide what we want. Personally, I'm all for as close to free markets as we can get. If UK farmers can't stay competitive without cheap labour, they don't deserve to keep going.
Guest MattP Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 8 minutes ago, Innovindil said: https://capx.co/food-will-be-cheaper-after-brexit-if-we-ignore-special-interests/ Closest I could find on Google. Pretty much lays out the options. In the end we're going to have to decide what we want. Personally, I'm all for as close to free markets as we can get. If UK farmers can't stay competitive without cheap labour, they don't deserve to keep going. I think that's absolutely spot on. It makes no sense to still carry on creating policy that favour farmers who often have a few million in bank at the expense of the poorest in society who have to pay for more for basic essentials.
Guest Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 1 minute ago, MattP said: I think that's absolutely spot on. It makes no sense to still carry on creating policy that favour farmers who often have a few million in bank at the expense of the poorest in society who have to pay for more for basic essentials. If only we lived in a world where knock on effects didn't exist.
Buce Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 25 minutes ago, Innovindil said: https://capx.co/food-will-be-cheaper-after-brexit-if-we-ignore-special-interests/ Closest I could find on Google. Pretty much lays out the options. In the end we're going to have to decide what we want. Personally, I'm all for as close to free markets as we can get. If UK farmers can't stay competitive without cheap labour, they don't deserve to keep going. I guess it depends who you choose to believe: https://www.foodmanufacture.co.uk/Article/2018/05/15/Food-prices-likely-to-rise-post-Brexit
Guest MattP Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 2 minutes ago, Buce said: I guess it depends who you choose to believe: https://www.foodmanufacture.co.uk/Article/2018/05/15/Food-prices-likely-to-rise-post-Brexit Again though, that would only occur if we decided to impose tariffs.If that happens, blame the government.
Innovindil Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 4 minutes ago, Buce said: I guess it depends who you choose to believe: https://www.foodmanufacture.co.uk/Article/2018/05/15/Food-prices-likely-to-rise-post-Brexit So whilst my link covers all areas, yours covers food costs from the eu. No one is denying eu foodstuffs will get more expensive without a free trade deal mate.
Buce Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 2 minutes ago, Innovindil said: So whilst my link covers all areas, yours covers food costs from the eu. No one is denying eu foodstuffs will get more expensive without a free trade deal mate. I think it’s reasonable to assume that they have considered, and presumably discounted, that. You know, food being their area of expertise.
Innovindil Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 2 minutes ago, Buce said: I think it’s reasonable to assume that they have considered, and presumably discounted, that. You know, food being their area of expertise. Where? Where do they take into consideration that UK businesses might make new supply chains outside of the eu?
Voll Blau Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 On 15/05/2018 at 06:32, MattP said: Others will be more worried more than you, given the criteria for being gammon appears to be being white, over 50, working class, a Brexiteer, shouty and appearing angry just imagine the abuse this guy is going to get, his head is more gammon than gammon. I think your definition is fairly spot on, but class doesn't come into it. Mental how wound up people are getting about it. Imagine being fvcked off being being called a snowflake or a gammon FFS, let alone claiming it's racist.
Rogstanley Posted 17 May 2018 Posted 17 May 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Innovindil said: https://capx.co/food-will-be-cheaper-after-brexit-if-we-ignore-special-interests/ Closest I could find on Google. Pretty much lays out the options. In the end we're going to have to decide what we want. Personally, I'm all for as close to free markets as we can get. If UK farmers can't stay competitive without cheap labour, they don't deserve to keep going. Doesn't mention transport costs. It doesn't matter if steak is retailed $10 cheaper per kilo when the additional transport costs are much higher than that. I don't know what the exact costs would be but wouldn't expect to get much change out of ten quid for sending a normal 1kg parcel to the US. Big companies would benefit from economies of scale but then these would be rapidly perishable goods in need of flawless refrigeration throughout, it's going to cost a fair whack isn't it lets be honest. Also while I get the free market arguments about not protecting UK farmers (although your earlier post about the asparagus farmer was riddled with defamation since there's no evidence he "exploits" anyone beyond the level of exploitation already built in to the UK minimum wage and workers rights), we do also have to consider food security. If we become completely reliant on say the US and Africa for our food, and they know it, what do you think happens to prices? The free market works (When it does work) because of wide ranging and open competition, reducing the level of local competition isn't likely to end well for consumers. Edited 17 May 2018 by Rogstanley
Recommended Posts