Guest MattP Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 5 minutes ago, leicsmac said: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36130006 Sobering stuff. You'd have thought most of Europe would know where that kind of nationalism leads given at least reasonably recent history. Seems like history likes to repeat itself whether people remember it or not. Yet the leaders keep carrying on with policy that encourages it. I think people know exactly where it ends up (that said I don't think it would in the age of SM), but the idea a large portion of nations are going to stand by and do nothing while they are forced in seeing huge changes in their own cultures that they are quite fond of is ridiculous. If you are anti mass immigration and anti-EU in Italy or Germany who are you supposed to vote for? The answer is League, AfD or 5S (if you are a bit lefty as well).
Donut Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 (edited) On 03/06/2018 at 10:22, Webbo said: You lost mate. Get over it. What do you think you've "won"? If you aren't consulted on the final deal, how have you "gained control?" you've had all the deal details decided for you without any input as to whether they'll leave you worse off. Or is leaving the EU the be all and end all, no matter what the deal is? absolutely anything will do as long as we are free of the European superstate ruining your life? Edited 5 June 2018 by Donut
Guest Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 2 hours ago, Foxin_mad said: Absolute crap. A lot of 'consistent stating opinion as fact' going on here. You can go into Aldi and buy a basket of fruit and veg for less than a fiver. That is an absolute fact. Eg. A weeks worth of carrots 49p Broccoli 49p Onions 70p Potatoes £1 Apples 99p Cauli 49p Eating ready made cheap food is a choice, often a more expensive one when you consider the likes of Iceland/Farmfoods are making a profit on the Pizzas, chips and other ready meals they sell. If you make food from your own ingredients it absolutely will be cheaper. Whether people can be bother or decide to do with that has nothing to do with austerity, social justice or any of that absolute horseshit soundbite bollocks that you buy into. Sorry. People aren't making the correct choices in life, maybe that is down to lack of education on diet or maybe they just don't give a fvck who knows? Well done for avoiding adding the prices of meat, cheese, oils and bread ?
Guest MattP Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Donut said: If you aren't consulted on the final deal, how have you "gained control?" you've had all the deal details decided for you without any input as to whether they'll leave you worse off. Or is leaving the EU the be all and end all, no matter what the deal is? absolutely anything will do as long as we are free of the European superstate ruining your life? People can answer for themselves but to me it's an absolute yes to this, the whole idea of Brexit is to have the British parliament making the decisions that the British people elected them to do so, if they cock it up we can change the government. The leaflet send out by the government during the referendum quite clearly stated that the government will implement the decision we take, it said nothing about a consultation on a final deal, if anyone voted for they they were ill-informed and didn't know what they were voting for. If this was about money I'd be campaigning to join the USA. But it's not about money. Edited 5 June 2018 by MattP
Donut Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 1 minute ago, MattP said: People can answer for themselves but to me it's an absolute yes to this, the whole idea of Brexit is to have the British parliament making the decisions that the British people elected them to do so, if they cock it up we can change the government. The leaflet send out by the government during the referendum quite clearly stated that the government will implement the decision we take, it said nothing about a consultation on a final deal, if anyone voted for they they were ill-informed and didn't know what they were voting for. If this was about money I'd be campaigning to join the USA. But it's not about money. No one voted to be worse off. End of story. Lets just be honest. Promises about NHS spending and the ability to make magnificent trade deals around the world were not about becoming poorer. If you can find 20 people, none of whom are your friends Webbo and Strokes, who can say they voted for this notion of sovereignty whilst being happy to become poorer in the process, get them all to post on here. And there is no decision on the "decision we have taken". The box said to leave the EU. That can be done in a multitude of different ways. If the government imposes the softest possible vassal state brexit as the end deal......is that what you voted for? obviously not.
leicsmac Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 (edited) 26 minutes ago, MattP said: Yet the leaders keep carrying on with policy that encourages it. I think people know exactly where it ends up (that said I don't think it would in the age of SM), but the idea a large portion of nations are going to stand by and do nothing while they are forced in seeing huge changes in their own cultures that they are quite fond of is ridiculous. If you are anti mass immigration and anti-EU in Italy or Germany who are you supposed to vote for? The answer is League, AfD or 5S (if you are a bit lefty as well). Putting on my optimistic hat I doubt things will get that far either (though the past has shown how quickly things can develop that way seemingly out of nowhere), but that being said if/when things do degenerate to that degree it won't matter if the reasons behind it were well-meaning cultural preservation or any other reason for that matter - not when the body count starts racking up. I can understand the need of various peoples to be disparate and individual because it makes them feel somehow special (and at a fundamental level, that's what most of it is about) but as you say the leaders have responsibility for the current and future situation because of their policy, so do those same people. Edited 5 June 2018 by leicsmac
Guest MattP Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 Just now, Donut said: No one voted to be worse off. End of story. Lets just be honest. Promises about NHS spending and the ability to make magnificent trade deals around the world were not about becoming poorer. If you can find 20 people, none of whom are your friends Webbo and Strokes, who can say they voted for this notion of sovereignty whilst being happy to become poorer in the process, get them all to post on here. And there is no decision on the "decision we have taken". The box said to leave the EU. That can be done in a multitude of different ways. If the government imposes the softest possible vassal state brexit as the end deal......is that what you voted for? obviously not. Sorry, but you have no idea what people voted for. The whole line of "No one voted to be worse off" is nonsense, I'll happily trade a few quid in my pocket for a repatriation of sovereignty to my country. Ideally I wouldn't want it to happen, but if it does then so be it. The box said to Leave the European Union, the Prime Minister at the time, the Chancellor at the time and the leading players in both Vote Leave and Remain all said that meant leaving the single market, I appreciate there is a debate to be had about the customs union. The more I debate this the more I realise than Remain voters have absolutely no idea why people voted Leave. Why they think they can tell us why we did is completely baffling. I've never have the arrogance to start telling people why they voted to stay from the other side of the fence.
Carl the Llama Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 On the food issue I would argue that Foxin is correct in the sense that a diet consisting of healthy, self-prepared food is objectively cheaper, but Toddy raises a very good point mentioning meat though because the meat market is hugely prohibitive for those on low incomes if you're trying to support ethical farming practices with your purchases, otherwise you have to make do with low-quality, cheap, fatty shit.
Donut Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 11 minutes ago, MattP said: People can answer for themselves but to me it's an absolute yes to this, the whole idea of Brexit is to have the British parliament making the decisions that the British people elected them to do so, if they cock it up we can change the government. The leaflet send out by the government during the referendum quite clearly stated that the government will implement the decision we take, it said nothing about a consultation on a final deal, if anyone voted for they they were ill-informed and didn't know what they were voting for. If this was about money I'd be campaigning to join the USA. But it's not about money. And just to clarify your quote; Absolutely anything will do. No trade deal at all, having to negotiate separate trade deals with absolutely everyone, paying £20 billion a year to maintain frictionless borders for just in time production, no agreements on citizens rights, the hard border in northern Ireland, a reduction in our ability to trade with our closest customers, the idea that were just going to cut and paste a lot of EU laws into British law anyway.... whatever bad could happen, its all irrelevant as being free of the EU is all that matters. I don't really get it to be honest. You've probably lived 40 years and your life hasn't been ruined. You've probably voted to ruin it for yourself.
Guest MattP Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 2 minutes ago, leicsmac said: I can understand the need of various peoples to be disparate and individual because it makes them feel somehow special (and at a fundamental level, that's what most of it is about) but as you say the leaders have responsibility for the current and future situation because of their policy, so do those same people. I actually think one of the biggest mistakes the modern political elite have made (mainly on the left, but also on the right) is that "reasonable people" can't vote for what they regard as extremists in any sort of numbers so we can literally throw any policy onto them without consequence, whether it's the EU enforcing austerity onto elected governments or Angela Merkel deciding to try an force huge cultural change onto a nation wihout even asking it's people first if they even want it. If voting for a few far-right or far left parties helps to stop that it could turn out to be a good thing.
Guest MattP Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 Just now, Donut said: And just to clarify your quote; Absolutely anything will do. No trade deal at all, having to negotiate separate trade deals with absolutely everyone, paying £20 billion a year to maintain frictionless borders for just in time production, no agreements on citizens rights, the hard border in northern Ireland, a reduction in our ability to trade with our closest customers, the idea that were just going to cut and paste a lot of EU laws into British law anyway.... whatever bad could happen, its all irrelevant as being free of the EU is all that matters. I don't really get it to be honest. You've probably lived 40 years and your life hasn't been ruined. You've probably voted to ruin it for yourself. To get out absolutely, anything will do. Then if all those things happen, I'll vote to change the completely incompetent government that oversaw the deal.
Donut Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 3 minutes ago, MattP said: Sorry, but you have no idea what people voted for. The whole line of "No one voted to be worse off" is nonsense, I'll happily trade a few quid in my pocket for a repatriation of sovereignty to my country. Ideally I wouldn't want it to happen, but if it does then so be it. The box said to Leave the European Union, the Prime Minister at the time, the Chancellor at the time and the leading players in both Vote Leave and Remain all said that meant leaving the single market, I appreciate there is a debate to be had about the customs union. The more I debate this the more I realise than Remain voters have absolutely no idea why people voted Leave. Why they think they can tell us why we did is completely baffling. I've never have the arrogance to start telling people why they voted to stay from the other side of the fence. Ah, I get it now. So NO ONE that voted remain knew what Brexiters were voting for. But magically, ALL the Brexiters knew what each other were voting for. Yep, ok mate.
Guest MattP Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 1 minute ago, Donut said: Ah, I get it now. So NO ONE that voted remain knew what Brexiters were voting for. But magically, ALL the Brexiters knew what each other were voting for. Yep, ok mate. Somehow you missed the last part, I have no clue why you or anyone else voted Remain, I could take a guess, but I would never be sure. Quote The more I debate this the more I realise than Remain voters have absolutely no idea why people voted Leave. Why they think they can tell us why we did is completely baffling. I've never have the arrogance to start telling people why they voted to stay from the other side of the fence.
Donut Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 7 minutes ago, MattP said: Sorry, but you have no idea what people voted for. The whole line of "No one voted to be worse off" is nonsense, I'll happily trade a few quid in my pocket for a repatriation of sovereignty to my country. Ideally I wouldn't want it to happen, but if it does then so be it. The box said to Leave the European Union, the Prime Minister at the time, the Chancellor at the time and the leading players in both Vote Leave and Remain all said that meant leaving the single market, I appreciate there is a debate to be had about the customs union. The more I debate this the more I realise than Remain voters have absolutely no idea why people voted Leave. Why they think they can tell us why we did is completely baffling. I've never have the arrogance to start telling people why they voted to stay from the other side of the fence. Brexit voter 1 wanted 350 million for the NHS. Brexit voter 2 wanted to leave the EU because he hates Polish people and is a racist Brexit voter 3 wanted to leave the EU because he wants parliament to be sovereign Brexit voter 4 wanted a Norway type arrangement that Boris and Farrage had talked about in the lead up to the referendum Brexit voter 5 wanted to leave the EU, but retain some of the benefits of single market and customs union Brexit voter 6 thought it was absolutely essential that we leave single market and customs union So you don't know why they voted the way they did, and they all voted for different things. In your head, you think everyone agrees with YOUR vision of brexit. Or the little echo chamber you live in of a few people agreeing with you. If the actual brexit is nothing like the one you imagined, youll be stuffed.
Guest MattP Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 1 minute ago, Donut said: So you don't know why they voted the way they did, and they all voted for different things. In your head, you think everyone agrees with YOUR vision of brexit. Or the little echo chamber you live in of a few people agreeing with you. If the actual brexit is nothing like the one you imagined, youll be stuffed. I have never claimed this, people would have voted for all different reasons. Where have I ever claimed they didn't? If the actual Brexit is nothing like the one I imagined, I'll continue to campaign and vote for the version I would like to see in forthcoming elections, what I certainly won't do is fall into any obvious trap set by Remain supporters to use the annoyance of our side into trying to reverse the decision full stop so they get what they want, now that is something virtually everyone from my side will agree on.
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 23 minutes ago, toddybad said: Well done for avoiding adding the prices of meat, cheese, oils and bread ? We are talking about being healthy here though over so called cheap supermarket ready meals. You could add in some Chicken from Aldi (£1.99) and a few other meats, Fish, some pasta, bread, some cheese and milk it wont come to much above £30 a week. I know because I shop there and frequent achieve that without alcohol, I am amazed at the prices and quality of most stuff. Some of the Cereal etc. is questionable quality but most products are great. 9 minutes ago, Carl the Llama said: On the food issue I would argue that Foxin is correct in the sense that a diet consisting of healthy, self-prepared food is objectively cheaper, but Toddy raises a very good point mentioning meat though because the meat market is hugely prohibitive for those on low incomes if you're trying to support ethical farming practices with your purchases, otherwise you have to make do with low-quality, cheap, fatty shit. I would imagine it is probably hard to buy meat that is fully ethical cheaply, so I can agree maybe that would be an issue for those that wish to be ethical on a budget, there are some decent cuts available though at decent prices. I go to a local butcher who uses local farms and can undercut the supermarkets on most meat, the quality is top notch. Some cuts of Beef for example are available cheaply at a butcher brisket/chuck they need a slow long cook, but if cooked well taste better than more popular convenience cuts like topside. I still think its a lot cheaper to make your own stuff than buy ready made, I have lived in both worlds so have experienced it first hand.
Donut Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 1 minute ago, MattP said: I have never claimed this, people would have voted for all different reasons. Where have I ever claimed they didn't? If the actual Brexit is nothing like the one I imagined, I'll continue to campaign and vote for the version I would like to see in forthcoming elections, what I certainly won't do is fall into any obvious trap set by Remain supporters to use the annoyance of our side into trying to reverse the decision full stop so they get what they want, now that is something virtually everyone from my side will agree on. And if it then comes to light people aren't voting for sovereignty at all? or public opinion turns back towards re-joining the EU if the country suffers, then what happens?
Guest MattP Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 16 minutes ago, Donut said: And if it then comes to light people aren't voting for sovereignty at all? or public opinion turns back towards re-joining the EU if the country suffers, then what happens? If many people realise this was all a con (as most who voted for a common market in 1975 appeared to have done so by 2016) then you can have another referendum on re-joining and then argue the case for doing so, that's fully fair after the decision to leave has been implemented and the democratic result expected. You are me both know that's a while away though while 85% of the electorate are voting for parties that will implement the decision, there was a chance to have a second referendum just last year had the Lib Dems won, I'm glad they didn't as the fall out from it would have been dreadful. Why would we deny our citizens that right if there is a cry for it? For what's worth it probably won't be there anyway given here and Germany is now about the only place where the young love the European Union, but if it, is go for it.
Guest Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: We are talking about being healthy here though over so called cheap supermarket ready meals. You could add in some Chicken from Aldi (£1.99) and a few other meats, Fish, some pasta, bread, some cheese and milk it wont come to much above £30 a week. I know because I shop there and frequent achieve that without alcohol, I am amazed at the prices and quality of most stuff. Some of the Cereal etc. is questionable quality but most products are great. I would imagine it is probably hard to buy meat that is fully ethical cheaply, so I can agree maybe that would be an issue for those that wish to be ethical on a budget, there are some decent cuts available though at decent prices. I go to a local butcher who uses local farms and can undercut the supermarkets on most meat, the quality is top notch. Some cuts of Beef for example are available cheaply at a butcher brisket/chuck they need a slow long cook, but if cooked well taste better than more popular convenience cuts like topside. I still think its a lot cheaper to make your own stuff than buy ready made, I have lived in both worlds so have experienced it first hand. Like you I also shop cheaply and know how to prepare and cook from scratch. But I'm not 100% convinced about which is cheaper. If you live off of smartprice asda ready meals you can have a week's dinners for £7. Lasagne, fish pie, shepherd's pie etc all cheaper than you can make them. But it's poor quality rubbish. Perhaps if you multiply up the number of people it's for then there's a point where home cooking becomes cheaper. Or, of course, you can batch cook and have the same dinner multiple times. But once you factor in fats, proteins and dairy additions to recipes I think the cheap crap ready meals are cheaper. But I will remind you that we're talking about how to minimise to almost nothing the food costs of people that work full time whilst those profiting from their work eat swan (as it were). Edited 5 June 2018 by Guest
Buce Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 21 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: I still think its a lot cheaper to make your own stuff than buy ready made, 1 We have actually found something we agree on. Hallelujah! However... Not everybody has access to cheap, healthy food - I don't know about Stoke on Trent, but Aldi are not widely available in Leicester (I've just checked - the nearest one to me, for example, is over three miles away). Cooking from scratch is time-consuming, and it's reasonable to say that the poorer you are, the less time-rich you are. Whether it's PC to say so or not, there is a close relationship between poverty and education - by definition, poor people are less likely to be educated about food nutrition. There is also a close relationship between poverty and poor mental health, and studies have shown that when depressed, people crave foods high in sugar and fat content. I could go on, but I suspect I'd be wasting my time. 1
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 1 minute ago, toddybad said: Like you I also shop cheaply and know how to prepare and cook from scratch. But I'm not 100% convinced about which is cheaper. If you live off of smartprice asda ready meals you can have a week's dinners for £7. Lasagne, fish pie, shepherd's pie etc all cheaper than you can make them. But it's poor quality rubbish. Perhaps if you multiply up the number of people it's for then there's a point where home cooking becomes cheaper. Or, of course, you can batch cook and have the same dinner multiple times. But once you factor in fats, proteins and dairy additions to recipes I think the cheap crap ready meals are cheaper. I agree it does depend on how you do it. I often batch cook and freeze, giving me say 4 weeks worth (big portions) of the same dish I can microwave later. Eg. potatoes £1 mince £2 onion 50p Carrots 50p seasoning £1 So £5 for a large shepherds or cottage pie, over 4/6 weeks less than £1 a meal. Of course everyone does it differently there are no right or wrong ways but I would say it is possible to eat reasonably quite cheaply.
Buce Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 11 minutes ago, MattP said: If many people realise this was all a con (as most who voted for a common market in 1975 appeared to have done so by 2016) then you can have another referendum on re-joining and then argue the case for doing so, that's fully fair after the decision to leave has been implemented and the democratic result expected. You are me both know that's a while away though while 85% of the electorate are voting for parties that will implement the decision, there was a chance to have a second referendum just last year had the Lib Dems won, I'm glad they didn't as the fall out from it would have been dreadful. Why would we deny our citizens that right if there is a cry for it? For what's worth it probably won't be there anyway given here and Germany is now about the only place where the young love the European Union, but if it, is go for it. 1 I suspect that is in a state of flux - Corbyn is out of step with the membership over this and may well be forced into a climbdown.
Guest MattP Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 2 minutes ago, Buce said: We have actually found something we agree on. Hallelujah! However... Not everybody has access to cheap, healthy food - I don't know about Stoke on Trent, but Aldi are not widely available in Leicester (I've just checked - the nearest one to me, for example, is over three miles away). Cooking from scratch is time-consuming, and it's reasonable to say that the poorer you are, the less time-rich you are. Whether it's PC to say so or not, there is a close relationship between poverty and education - by definition, poor people are less likely to be educated about food nutrition. There is also a close relationship between poverty and poor mental health, and studies have shown that when depressed, people crave foods high in sugar and fat content. I could go on, but I suspect I'd be wasting my time. Do they still do home economics at school? I remember that being pretty good for me, the things I often cook as a non veg eater like Toad in the Hole, Pie and Mash etc were things I either learnt from Mum in the kitchen or from Mrs Barnfield at Brookvale. I mean it's still not an excuse if not as any good parent should teach their children to cook giving eating is the most important thing in life, but I imagine with some kids it's actually hard to get them interested.
Guest MattP Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 Just now, Buce said: I suspect that is in a state of flux - Corbyn is out of step with the membership over this and may well be forced into a climbdown. He certainly is, but I doubt he'll climbdown, what's the point of his manifesto if the EU just stop him implementing it? There is a reason his Eurosceptic credentials are even stronger than Herr Farage, at least the latter voted for the common market, Corbyn was even against that along with Lisbon, Maastrict etc
Buce Posted 5 June 2018 Posted 5 June 2018 3 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: I agree it does depend on how you do it. I often batch cook and freeze, giving me say 4 weeks worth (big portions) of the same dish I can microwave later. Eg. potatoes £1 mince £2 onion 50p Carrots 50p seasoning £1 So £5 for a large shepherds or cottage pie, over 4/6 weeks less than £1 a meal. Of course everyone does it differently there are no right or wrong ways but I would say it is possible to eat reasonably quite cheaply. So you have a large sized oven, a large sized freezer, and a microwave. You really don't get what being poor means, do you?
Recommended Posts