breadandcheese Posted 6 June 2018 Posted 6 June 2018 24 minutes ago, Buce said: Most politicians, like most economists, like most businessmen, see Brexit for the bad idea that it is; they are only going through with it because they haven't got the balls to ignore the 'will of the people'. I think the point is that brexit is undeliverable unless we decide to exit onto WTO terms.
Guest Posted 6 June 2018 Posted 6 June 2018 (edited) Interesting sort-of-pro-Brexit-in-the-sense-that-it-isn't-exactly-pro-eu piece in the Guardian. He writes them quite often. Might surprise a few of you that slag it of for being overly partisan based on the fact we usually pick the articles that suit our arguments. The actual Guardian line on Brexit is that both sides needs to be realistic to achieve a sensible Brexit (ie more give and take). Think a few of the Brexiters will agree with much of this. The best thing Germany could do for Europe is quit the single currency – but it won’t https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/06/fix-eu-single-currency-does-not-work?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard Edited 6 June 2018 by Guest
breadandcheese Posted 6 June 2018 Posted 6 June 2018 38 minutes ago, toddybad said: Interesting sort-of-pro-Brexit-in-the-sense-that-it-isn't-exactly-pro-eu piece in the Guardian. He writes them quite often. Might surprise a few of you that slag it of for being overly partisan based on the fact we usually pick the articles that suit our arguments. The actual Guardian line on Brexit is that both sides needs to be realistic to achieve a sensible Brexit (ie more give and take). Think a few of the Brexiters will agree with much of this. The best thing Germany could do for Europe is quit the single currency – but it won’t https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/06/fix-eu-single-currency-does-not-work?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard I've always thought Germany exiting the euro to be the most sensible option to fix the schism between Northern and Southern Europe. However, politically it is impossible. Not least because splitting off and taking Austria and the Netherlands with it in order to make a Deutschmark 2, would have some difficult historical connotations. We underestimate the historical guilt that Germany carries about WW2.
Guest Posted 6 June 2018 Posted 6 June 2018 13 minutes ago, breadandcheese said: I've always thought Germany exiting the euro to be the most sensible option to fix the schism between Northern and Southern Europe. However, politically it is impossible. Not least because splitting off and taking Austria and the Netherlands with it in order to make a Deutschmark 2, would have some difficult historical connotations. We underestimate the historical guilt that Germany carries about WW2. The idea that ultra strong countries and very weak countries could all share one money and one monetary policy was always a bit strange tbh. Pretty sure I'd worked that out in my teens.
Alf Bentley Posted 6 June 2018 Posted 6 June 2018 53 minutes ago, toddybad said: Interesting sort-of-pro-Brexit-in-the-sense-that-it-isn't-exactly-pro-eu piece in the Guardian. He writes them quite often. Might surprise a few of you that slag it of for being overly partisan based on the fact we usually pick the articles that suit our arguments. The actual Guardian line on Brexit is that both sides needs to be realistic to achieve a sensible Brexit (ie more give and take). Think a few of the Brexiters will agree with much of this. The best thing Germany could do for Europe is quit the single currency – but it won’t https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/06/fix-eu-single-currency-does-not-work?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard Excellent article - highly recommended. Larry Elliott, the Guardian Economics Editor, who wrote the article supported Brexit before the referendum campaign - on very similar grounds. He's very critical of the EU, and the organisation of the Eurozone, in particular - and his criticisms are largely justified. Elliott's articles before the referendum were one of the main things that had me seriously considering voting Leave. Here's the main one, from a month before the referendum, which still reads well to me: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/20/brexit-best-answer-to-dying-eurozone-eu-undemocratic-elite I'm very pessimistic about where Brexit will take us, particularly under this govt. But I'm also pretty pessimistic about where the EU is heading - unless it makes some major reforms along the lines advocated by Elliott. The linked article by Gordon Brown, calling for the concerns of Leave voters, particularly migration, to be properly addressed is also very good: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/05/gordon-brown-calls-for-tougher-controls-on-migration
Strokes Posted 6 June 2018 Posted 6 June 2018 1 hour ago, toddybad said: Interesting sort-of-pro-Brexit-in-the-sense-that-it-isn't-exactly-pro-eu piece in the Guardian. He writes them quite often. Might surprise a few of you that slag it of for being overly partisan based on the fact we usually pick the articles that suit our arguments. The actual Guardian line on Brexit is that both sides needs to be realistic to achieve a sensible Brexit (ie more give and take). Think a few of the Brexiters will agree with much of this. The best thing Germany could do for Europe is quit the single currency – but it won’t https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/06/fix-eu-single-currency-does-not-work?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard Oh look another remainer that wants reform, do all remainers want the same type of remain? 2
Alf Bentley Posted 6 June 2018 Posted 6 June 2018 1 minute ago, Strokes said: Oh look another remainer that wants reform, do all remainers want the same type of remain? As per my post just before yours, Larry Elliott, who wrote the article, was a prominent Left Brexiteer from before the referendum - see the May 2016 link that I've just attached.
Strokes Posted 6 June 2018 Posted 6 June 2018 1 minute ago, Alf Bentley said: As per my post just before yours, Larry Elliott, who wrote the article, was a prominent Left Brexiteer from before the referendum - see the May 2016 link that I've just attached. I’ll read it when I get a bit of time Alf, I was just being a bit cheeky whilst breaking from packing my house. I move on Friday so I’m hiding from the wife for 10 minutes . 1
Guest Posted 6 June 2018 Posted 6 June 2018 13 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Excellent article - highly recommended. Larry Elliott, the Guardian Economics Editor, who wrote the article supported Brexit before the referendum campaign - on very similar grounds. He's very critical of the EU, and the organisation of the Eurozone, in particular - and his criticisms are largely justified. Elliott's articles before the referendum were one of the main things that had me seriously considering voting Leave. Here's the main one, from a month before the referendum, which still reads well to me: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/20/brexit-best-answer-to-dying-eurozone-eu-undemocratic-elite I'm very pessimistic about where Brexit will take us, particularly under this govt. But I'm also pretty pessimistic about where the EU is heading - unless it makes some major reforms along the lines advocated by Elliott. The linked article by Gordon Brown, calling for the concerns of Leave voters, particularly migration, to be properly addressed is also very good: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/05/gordon-brown-calls-for-tougher-controls-on-migration Can't really argue with this. My big issue with Brexit is that we're going to end up worse off. It's going to affect ordinary people negatively. It's unforgivable. However there are a lot of reasonable arguments against the EU in its current form. I prefer to think that the EU's heart is in the right place (given that the legislation it enacts is overwhelmingly supportive towards ordinary people in comparison to our own laws - working time directive, human rights, GDPR etc) but he does have some convincing arguments for change. But then you have to think that change will come because the EU can't not react to what we're seeing across Europe at the moment. There is a clear anti-EU, anti-establishment line being taken up everywhere. I tend to think it's quite dangerous given what we've seen historically. The EU is imo a force for good overall. I'd still rather be in it than out of it but I think everybody would prefer it to see change.
Alf Bentley Posted 6 June 2018 Posted 6 June 2018 2 minutes ago, Strokes said: I’ll read it when I get a bit of time Alf, I was just being a bit cheeky whilst breaking from packing my house. I move on Friday so I’m hiding from the wife for 10 minutes . Worth reading, mate, both the article Toddy posted and the 2016 article that I added - not your typical Grauniad Remainer fare, if that's what you were thinking. I'm sure the Gordon Brown article calling for strong policies on migration will attract a few cynical comments, after the mass influx of Poles under Blair - but his ideas are very good, IMHO. Couldn't you just hide in a packing box until Friday, reading FT on your laptop and wait for your wife to carry you to the new place. I'm sure she won't notice your absence - and it'll be a nice surprise for her when you pop out at the new gaff. 1
Webbo Posted 6 June 2018 Posted 6 June 2018 17 minutes ago, Strokes said: I’ll read it when I get a bit of time Alf, I was just being a bit cheeky whilst breaking from packing my house. I move on Friday so I’m hiding from the wife for 10 minutes . Where are you moving to?
Alf Bentley Posted 6 June 2018 Posted 6 June 2018 3 minutes ago, toddybad said: Can't really argue with this. My big issue with Brexit is that we're going to end up worse off. It's going to affect ordinary people negatively. It's unforgivable. However there are a lot of reasonable arguments against the EU in its current form. I prefer to think that the EU's heart is in the right place (given that the legislation it enacts is overwhelmingly supportive towards ordinary people in comparison to our own laws - working time directive, human rights, GDPR etc) but he does have some convincing arguments for change. But then you have to think that change will come because the EU can't not react to what we're seeing across Europe at the moment. There is a clear anti-EU, anti-establishment line being taken up everywhere. I tend to think it's quite dangerous given what we've seen historically. The EU is imo a force for good overall. I'd still rather be in it than out of it but I think everybody would prefer it to see change. Yes, I ended up in the Remain camp essentially because I was more sure that Brexit was bad for our future than that the EU was - and had a bit more hope that the EU would reform the damaging structures of EMU/Stability Pact etc. My Remain vote certainly wasn't a vote of thanks for the current state of the EU or a vote of confidence. As it happens, Brexit could turn out to be even worse than I was expecting (if we end up with a Hard Brexit or No Deal). But, by the same token, the EU hasn't done much reforming yet, and Merkel may no longer have the domestic strength to push through reforms that will be unpopular in Germany. The EU has had a bit of an economic upturn since the referendum, but that might just be cyclical. In the meantime, there's still mass unemployment in Spain, economic/political instability in Italy, deprivation in Greece (even if it's leveled off a bit) and still hardship in Ireland due to enforced austerity, although the Irish economy has bounced back on a national level. Plus, the Far Right / populists remain a strong minority in many countries, even if they haven't yet achieved power on the scale that looked possible a couple of years ago. Of course, Brexit will mean the EU taking a further hit, too - not as big a hit as us, but it's not in great shape to take any hit....
Strokes Posted 6 June 2018 Posted 6 June 2018 2 minutes ago, Webbo said: Where are you moving to? Cosby, found a nice house in a cul de sac where the kids can play out. It should be nice. I’ve got to drive back every morning for five weeks because the kids don’t move schools until the summer holidays, which is a ballache. 1
Webbo Posted 6 June 2018 Posted 6 June 2018 4 minutes ago, Strokes said: Cosby, found a nice house in a cul de sac where the kids can play out. It should be nice. I’ve got to drive back every morning for five weeks because the kids don’t move schools until the summer holidays, which is a ballache. That's the other side of the county. That's got to be a long drive.
Strokes Posted 6 June 2018 Posted 6 June 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Webbo said: That's the other side of the county. That's got to be a long drive. Yeah I know, we were not planning it this way but we put our house on before even finding somewhere, the buyers wanted it done quick and were prepared to pay extra for it to happen, so small price to pay for an extra £7500. I don’t pay for my fuel and work are flexible, so it’s the right thing to do for the kids tbh. Edited 6 June 2018 by Strokes 1
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 15 hours ago, Buce said: Most politicians, like most economists, like most businessmen, see Brexit for the bad idea that it is; they are only going through with it because they haven't got the balls to ignore the 'will of the people'. Corbyn and McDonnell deep within themselves want Brexit, they always have and always will. Europe is part of the so called elitist system they want to 'bring down'. They do not want to be told what to do by Brussels they want to run the show.
Jon the Hat Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 Clearly the Government are making a huge mess of Brexit, for a number of reasons, however I still believe we are simply getting ahead of the game as the EU in its current form wont last more than a decade, and the fallout from it's collapse could be much worse than Brexit. I don't to be honest see the EU as a force for good, I see it as run by federalists who want to centralise everything, rather than trusting that governments can move towards with social & political change and evolve by themselves without a massive centralised Bureaucracy to force compromise regulation on them all. It is expensive, slow moving and horribly restrictive in many ways, and if the price of avoiding the forthcoming collapse as a member is to lead the way and suffer in the short term then so be it. Meanwhile I am long past having patience with May, and I would like to see an election in the Autumn, and a BREXIT coalition running the show, what that looks like I am not sure, but it has to be better than what this Tory compromise is currently dealing out. 4
leicsmac Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 26 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: Clearly the Government are making a huge mess of Brexit, for a number of reasons, however I still believe we are simply getting ahead of the game as the EU in its current form wont last more than a decade, and the fallout from it's collapse could be much worse than Brexit. I don't to be honest see the EU as a force for good, I see it as run by federalists who want to centralise everything, rather than trusting that governments can move towards with social & political change and evolve by themselves without a massive centralised Bureaucracy to force compromise regulation on them all. It is expensive, slow moving and horribly restrictive in many ways, and if the price of avoiding the forthcoming collapse as a member is to lead the way and suffer in the short term then so be it. Meanwhile I am long past having patience with May, and I would like to see an election in the Autumn, and a BREXIT coalition running the show, what that looks like I am not sure, but it has to be better than what this Tory compromise is currently dealing out. 4 I can see why you think that as the EU does have massive bureaucratic problems and the slow-moving part is a really big issue in of itself - it sometimes simply doesn't respond to a local issue quickly enough. That being said, I'd say a lack of trust towards national government wrt moving forward with social and political change is perhaps warranted given the history of the actions of such governments and their track records on such changes.
Sharpe's Fox Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 C’mon DD take one for the team and resign don’t be a wuss
Guest Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 10 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said: C’mon DD take one for the team and resign don’t be a wuss And lose the limelight?
Guest Foxin_mad Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 10 minutes ago, toddybad said: Someone has it right in the comments section. This isn't just a UK problem, neither left or right can solve it. http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2017/09/world/germany-food-bank-cnnphotos/ http://blogs.worldbank.org/developmenttalk/increasingly-inequality-within-not-across-countries-rising Again Corbyn is making this a UK problem, its a global problem. I'm sure there are some equal problems in some of the Socialist countries he would like us to emulate.
Guest Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Foxin_mad said: Someone has it right in the comments section. This isn't just a UK problem, neither left or right can solve it. http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2017/09/world/germany-food-bank-cnnphotos/ http://blogs.worldbank.org/developmenttalk/increasingly-inequality-within-not-across-countries-rising Again Corbyn is making this a UK problem, its a global problem. I'm sure there are some equal problems in some of the Socialist countries he would like us to emulate. There is a global element to the issue, that is true, as financial systems/ stocks etc cross borders and need international reform. But changes to benefit rules (which impacts working people more negatively than the positive effects of tax changes), reductions in workers rights and the systematic dismantling of terms and conditions which had left millions in insecure employment are all UK produced problems with UK based solutions. Food Bank usage has multiplied by a very large factor because of austerity politics. There's no getting away from that. This is what the right have voted for. Edited 7 June 2018 by Guest
Alf Bentley Posted 7 June 2018 Posted 7 June 2018 2 hours ago, Sharpe's Fox said: C’mon DD take one for the team and resign don’t be a wuss Sounds as if there's been another fudge to maintain Tory unity and kick the can a bit further down the road: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44391539 The backstop will be "expected to" end in December 2021.....that wording sounds a bit vague, legally. If they try to have that inserted into the Brexit agreement with any legal force, I presume the EU will tell them where to go. At this rate, the fudging and can-kicking could carry on right through to October, at least.....but a mighty conflict has to happen before March 2019. In fact, probably several massive conflicts: within the Tory party, between the UK and EU, possibly between the Tories and DUP, possibly within the Labour Party, possibly even within the EU27.... Double Diamond might have worked wonders, but DD doesn't....
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