Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, ealingfox said:

Remain wasn't an unknown quantity so not sure why people think voters were uninformed about it - we'd all lived through it for 40 years.

 

We've all lived through decades of global capitalism and decades in possession of a TV set.

Doesn't mean that we're all well informed about the international economy and how a TV set works.

 

Two quick examples: A lot of people complain about "Brussels telling us what to do" and about "the UK paying more than its fair share to the EU budget"

- The first is factually wrong. EU political decisions are taken by some combination of the European Council/Council of the EU (UK PM or ministers making agreements with other EU govts) & the directly-elected European Parliament

- On the second, did any UK politicians ever explain why it was fair that, as a richer EU country, we were net contributors (based on national income, as per personal income tax), or why it might be beneficial to us - helping poorer countries to grow, remain stable, provide us with export markets and eventually take on more of the EU budget (e.g. Ireland was always a net recipient, but is now set to be a net contributor as it has got richer)?

 

With a few exceptions, UK politicians concentrated on bigging themselves up for "standing up for Britain against the EU" - and did not accept joint responsibility for controversial EU actions to which they had agreed.

 

I'm not denying that there are all sorts of arguments against the EU: pros & cons of national/pooled sovereignty (inc. ECJ), pros & cons of freedom of movement, over-rigid rules on monetary policy/deficit/debt, excessive focus on agriculture etc.

 

While Leave politicians told bare-faced lies, I'm mainly criticising Remain politicians dating back decades for not being honest about the EU and accepting responsibility for joint decisions and making the positive case for the EU, despite its defects. We might have lived with Remain for 40 years but we were still very under-informed about it. Partly our own fault as voters, partly down to poor media coverage, partly the fault of the EU & MEPs for not making better connections and promoting their activities - but partly the fault of national politicians too ready to allow the EU to be used as a scapegoat for problems and too unready to defend it or to take responsibility for joint decisions they'd taken at the European Council(s). They're doing the same now over social care for the elderly - cynically keeping national taxes low (to get personal credit) by running down local govt funds so that social care goes to shite (for which they can pass the buck to councils).

[leicsmac]

1 hour ago, Buce said:

 

How are things in that regard, Mac?

One day at a time, pretty much Buce. Think it's going to take a while to sort my head and everything else out, but one day at a time.

 

40 minutes ago, Kopfkino said:

 

I think it's an admirable viewpoint, I certainly wouldn't want to discourage anyone thinking beyond their lifetime but there is a limit. We have different world views and yours is always interesting but I find it frustrating that its near always defined by the bad things humans do and the consequence of that. Certainly are steps we should be taking that we are failing to take and I absolutely support your frustration of politicians not standing up to the big oil lobby or being ambivalent about the consequences of our actions etc but I'm just not sure a discussion about direct democracy warrants it. 

 

On the point of direct democracy:

Well that's it, we can never be fully informed about the consequences of our decisions. Buce's article in the exercise thread demonstrates that, in the past people were told to increase protein consumption, now we're more sceptical of that. So even science doesn't always know when it thinks it does, let alone social outcomes that depend on subsequent behaviour. Of course direct democracy does require an engaged polity that tries to be informed, and it needs to adapt to its decisions rather than know the consequence of its decision. Take an economics example, if you, ceteris paribus, accurately forecast a financial crisis in 2 years, the forecast will be wrong because behaviour adapts and one of two things happens: its worse than you predicted or it doesn't happen. Either way, what could have been accurate information turns out to be wrong because we adapt. And decisions have to made, but you can't know what the future is whether you're expert or pauper. I think the value of democracy is in its process rather than its outcome so I prefer pauper to decide the consequences they face rather than the expert. I think you're right in saying in having the freedom to decide we are also free to suffer the consequences. 

 

Anyway all the best with your personal situation. It's always a strange experience when I'm back home and nip into Hinckley for some reason, always some odd event that makes me smile. 

Yeah...I'm sorry if I appear misanthropic most of the time - honestly, I'm no nihilist, quite the opposite actually, I want humanity to be the best it can be and survive for as long as possible, which is why the self-defeating behaviour bugs me so often.

 

The point of the value of democracy being in the process rather than the outcome is a really salient one.

 

And thanks.

[Buce]

19 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

One day at a time, pretty much Buce. Think it's going to take a while to sort my head and everything else out, but one day at a time.

 

 

1

 

That's probably a sound approach, Mac.

 

Good luck.

[Webbo]

None of us were well enough informed , remain or leave, to decide how to vote but the remain voters are well enough informed to tell the rest of us we're wrong? 

 

It's just more bullshit from people who can't accept they lost.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Webbo said:

None of us were well enough informed , remain or leave, to decide how to vote but the remain voters are well enough informed to tell the rest of us we're wrong? 

 

It's just more bullshit from people who can't accept they lost.

Remain was what we already had. What extra info did we need?

[Guest MattP]

7 minutes ago, Webbo said:

None of us were well enough informed , remain or leave, to decide how to vote but the remain voters are well enough informed to tell the rest of us we're wrong? 

 

It's just more bullshit from people who can't accept they lost.

The ones who often accuse people of being ill-informed sometimes come across as the most ill-informed .It's quite bizarre to see people wanting Jermeny Corbyn and John McDonnell led policies but then also wanting to remain in the European Union which will all but stop those same policies being implemented.

 

At least @Sharpe's Fox realises you need to be out of the European Union to achieve the socialist society that these policies intend to create. A couple either (somehow) don't realise this (given the campaign and voting record of JC etc) or for some reason are jusy being wilfully ignorant of it.

Edited 4 June 2018 by MattP

[Guest]

 

[Webbo]

4 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Remain was what we already had. What extra info did we need?

Exactly, we didn't like the EU so we voted for out. We were all plenty well informed.

[Guest]

 

 

 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Exactly, we didn't like the EU so we voted for out. We were all plenty well informed.

Tbh Webbo I doubt that you're particularly well informed when it comes to planning your weekly shop, let alone Brexit.

Edited 4 June 2018 by Guest

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

Tbh Webbo I doubt that you're particularly well informed when it comes to planning your weekly shop, let alone Brexit.

 

Personal attacks Toddy? Bit weak.

[Guest MattP]

12 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Exactly, we didn't like the EU so we voted for out. We were all plenty well informed.

A lot of people actually didn't need to know the details to any great extent. If you are of the belief that the British parliament and only the British parliament should make the decisions on things like trade, laws etc for the British parliament then you voted to bring those powers fully back here, it's now possible the government won't do that but It doesn't really matter long term anyway, British attitude towards is is very different, the young here might be pro-EU but on the continent it's the other way around.

 

One person who escapes the blame for all this but who deserves it is Nick Clegg, there was never really masses of public debate about the issue until he took those debates with Farage on television and got his ass kicked, the growth of UKIP and the campaign really spiralled from that.

Once all the pro-EU gammons in Italy, Spain, France etc die off they'll be no Union left anyway.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, MattP said:

A lot of people actually didn't need to know the details to any great extent. If you are of the belief that the British parliament and only the British parliament should make the decisions on things like trade, laws etc for the British parliament then you voted to bring those powers fully back here, it's now possible the government won't do that but It doesn't really matter long term anyway, British attitude towards is is very different, the young here might be pro-EU but on the continent it's the other way around.

 

One person who escapes the blame for all this but who deserves it is Nick Clegg, there was never really masses of public debate about the issue until he took those debates with Farage on television and got his ass kicked, the growth of UKIP and the campaign really spiralled from that.

Once all the pro-EU gammons in Italy, Spain, France etc die off they'll be no Union left anyway.

It's just anti establishment feeling due to the way ordinary people across Europe have been exposed to austerity by national governments feeding wealth.

 

I'm more interested in the reasons for your silence over tory islamaphobia given how vocal you were regarding labour antisemitism.

Edited 4 June 2018 by Guest

[Webbo]

1 minute ago, toddybad said:

It's just anti establishment feeling due to the way ordinary people across Europe have been exposed to austerity by national governments feeding wealth.

A lot of that austerity was imposed by the EU.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

A lot of that austerity was imposed by the EU.

Some of it perhaps, where the EU loaned money to bail out Greece, for example. And I wouldn't necessarily defend that. You can't blame the Greeks for having a problem with the EU. But it didn't impose it upon us. We've done remarkably well out of the EU. Pine of my biggest issues is that it's the older generation that have effectively stripped the younger generation of EU membership against their wishes when it's the young that will have to live with an the negative consequences. The retired - who overwhelmingly voted leave and tell us it's worth the pain - aren't going to be affected in anything like the same way as the already beleaguered younger generation.

[Guest MattP]

3 minutes ago, toddybad said:

It's just anti establishment feeling due to the way ordinary people across Europe have been exposed to austerity by national governments feeding wealth.

 

I'm more interested in the reasons for your silence over tory islamaphobia given how vocal you were regarding labour antisemitism.

 

And who imposed a lot of that austerity Toddy? The feeling is just anti-establishment though? Seriously naive.

 

"Islamophobia" doesn't exist, it's a buzzword used by people to try and shut down any debate of the religion, Richard Dawkins nailed that straight away.

 

If there are Tories who are being bigoted towards Muslims then we should certainly investigate that. Warsi can bring the evidence forward.

 

Laughable to even try and compare it to Labour though, when the Tories have high profile figures being suspended, protests by MP's outside of parliament, Islsmic countries breaking off contact with the party, Theresa May alomgside bigots in Britain First Facebook groups and hundreds of members under investigation you can do though, as then it will be comparable.

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Some of it perhaps, where the EU loaned money to bail out Greece, for example. And I wouldn't necessarily defend that. You can't blame the Greeks for having a problem with the EU. But it didn't impose it upon us. We've done remarkably well out of the EU. Pine of my biggest issues is that it's the older generation that have effectively stripped the younger generation of EU membership against their wishes when it's the young that will have to live with an the negative consequences. The retired - who overwhelmingly voted leave and tell us it's worth the pain - aren't going to be affected in anything like the same way as the already beleaguered younger generation.

It didn't impose it on us because we weren't in the Euro. Something that the Europhiles told us would be a disaster if we didn't join.

 

You make it sound like everybody over a certain age voted leave and everybody under that age voted remain, that's utter bullshit as this thread proves. 

 

[Guest Kopfkino]

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

Remain was what we already had. What extra info did we need?

 

But you weren't voting to be in the past EU, you were voting to be in the future EU for which I can confidently assert pretty much all remain voters do not know what the future of the EU is. 

[Alf Bentley]

2 hours ago, Webbo said:

A lot of that austerity was imposed by the EU.

 

1 hour ago, toddybad said:

Some of it perhaps, where the EU loaned money to bail out Greece, for example. And I wouldn't necessarily defend that. You can't blame the Greeks for having a problem with the EU. But it didn't impose it upon us. We've done remarkably well out of the EU. Pine of my biggest issues is that it's the older generation that have effectively stripped the younger generation of EU membership against their wishes when it's the young that will have to live with an the negative consequences. The retired - who overwhelmingly voted leave and tell us it's worth the pain - aren't going to be affected in anything like the same way as the already beleaguered younger generation.

 

A rep point apiece for the Left-Right Anti-Austerity Alliance on this one. The EU bears much of the blame for austerity, hardship and kneejerk nationalism on the continent - and the Tories bear the blame in the UK.

Good to see you joining the Socialist cause, Webbo! 

 

 

2 hours ago, toddybad said:

Remain was what we already had. What extra info did we need?

 

2 hours ago, Webbo said:

Exactly, we didn't like the EU so we voted for out. We were all plenty well informed.

 

.....and completely disagree with both elements of the Left-Right Alliance on this one. 

 

We were all severely under-informed about the EU, not just during the referendum campaign but during the previous decades of membership. Some blame can be assigned to the Leave campaign for being a bunch of cynical, lying scumbags, but an awful lot of the blame lies at the door, not only of the Remain campaign with its equally cynical Project Fear campaign. But also of pro-EU UK politicians over many years who didn't make a case for the EU or defend it, preferring to depict the EU as an enemy against whom they were nobly "protecting British interests" or to use it as a scapegoat to distract voters from blaming them. Plenty of blame to go around, though.....including to the EU for not doing enough to connect with voters to explain what they did and why, plus our dog-shite papers with their brain-dead nationalism - and us lot, the insular British public, who didn't do enough to inform ourselves.

[Alf Bentley]

2 hours ago, Webbo said:

It didn't impose it on us because we weren't in the Euro. Something that the Europhiles told us would be a disaster if we didn't join.

 

You make it sound like everybody over a certain age voted leave and everybody under that age voted remain, that's utter bullshit as this thread proves. 

 

 

Come on, Webbo, be fair! Only some Europhiles told you that it would be a disaster if we didn't join the Euro.

 

The decision not to join the Euro - based on the famous "5 economic tests" - was taken by a Europhile Labour Govt with a massive majority.

 

Admittedly, Blair might well have preferred us to join anyway, but fortunately St. Gordon was on hand.

Not only did Brown preside over the end of boom and bust (well, er, almost) and save the world from the Global Capitalist Crisis of 2008......but he also saved Britain from the Euro!

You should be on your knees worshiping the man, Webster. 

 

 

As for Tory Islamophobia, I'll mainly stay out of that for now as I've been gassing too much recently.

If there's evidence (and I'm sure there is), then it should be produced, investigated and acted on fairly - just as it should with accusations of Labour antisemitism.

 

On a less serious note, is it very wrong that my main emotional response to this is a warm glow of delight that Sexy Sayeeda is back on our screens with her luscious curves, beautiful bouffant hair, deep dark eyes and erotic Yorkshire accent?

Sorry to be a trivial, sexist pig - and I'm glad she's standing up on a worthwhile cause - but she really is my top Tory pinup these days (closely followed by Penny Mordaunt).

Edited 4 June 2018 by Alf Bentley

[Webbo]

21 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

 

A rep point apiece for the Left-Right Anti-Austerity Alliance on this one. The EU bears much of the blame for austerity, hardship and kneejerk nationalism on the continent - and the Tories bear the blame in the UK.

Good to see you joining the Socialist cause, Webbo! 

 

 

 

 

.....and completely disagree with both elements of the Left-Right Alliance on this one. 

 

We were all severely under-informed about the EU, not just during the referendum campaign but during the previous decades of membership. Some blame can be assigned to the Leave campaign for being a bunch of cynical, lying scumbags, but an awful lot of the blame lies at the door, not only of the Remain campaign with its equally cynical Project Fear campaign. But also of pro-EU UK politicians over many years who didn't make a case for the EU or defend it, preferring to depict the EU as an enemy against whom they were nobly "protecting British interests" or to use it as a scapegoat to distract voters from blaming them. Plenty of blame to go around, though.....including to the EU for not doing enough to connect with voters to explain what they did and why, plus our dog-shite papers with their brain-dead nationalism - and us lot, the insular British public, who didn't do enough to inform ourselves.

I'm not anti austerity, I'm just anti it being imposed by unelected foreigners. A lot of these countries gave up their right to complain when they joined the Euro, that's their problem it's just Toddy tells us that austerity or living within your means as it's normally called, is a terrible thing and at the same time tells us that the EU is nothing but kindness personified. He can't have it both ways.

 

If we're all under informed then nobody can tell me I'm wrong as they are just as under- informed as me.

[Alf Bentley]

4 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I'm not anti austerity, I'm just anti it being imposed by unelected foreigners. A lot of these countries gave up their right to complain when they joined the Euro, that's their problem it's just Toddy tells us that austerity or living within your means as it's normally called, is a terrible thing and at the same time tells us that the EU is nothing but kindness personified. He can't have it both ways.

 

If we're all under informed then nobody can tell me I'm wrong as they are just as under- informed as me.

 

Er, I didn't seriously think you'd turned against austerity, hence the winking emoji and reference to you joining the Socialist cause.

And it's not just Toddy who tells you that austerity, or brain-dead Neanderthal economics as it should be called, is a terrible thing. Several other people, including me, tell you that - and you disagree, as is your entitlement.

 

There is no logical inevitability in your last comment. It's possible that we're all under-informed but some are more under-informed than others. Thus, those who are particularly under-informed might still have something to learn from the rest.

Anyway, can't elaborate now as I've got to go to the shops. I failed to plan my shopping adequately this week. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Webbo said:

I'm not anti austerity, I'm just anti it being imposed by unelected foreigners. A lot of these countries gave up their right to complain when they joined the Euro, that's their problem it's just Toddy tells us that austerity or living within your means as it's normally called, is a terrible thing and at the same time tells us that the EU is nothing but kindness personified. He can't have it both ways.

 

If we're all under informed then nobody can tell me I'm wrong as they are just as under- informed as me.

Practically every economist in the western world would tell you that austerity is self-defeating and the wrong policy at the wrong time.

[Webbo]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Practically every economist in the western world would tell you that austerity is self-defeating and the wrong policy at the wrong time.

Every? 

 

Considering you've been telling us for years that austerity and then Brexit meant certain armageddon I don't think we're doing bad. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Every? 

 

Considering you've been telling us for years that austerity and then Brexit meant certain armageddon I don't think we're doing bad. 

Is the word practically invisible in my post?

 

But you'd struggle to find much of an argument for austerity amongst economists. 

 

And we're doing terribly mate. Wages less than they are 10 years ago. For you as long as we aren't all eating gruel it's all hunky dory. I want a bit more than that for my fellow countrymen.

Edited 4 June 2018 by Guest