Politics Thread (encompassing Brexit) - 21 June 2017 onwards

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Tbf to lush, they kind of made their name from ethical campaigns so the argument some are using that it isn’t their place is misguided imo. 

I think it’s a bit of a niche area, I mean how many undercover police are actively behaving inappropriately, half a dozen, a score? It’s hardly far reaching.

The set up in the store with the police tape isn’t very clear and does look like an anti police campaign too........ I’d say a bit of an own goal for lush tbh.

Yeah, agreed that they didn't really frame this in the best way and that they were too generalised.

 

That being said, the whole culture of infiltration of anti-establishment organisations in order to make sure they don't rock the boat annoys the hell out of me (COINTELPRO was an example of the US doing that on a massive scale) as it smacks way too much of making sure everything is cushty for those still in that establishment most of the time rather than actually protecting the public IMO.

[Strokes]

37 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, agreed that they didn't really frame this in the best way and that they were too generalised.

 

That being said, the whole culture of infiltration of anti-establishment organisations in order to make sure they don't rock the boat annoys the hell out of me (COINTELPRO was an example of the US doing that on a massive scale) as it smacks way too much of making sure everything is cushty for those still in that establishment most of the time rather than actually protecting the public IMO.

It’s a grey area imo, often these extreme groups meet extreme people and have extreme plans (even if good intentioned). We might need someone on the inside.

[Sharpe's Fox]

I’m sure lush’s sales will take a massive hit when the gammon go buy their bath bombs and aloe soap bars elsewhere. As if we are meant to believe the police are some benign institution who can do no wrong anyway. They have consistently worked to hamstring working class causes over the last 50 years.

[Alf Bentley]

53 minutes ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

I’m sure lush’s sales will take a massive hit when the gammon go buy their bath bombs and aloe soap bars elsewhere. As if we are meant to believe the police are some benign institution who can do no wrong anyway. They have consistently worked to hamstring working class causes over the last 50 years.

 

Surely it was the gammons who hamstrung working-class causes?

Still, if buying a pineapple bath bomb eliminates the risk of getting caught by the fuzz, maybe that's a good thing.

[Sharpe's Fox]

27 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Surely it was the gammons who hamstrung working-class causes?

Still, if buying a pineapple bath bomb eliminates the risk of getting caught by the fuzz, maybe that's a good thing.

How can it be tolerated that police have more resource to investigate environmentalists, trade unionists or human rights campaigners and ignore mafia and fraudulent business practice in our capital? Very troubling imo.

[Buce]

31 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

Surely it was the gammons who hamstrung working-class causes?

Still, if buying a pineapple bath bomb eliminates the risk of getting caught by the fuzz, maybe that's a good thing.

 

 

1 hour ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

I’m sure lush’s sales will take a massive hit when the gammon go buy their bath bombs and aloe soap bars elsewhere. As if we are meant to believe the police are some benign institution who can do no wrong anyway. They have consistently worked to hamstring working class causes over the last 50 years.

1

 

I could be wrong, Alf, but it reads like irony to me.

 

The 'gammons' are not the customer base that uses Lush, in my experience, and going on how much Mrs Buce and teenage Bucette spends there, I'm pretty sure I must be a shareholder...

[Guest]

 

 

[Alf Bentley]

41 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

 

I could be wrong, Alf, but it reads like irony to me.

 

The 'gammons' are not the customer base that uses Lush, in my experience, and going on how much Mrs Buce and teenage Bucette spends there, I'm pretty sure I must be a shareholder...

 

I know. I was just messing about in moment of boredom......"gammons/hamstrung", "bath/fuzz" etc.

I go off on a playful tangent sometimes.....and end up losing myself, never mind other people. 

 

I'm not sure what I think of the issue of undercover police infiltration. On the one hand, Sharpe's is right to say that the police have been used politically to undermine anti-establishment campaigns - from the miners' strike to anti-globalist and environmental campaigns, among others. On the other hand, I can see an argument for undercover work where it's used not politically against democratic/popular campaigns but to gather intelligence so as to prevent serious crimes or identify perpetrators after the event. I'd hope that there are police/intelligence agents infiltrating Islamist groups that might get involved in terror plots - likewise if organised violence by the Far Right or anyone else becomes a problem.

 

I appreciate that there's a grey area: e.g. direct action that is non-violent but illegal, such as occupying premises, trespass, blockading roads etc. Maybe people planning such bona fide protests just need to be very careful they know who they reveal their plans to? They already accept the legal consequences if they get arrested for carrying out such protests/campaigns.

 

I'd be pretty cynical about Lush, though - a bit of right-on self-marketing that helps their corporate brand and boosts profits, isn't it? I'm a scruff who never enters such shops, anyway, so can't say it bothers me.

[Guest]

[Guest]

The Sunday Times.

 

 

[Strokes]

Is this the start of Gove’s bid to unseat May? 

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/02/replace-theresa-may-with-michael-gove-tory-donor-says-brexit-uk-news

 

[Guest]

 

[Buce]

9 minutes ago, toddybad said:

 

 

Let's be honest - the British people haven't a clue what they voted for.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

Let's be honest - the British people haven't a clue what they voted for.

48% of them have 

[Webbo]

32 minutes ago, toddybad said:

48% of them have 

You lost mate. Get over it.

[Jimothy]

5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

You lost mate. Get over it.

We all lost, you just haven't realised yet.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

You lost mate. Get over it.

You voted for something different to strokes who voted for something different to Matt who voted different to sharpe's fox. 

 

You'll notice the Brexit you bang on about of different to the point farage was banging on about to leave voters before you voted.

 

A second ref is coming my friend. If leavers win again, fair enough. If they don't I'm looking forward to your meltdown ?

[Webbo]

7 minutes ago, Facecloth said:

We all lost, you just haven't realised yet.

Not me, I'm glad we're leaving.

[Jimothy]

5 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Not me, I'm glad we're leaving.

Exactly, you haven't realised yet. ?

[Buce]

Tory Remainers could hold the key to 86 of the party’s seats

Survey suggests leading MPs are at risk from pursuit of hard Brexit

 

More than 80 Conservative MPs face a major electoral challenge as a result of Theresa May’s pursuit of a hard Brexit, a major new study reveals.

In an analysis that exposes the scale of the party’s support from voters who backed Remain, it found that 3.5 million people in Britain voted to remain in the European Union in 2016 and then went on to back the Conservatives in last year’s election.

More than a million live in London and the south-east, with another 800,000 living in either the east of England or the south-west. It means there are significant areas of the country in which the party will have to hold on to Remain voters if they are to protect the seats from Labour or the Liberal Democrats.

 

The study, compiled using data from a 175,000-strong panel set up by pollsters YouGov, estimates that there are 86 Conservative-held constituencies where the number of Tory voters who backed Remain exceeds the party’s current majority.

Tories at risk include Amber Rudd in Hastings and Rye, Zac Goldsmith in Richmond Park, Paul Masterton in East Renfrewshire and Justine Greening in Putney.

The study makes clear that, while there has been much attention on voters in Labour heartlands who backed Brexit, the Tories also have an issue with voters who backed Remain. Recent evidence from the British Election Study suggests Conservative Remainers are more likely to care about Brexit than Labour Leavers.

In a sign of the crucial role to be played by Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Tory leader seen as a future national leader, the seats in question include 12 out of its 13 in Scotland. Davidson previously backed a softer Brexit than the one advocated by the prime minister. Last week, she also called for a Brexit that did not “raise the drawbridge and pull down the shutters”.

Other constituencies in which the Tory Remainer vote exceeds the party’s majority include six out of eight of its Welsh constituencies, more than half of the party’s 20 constituencies in north-west England and more than half of its 21 seats in London.

The study, by former Labour strategists Ian Warren and Kevin Cunningham of Election Data, also includes a worrying trend for the Tories in local byelections in areas with high levels of pro-Remain Conservatives.

In the east of England, south-east and south-west, the Conservatives have lost more than a third (68 out of 168) of the local byelections it was defending. More than half were lost to the Lib Dems, who are backing a referendum on the final Brexit deal.

It will give pause for thought to Tory MPs and the party’s high command as it attempts to form an electoral coalition able to deliver a majority. Senior Tories are openly pushing for a “sensible Brexit”, a compromise to soften the government’s position.

Former cabinet ministers Greening, Rudd and Damian Green went to No 10 last week in an attempt to persuade May to back a position that would unite most of the party around a compromise, which could see Britain stay inside a customs union with the EU for years after the transition period ends in 2021.

The new data will embolden Labour figures pushing the party into a much softer position on Brexit. While Labour has backed staying in a customs union with the EU, it has not backed remaining inside the single market or backing a new referendum on the final Brexit deal.

Eloise Todd, from the Best for Britain campaign, said: “This data shows that the Conservatives’ adoption of a hard Brexit could spell disaster for its election hopes, as well as the country.” The dozens of MPs at risk need to start representing their constituents and call on the prime minister to change course.”

The study also exposes a major potential role for voters who cast a ballot in the EU referendum, but opted not to vote in the last general election. There are 4.5 million of the voters, 2.9 million of whom backed Leave and 1.6m supported Remain. They could yet shape the next election should they be persuaded to cast a vote.

[CarbonVirtine]

And there we have it, in a nutshell, the Brexit problem. There is no compromise, no middle ground. And how can there be when 'out' is an ideology more than a practical position? It seems there are many flavours of out.

 

A 'soft' Brexit isn't a compromise position, it's a cop out for many, suiting neither camp. Brexit will never mean Brexit because nobody can agree what Brexit means.

[Countryfox]

35 minutes ago, toddybad said:

 

A second ref is coming my friend. If leavers win again, fair enough. If they don't I'm looking forward to your meltdown ?

 

But if leavers win will it be fair enough or will you and all those like you that think you know best want yet another ref till you get the answer you want.   Accept it.  Accept the result. Acknowledge that MOST people voted to leave.  Build a fookin bridge.  

 

Personally im not going to lose any sleep either way ...   I think it was a bold move that will be very difficult to manoeuvre through but will ultimately be a good move.  The EU is a corrupt, busted flush and will fall to bits anyway.  We will then be ahead of the game.

 

[Sharpe's Fox]

46 minutes ago, toddybad said:

You voted for something different to strokes who voted for something different to Matt who voted different to sharpe's fox.

Think we all voted for the same thing, that the only legislature enabled by the constitution to create, enact or repeal UK law is to be the UK House of Commons. What we disagree on is what those laws should be. Ain’t I right? @Strokes @Webbo @MattP

Edited 3 June 2018 by Sharpe's Fox

[Alf Bentley]

3 hours ago, Strokes said:

Is this the start of Gove’s bid to unseat May? 

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/02/replace-theresa-may-with-michael-gove-tory-donor-says-brexit-uk-news

 

 

Interesting stuff. Interesting not least that a wealthy hedge fund manager feels entitled to publicly tell the elected govt who it should appoint as PM. 

 

Interesting, too, that his hedge fund seems to have gambled massively on the UK economy and stock market doing badly and interest rates rising.

As a result, his hedge fund seems to have lost 95% of its value (due to the UK economy not crashing as quickly as he and others predicted) - and is exposed to a further massive loss in June:

https://www.ft.com/content/27c53024-3da1-11e8-b7e0-52972418fec4

 

If he wants a Brexiteer to lead the party he's funding, though I do think  he's backing the right horse. Gove has an awareness of the need for strategic, not purely ideological thinking - and the need for the Tories to appeal to people apart from Tory Brexiteers. Surely Boris is now a busted flush? People found him entertaining for a long time, but these are serious times and serious issues, so there is less appeal in having a PM who acts like a TV comedian playing for laughs. Davis and Fox just seem like a pair of dimwits - not up to the job. Like Boris, JRM has some intelligence  and some entertainment value - and unlike any of the others, apart from Gove, he does some serious thinking. But I just cannot imagine the wider public voting in a govt led by someone as personally peculiar and ideologically inflexible as him. I could see circumstances in which a Tory party led by Gove could win the next election, whenever that is.

 

However, I cannot see anyone mounting a challenge to May until the final deal is agreed (or definitely not agreed). It would surely be seen as disruptive and traitorous by Tories and the wider public if a challenge were launched while negotiations were still ongoing? If it all collapses in June or September, or if the final deal involves a lot more climbdowns, someone like Gove could "regretfully" challenge May - and might be able to hold the Tory party together.

 

Hedge fund bod's criticism of May is a bit unfair, though. Maybe she is a bit of a cautious, fence-sitting would-be-civil-servant, but she took up a poisoned chalice. How could anyone have done more to hold a massively divided Tory party together?

The shame is that this has been the PM's main goal: to keep her party together - potentially leaving the nation in chaos within a year, given the lack of clear policies or advance planning.

 

On a personal level, I found Sajid Javid quite impressive on Marr this morning. I don't want any Tory doing well, but it was strangely refreshing to see a minister who seemed up to the job and with some ideas and priorities. Competence seems to be in short supply in this shambolic govt.

[foxinexile]

18 minutes ago, Countryfox said:

 

But if leavers win will it be fair enough or will you and all those like you that think you know best want yet another ref till you get the answer you want.   Accept it.  Accept the result. Acknowledge that MOST people voted to leave.  Build a fookin bridge.  

 

 

In fairness, just before the referendum, Nigel Farage said: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain camp wins two-thirds to one-third that ends it".

I don't think there will be another referendum (and as a Remain voter/supporter I don't think there should be) but people shouldn't be called out for campaigning for another one, particularly not after the man who campaigned so vociferously to leave said a Remain vote of 52-48 would be "unfinished business".