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Guest MattP

FT General Election Poll 2019

FT General Election 2019  

501 members have voted

  1. 1. Which party will be getting your vote?

    • Conservative
      155
    • Labour
      188
    • Liberal Democrats
      93
    • Brexit Party
      17
    • Green Party
      26
    • Other
      22


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42 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

I'm not going to lie, I've always known 'shylock' as someone deceptive, I (roughly) know of the Shakespeare character but this is the first time I've heard it was rooted in anti-semitism. So to an extent I can understand his excuse.

 

...but from a candidate for a seat in Parliament it's unacceptable really, and when it's directed at a Jewish  councillor in the Labour Party's current state it does raise some questions...

 

 

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Just now, Finnaldo said:

I'm not going to lie, I've always known 'shylock' as someone deceptive, I (roughly) know of the Shakespeare character but this is the first time I've heard it was rooted in anti-semitism. So to an extent I can understand his excuse.

 

...but from a candidate for a seat in Parliament it's unacceptable really, and when it's directed at a Jewish  councillor in the Labour Party's current state it does raise some questions...

The excuse doesn't really make any sense to me, what made the word "shylock" come into his head? I doubt it was because he was Venetian.

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5 minutes ago, MattP said:

The excuse doesn't really make any sense to me, what made the word "shylock" come into his head? I doubt it was because he was Venetian.

 

I mean I've literally grew up with the word 'shylock' meaning a liar or deceiver without any Jewish connotation attached, this is the first time I've known it to have a anti-semitic history. I see it being viable.

 

But as I said, it's not excusable from a hopeful for political office, background or not they should know better especially directed at a Jewish person.

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5 minutes ago, Finnaldo said:

Imean I've literally grew up with the word 'shylock' meaning a liar or deceiver without any Jewish connotation attached, this is the first time I've known it to have a anti-semitic history. I see it being viable.

 

But as I said, it's not excusable from a hopeful for political office, background or not they should know better especially directed at a Jewish person.

Fair enough, I've no reason to believe you aren't telling the truth.

 

I've always been into mafia movies so I've always known it's used to towards Jews when money discussing comes up.

 

He might have just been incredibly unlikely, but in the current climate no chance of surviving that.

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Just now, MattP said:

Fair enough, I've no reason to believe you aren't telling the truth.

 

I've always been into mafia movies so I've always known it's used to towards Jews when money discussing comes up.

 

He might have just been incredibly unlikely, but in the current climate no chance of surviving that.

 

Yeah well I'll take it forward with me from now on, might have saved me from an awkward situation in the future so cheers Matt! :thumbup:

 

To be honest it may well be a blissful ignorance on my part, like I said I hadn't seen Merchant of Venice but know of the character Shylock being the origin of the term, I just presumed it was like Judas with no inherent racial or religious bias attached, I've known of perhaps two Jewish lads in my time and neither more than an acquaintance.

 

I'd reiterate though, a public office job requires an understanding of things like this, the Labour Party aren't exactly in the position to let like this slip and it shouldn't be ignored, I just wanted to throw my tuppence in.

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1 hour ago, MattP said:

47 is like being a teenager in Conservative years lol

 

She's the favourite for next Tory leader imo - extremely popular with the faithful. Her views are interesting, ones like criminal fearing the law will be extremely popular I'm sure with the wider public, others on homosexuality etc upset even voters like me. At least she's open about them, many aren't. 

 

It's upto the public to judge though, as always.

I've come to a conclusion that you have to ignore views which have no bearing - there is no way whatsoever we will go back to a ban on gay marriage, so I don't care what she thinks about that.  We do have a massive crime problem going out of control, and she is well placed to deal with it.

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52 minutes ago, MattP said:

In local elections I can forgive these people, vetting thousands of candidates is almost impossible from a central body.

 

But if the Labour party can't even sort out antisemitism or the Tory party sexism in its 600 odd candidates for the national parliament we are in serious trouble.

 

The worst thing about these cases is the party members knew about it and still selected them.

This is the point about the Labour party being institutionally anti-Semitic - they are not capable of sorting it out because the belief, structure and process isn't there.  It all starts at the top, and Corbyn cannot seem to see the difference between anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic.  Shame on them.  They selected him and have failed to get rid of him.

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22 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I've come to a conclusion that you have to ignore views which have no bearing - there is no way whatsoever we will go back to a ban on gay marriage, so I don't care what she thinks about that.  We do have a massive crime problem going out of control, and she is well placed to deal with it.

Probably.

 

The future can sometimes be a difficult business to predict.

 

18 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

This is the point about the Labour party being institutionally anti-Semitic - they are not capable of sorting it out because the belief, structure and process isn't there.  It all starts at the top, and Corbyn cannot seem to see the difference between anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic.  Shame on them.  They selected him and have failed to get rid of him.

...is misogyny similarly institutionalised within the Tory party then given their scandal at the present time?

 

(I don't reckon it is, just wondering if broad stroke generalisations based on candidates having not been vetted properly - which is as above bloody stupid in itself - were as good for the goose as they are for the gander.)

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5 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Probably.

 

The future can sometimes be a difficult business to predict.

 

...is misogyny similarly institutionalised within the Tory party then given their scandal at the present time?

 

(I don't reckon it is, just wondering if broad stroke generalisations based on candidates having not been vetted properly - which is as above bloody stupid in itself - were as good for the goose and they are for the gander.)

All parties have twats, and are not very good at filtering them out it seems.  The antisemitism in the Labour party is different.  I recommend a read of this twitter thread by a Muslim guy which explains it much better than I ever could.

 

https://twitter.com/maajidnawaz/status/1192479519929774082?s=21

Edited by Jon the Hat
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7 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I've come to a conclusion that you have to ignore views which have no bearing - there is no way whatsoever we will go back to a ban on gay marriage, so I don't care what she thinks about that.  We do have a massive crime problem going out of control, and she is well placed to deal with it.

 

There's an argument that politicians who hold office of influence and power with these attitudes tend to embolden those with similar views and more malicious intent.

 

More brutal police measures is putting a plaster on a gaping social issue thats been widening ever since Tories cut social outreach programmes and community centres. I'm sure we'll get prettier-looking statistics but until the massive social issues that are the undercurrent of this rise in crime it's seems like building a house on unsteady foundations.

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Just now, Finnaldo said:

 

There's an argument that politicians who hold office of influence and power with these attitudes tend to embolden those with similar views and more malicious intent.

 

More brutal police measures is putting a plaster on a gaping social issue thats been widening ever since Tories cut social outreach programmes and community centres. I'm sure we'll get prettier-looking statistics but until the massive social issues that are the undercurrent of this rise in crime it's seems like building a house on unsteady foundations.

I don't disagree on the root causes, but you have to attack both.  You can't just let kids go around stabbing each other.  Zero tolerance on knife crime.  Stop and search everyone as far as I am concerned.

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3 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I don't disagree on the root causes, but you have to attack both.  You can't just let kids go around stabbing each other.  Zero tolerance on knife crime. 

 

That's exactly my point, but without a solid plans for social outreach I feel it's a big money sink, and I haven't seen anything from Patel to suggest she has one lined up.

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17 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

I've come to a conclusion that you have to ignore views which have no bearing - there is no way whatsoever we will go back to a ban on gay marriage, so I don't care what she thinks about that.  We do have a massive crime problem going out of control, and she is well placed to deal with it.

Where do you draw the line with that sentiment though? There are countless awful views and beliefs held by politicians the world over that they'd never be able to put into force were they in office, but that doesn't make the views/person any less reprehensible surely? 

 

Seems like a slippery slope to ignore awful views on the basis that they can get the job done. How are the fears of the LGTBQ community regarding Patel any different to the fears of those in the Jewish community regarding Corbyn and Labour. Yes one relates to a party and the other to an individual, but neither would realistically be able to do anything to the great detriment of either community, thankfully. 

 

Your perspective sort of reminds me of the dodgy football owners debate, in that many believe it's irrelevant what the owners background is/are providing they bring success.

 

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12 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

All parties have twats, and are not very good at filtering them out it seems.  The antisemitism in the Labour party is different.  I recommend a read of this twitter thread by a Muslim guy which explains it much better than I ever could.

 

https://twitter.com/maajidnawaz/status/1192479519929774082?s=21

Nawaz as always makes an eloquent argument.

 

However, I simply don't agree that the anti-Semitism within the Labour Party is somehow more "institutionalised" than bad sentiments in other parties.

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The issue is, does the anti religious views or views on sexuality, lead to any form of discrimination, and that could be by positively discriminating in favour of one group over another. i.e. not deliberately discriminating against Jewish people but by positively discriminating in favour of Muslims could have that effect. does favouring the LBGT+ a have the effect of discriminating against straight people. 

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33 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

However, I simply don't agree that the anti-Semitism within the Labour Party is somehow more "institutionalised" than bad sentiments in other parties.

Unsurprisingly I think it does.

 

Though we'll soon find out when we get the official result of the ECHR investigation into it.

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12 minutes ago, twoleftfeet said:

The issue is, does the anti religious views or views on sexuality, lead to any form of discrimination, and that could be by positively discriminating in favour of one group over another. i.e. not deliberately discriminating against Jewish people but by positively discriminating in favour of Muslims could have that effect. does favouring the LBGT+ a have the effect of discriminating against straight people. 

Rights aren't (or shouldn't be) a zero-sum game. It isn't pie.

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40 minutes ago, David Guiza said:

How are the fears of the LGTBQ community regarding Patel any different to the fears of those in the Jewish community regarding Corbyn and Labour. Yes one relates to a party and the other to an individual, but neither would realistically be able to do anything to the great detriment of either community, thankfully.

When nearly half of the LGBT are considering fleeing the country if the Tories get in its comparable. Until then I don't think it is.

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26 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

All parties have twats, and are not very good at filtering them out it seems.  The antisemitism in the Labour party is different.  I recommend a read of this twitter thread by a Muslim guy which explains it much better than I ever could.

 

https://twitter.com/maajidnawaz/status/1192479519929774082?s=21

 

Apologies if I got this wrong, but the evidence given here is that Corbyn has attended pro-Palestinian conventions and conferences also visited by several malicious groups? It seems to be the main focus points here. 

 

Other parts of that thread and those linked suggest he's also likened a removal  of the Gaza blockade as Jewish refugees (which is dramatic but neither really here nor there as a call for humanitarian aid) and criticised prison conditions, which even in excerpt suggests its more to do with prisoners held without trial, that's made out to want to free terrorists? These parts seems rather tenuous to be honest.

 

In terms of these conferences, has it ever been shown that he engages directly with the terrorists/men-of-interest he's linked with? There's always a vague mention of 'brothers' (which from what I've seen tends to be used to refer the conference-attendees as a whole) and other than photos where they're all in frame yet not shown interacting, I've never seen him personally support these individuals clearly, only in these Twitter threads with a vague connotation that because they were both in attendance they're in cahoots. 

 

At this point, I'd like to point out that I'm decidedly for a two-state agreement with Israel-Palestine, and that both have committed horrible acts. From what I understand you have two democratically-elected yet authoritarian & usually antagonistic regimes in Israel and Palestine, but the Israeli government is supported by the US & NATO meaning their violence tend to go either unnoticed or gently condemned whereas Palestine are very much on their own, meaning any support has to go through conferences generally frequented by Hamas and former Black September members?

 

I don't like that Corbyn picks a side, but he seems as guilty as the UK government in those terms.

 

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

When nearly half of the LGBT are considering fleeing the country if the Tories get in its comparable. Until then I don't think it is.

 

So I could read into it, have you got a link for that Matt?

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6 minutes ago, MattP said:

When nearly half of the LGBT are considering fleeing the country if the Tories get in its comparable. Until then I don't think it is.

So concerns are only valid once a newspaper poll claims that 40% of 700 odd people of a particular community would consider leaving the country on that basis?

 

I don't dismiss their concerns by any means, it's worrying that any group of people should feel that way about any major party/leader on these shores or beyond. However, I do imagine that if I had the time I could find numerous polls with more than 274 people saying something to that effect. 

 

I am completely in favour of looking beyond a persons history for the greater good, but you have to draw the line somewhere and i'm not convinced being tougher on crime balances out the long list of questionable comments, views, career history of somebody like Priti Patel. 

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2 hours ago, Finnaldo said:

I'm not going to lie, I've always known 'shylock' as someone deceptive, I (roughly) know of the Shakespeare character but this is the first time I've heard it was rooted in anti-semitism. So to an extent I can understand his excuse.

 

...but from a candidate for a seat in Parliament it's unacceptable really, and when it's directed at a Jewish  councillor in the Labour Party's current state it does raise some questions...

Not just "shylock" by the looks of it lol

 

Barmy he was selected.

 

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21 minutes ago, MattP said:

 

Cheers Matt.

 

What I find bizarre is, a similar poll found 11% seriously considered leaving the UK... over the January 2015 Paris Attacks? A foreign terrorist attack? I know in the grand scheme of things its close but a tenth of those polled prepared to leave the UK...  

 

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

Not just "shylock" by the looks of it lol

 

Barmy he was selected.

 

Fvcking Christ.

 

That's a catastrophic failure in selection, and it'll give critics reason (quite rightly) to look further into Labour hopefuls...

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