Stearman

[Swedging]

3

So about one and a half hectares. Even at a fairly high density - say 50 homes a hectare, that gives 75 homes (average for the UK is under 30 per hectare - 75 in central London). So, I'd guess the value of the site at something like five million.

I could be well out though.

[Foxes_Trust]

I think I am right in saying that we owe about £16m on the stadium and pay about £925K in interest alone. We do not pay anything off the capital at this rate. In fact the debt may grow with time dependant on how we do in the league. Payments are related to our league position and other factors.

In the case of the ground share (and I am not raising that again) Tigers would have put in £8m and we would have obtained a more commercially acceptable loan for a similar amount and that would have been put into a joint company for the buying and running of the stadium.

Would say you were pretty close to the situation on all stated there.

Payment relates to which League we are in, rather than the position in the table. While in the Championship the debt actually increases year on year, as we don't cover the interest accumulated, so the debt will be heading towards £17m

Somebody earlier stated the debt was £30m & MM would cover it - out on both counts there

[Jonbluefox9]

All this talk of selling the training ground is ok but surely if we sell the training ground, the facilities go with it. That would include the dome which was built at a similar time to the stadium and the other buildings like the gym etc. Then where do we train and where does the Academy go to? Plus, try to attract new players to come to a club that work day-in, day-out on a playing field which would appear to be a realistic option with no training ground. I think the training ground would be one of the last things the club would think of selling as it would totally go against idea of building a team for the future with the Academy being uprooted.

[Thracian]

I'm thinking out loud. But, if groundsharing is unpopular and possiblly dead in the water anyway, one thing the club might do is try to negotiate with Hinckley United for daytime use of their facilities (which they already advertise for hire) for, say, a three/five year period while Belvoir Drive is sold and an alternative long term site is purchased and gradually developed.

It might even be possible to transfer the buildings to any new site.

It would probably take two/three years for BD to be sold and to get the planning consent through, making the whole process cover five/seven years by which time the stadium debt might well be paid or at least substantially reduced.

The Foxes Trust have made it clear that the £16m-odd debt is already up around £17m and increasing steadily year on year. How long do we allow it to go on increasing if we want to stay in business or to avoid being so burdened with debt that we've no chance of competing?

And how long will the Academy last if we can't pay our bills?

The club can wait and hope for promotion or a fairy godfather but what if those things don't materialise cos promotion, while possible, doesn't look likely right now and we don't seem to have had many fairy godfather's so far, nor is it that easy for them to get a foothold at Leicester.

We seem to have the means to change things but does the board have the will?. And will the fans accept that

magic money is unlikely to drop out of the sky without serious and far-reaching conditions.

MM has had success but with other clubs apparently attracting significant investment I'll sound another word of warning - however much money is ploughed in by however many millionaires, there will only be three of the 24 competing teams promoted. Then what will the "losing" backers do?

Abramovich is a one-off at Chelsea but generally you can only buy promotions if you're not up against similar chunks of money at other clubs. If you are then the risks increase dramatically.

I still favour standing on our own feet although the level of our debt makes it a harder decision.

[Louise]

With all that I reckon we could clear our ground debt completely within three/four years and still have a better team with which to challenge for promotion either this year or next than we field right now.

And, given a little luck with specific player development, we would still have perfectly adequate footballers and funds to operate respectably in the Premiership should it happen.

I won't labour you with details but I'll be interested to see how much of it happens. And it has nothing to do with any speculator or, indeed anything or anyone who's not already there at the club.

What I suspect will happen is that the management will constantly avoid taking the action which will pay off the ground debt, in the hope that we achieve an early promotion. I've seen it happen to individuals with house debts and it never quite works out. The debts keep rising, together with the problems that arise as a result.

They are not helped by the fans who seem to ignore the restraints that debt imposes and refuse to contemplate selling any of our better players, whether they're replaceable with better or not.

Hopefully the management will identify the formulae for combined on and off field success and apply it with vigour and conviction.

I'd like you to go into details, or at least send your plan to Tim Davies, it sounds magic.

Even if players went for your estimates in another thread I can't see how we'd clear our debt and have a great team in a few years.

Let's say the stadium debt is 17 million by the end of this year (this is assuming that for the last two years we've managed to pay off the interest with the parachute payments). End of the season we sell Kisnorbo, McCarthy, Fryatt and Stearman as per your estimates in this thread, for 6.25 million. This makes our debt: 10.75 million.

We then have to buy replacements (fans wouldn't be happy with selling our best players and having no-one coming in). If O'Grady and Dodds make up for the loss of Fryatt, we'd still need a lot of new defenders. Say we spend £2.5 million on defenders and perhaps another area that needs filling (being generous I'd include the wage increases and agent fees) - keep in mind likes of Williams, Tiatto, Johansson, Johnson will also be leaving at the end of the season and may need to be replaced. So now the debt is: 13.25 million, in this theoretical scenario.

So the next year comes around, £1 million added onto the debt (£14.25 million), we sell Logan, Wesolowski, Porter, O'Grady, Dodds and Sheehan for £6.5 million, making the debt: £7.75 million. Some of these may be replaced by our young players, but we'd still need to spend again a large amount to cover those positions, as well as those of the potentially 9 or more players out of contract. So we have to spend £3 million (again giving you agents fees in that and imagining a lot of free transfers that somehow turn out to be the best quality). But! Also this year we get 750,000k in ad-ons from the players we sold last year, yay! (Now I do feel like I'm playing Monopoly) Debt: £10 million.

Now the next year, add £1 million in interest (£11 million). We sell Chambers, Gradel, King and Odihiambo for £5 million. Debt is £6 million. Again we must spend on replacements, including for the out of contract players, say £2.5 million (agents fees etc etc). Debt is £8.5 million.

Next year we add £1 million in interest (£9.5 million), we have no players to sell now as most of the ones we have have come in on free transfers OR are so important to the team that selling would mean relegation (if we haven't been already). That's four years and we still have a huge debt and a team probably on a par with the one we have now.

And over those 4 years we've also had to cover the money lost on faulty marketing promotions, drops in ticket sales, fines over too many bookings, unexpected expenses such as managers being sacked or executives taking a little too much of the pie... who knows how much that'd be (especially the gate losses)?

[Jimmy]

thrac why do you want our training facilities sold off, they are a key asset to any potential investors as it shows we have the set up to be a premier league side and we just need the players to get us there. OH and why do you think we have so many good prospects, could it have anything to do with the training ground? i think so as god knows chelseas, man utd, arsenal and liverpool to name a few have a much bigger draw if all you have is the name of the club to do it

[Thracian]

I'd like you to go into details, or at least send your plan to Tim Davies, it sounds magic.

Even if players went for your estimates in another thread I can't see how we'd clear our debt and have a great team in a few years.

Let's say the stadium debt is 17 million by the end of this year (this is assuming that for the last two years we've managed to pay off the interest with the parachute payments). End of the season we sell Kisnorbo, McCarthy, Fryatt and Stearman as per your estimates in this thread, for 6.25 million. This makes our debt: 10.75 million.

We then have to buy replacements (fans wouldn't be happy with selling our best players and having no-one coming in). If O'Grady and Dodds make up for the loss of Fryatt, we'd still need a lot of new defenders. Say we spend £2.5 million on defenders and perhaps another area that needs filling (being generous I'd include the wage increases and agent fees) - keep in mind likes of Williams, Tiatto, Johansson, Johnson will also be leaving at the end of the season and may need to be replaced. So now the debt is: 13.25 million, in this theoretical scenario.

So the next year comes around, £1 million added onto the debt (£14.25 million), we sell Logan, Wesolowski, Porter, O'Grady, Dodds and Sheehan for £6.5 million, making the debt: £7.75 million. Some of these may be replaced by our young players, but we'd still need to spend again a large amount to cover those positions, as well as those of the potentially 9 or more players out of contract. So we have to spend £3 million (again giving you agents fees in that and imagining a lot of free transfers that somehow turn out to be the best quality). But! Also this year we get 750,000k in ad-ons from the players we sold last year, yay! (Now I do feel like I'm playing Monopoly) Debt: £10 million.

Now the next year, add £1 million in interest (£11 million). We sell Chambers, Gradel, King and Odihiambo for £5 million. Debt is £6 million. Again we must spend on replacements, including for the out of contract players, say £2.5 million (agents fees etc etc). Debt is £8.5 million.

Next year we add £1 million in interest (£9.5 million), we have no players to sell now as most of the ones we have have come in on free transfers OR are so important to the team that selling would mean relegation (if we haven't been already). That's four years and we still have a huge debt and a team probably on a par with the one we have now.

And over those 4 years we've also had to cover the money lost on faulty marketing promotions, drops in ticket sales, fines over too many bookings, unexpected expenses such as managers being sacked or executives taking a little too much of the pie... who knows how much that'd be (especially the gate losses)?

Come on Louise. It would be easier to have simply said you disagree with me.

The above wouldn't be the scenario at all.

But seeing as the subject seems to have caught your imagination try thinking harder about how something might be done because, I presume you at least agree that we will have to take some action eventually. Or do you somehow think the dripping tap of debt will suddenly get slower rather than faster?.

If so I sincerely hope you're right.

[syston_fox]

I could just be being really naive here but assuming we just pay off the interest each year why are we in such a hurry to pay it off? Im assuming that its not gonna disappear overnight so as long as we can cough up that extra bit each year we can keep it manageable and carry on in the way that we have been. Pay a bit off extra off whenever we can due to selling the odd player here and there, get in a cheaper replacement and use the rest of the money to slowly wittle down the debt..... this is where my lack of knowledge about debt is very apparent!

[Louise]

Simpler to say I disagreed yes, but I thought I'd explain why.

It's great that you're thinking of other solutions to our debt problems. Unfortunately to me there are only two ways of ridding ourselves of the debt, regular Premiership action or large investment*. As I doubt we'll ever get either of these I can only see our debt getting worse over the next few years, and so our fortunes on the pitch as well. Clearly those behind the scenes at the club are optimists though and hope for just one season in the Prem every few years to keep us ticking over.

* I don't count the groundshare as that is short-term.

[Louise]

I could just be being really naive here but assuming we just pay off the interest each year why are we in such a hurry to pay it off? Im assuming that its not gonna disappear overnight so as long as we can cough up that extra bit each year we can keep it manageable and carry on in the way that we have been. Pay a bit off extra off whenever we can due to selling the odd player here and there, get in a cheaper replacement and use the rest of the money to slowly wittle down the debt..... this is where my lack of knowledge about debt is very apparent!

The problem is that the size of the interest is so vast (approx. £1 million), that we won't be able to pay it off each year so will have to put it onto our debt.

[Thracian]

Simpler to say I disagreed yes, but I thought I'd explain why.

It's great that you're thinking of other solutions to our debt problems. Unfortunately to me there are only two ways of ridding ourselves of the debt, regular Premiership action or large investment*. As I doubt we'll ever get either of these I can only see our debt getting worse over the next few years, and so our fortunes on the pitch as well. Clearly those behind the scenes at the club are optimists though and hope for just one season in the Prem every few years to keep us ticking over.

* I don't count the groundshare as that is short-term.

I appreciate your explanation...and broadly agree with most of what you say here.

I have also to presume you wouldn't agree with selling the Belvoir Drive training facilities.

[Louise]

I appreciate your explanation...and broadly agree with most of what you say here.

I have also to presume you wouldn't agree with selling the Belvoir Drive training facilities.

Certainly not. It seems like it's one of the few assets we have, I don't think selling it wouldn't produce enough money to buy back the stadium, so would just leave us owning nothing. And as others have pointed out it has helped us to attract the appropriate standard of player and develop the youth setup that is so important to us now.

[Thracian]

Certainly not. It seems like it's one of the few assets we have, I don't think selling it wouldn't produce enough money to buy back the stadium, so would just leave us owning nothing. And as others have pointed out it has helped us to attract the appropriate standard of player and develop the youth setup that is so important to us now.

Leicester City has many assets now. And the sale of BD would possibly cover two fifths of our debt.

And as an asset it is more than counter-balanced by the financial liability that is our stadium.

However what you've said is exactly what I expected you to say - and most other fans.

So we wait - for a promotion that might not come and a speculative money lender who might not materialise and might not deliver anyway. Not a comforting prospect.

[Thracian]

thrac why do you want our training facilities sold off, they are a key asset to any potential investors as it shows we have the set up to be a premier league side and we just need the players to get us there. OH and why do you think we have so many good prospects, could it have anything to do with the training ground? i think so as god knows chelseas, man utd, arsenal and liverpool to name a few have a much bigger draw if all you have is the name of the club to do it

I don't but I don't want us drifting ever deeper and deeper into debt either.

[Thracian]

I could just be being really naive here but assuming we just pay off the interest each year why are we in such a hurry to pay it off? Im assuming that its not gonna disappear overnight so as long as we can cough up that extra bit each year we can keep it manageable and carry on in the way that we have been. Pay a bit off extra off whenever we can due to selling the odd player here and there, get in a cheaper replacement and use the rest of the money to slowly wittle down the debt..... this is where my lack of knowledge about debt is very apparent!

But we don't do we. The debt is increasing each year according to the Foxes Trust and with our income also under pressure there's every sign that will continue.

[Darren27]

Cant we just apply for one of those debt buster loan things they advertise all the time on the telly, you know the one which says that 75% of the debt is written off and the rest payed over 5 years with no intrest?

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

Surely we have to try and get rid of the likes of Hammond and Sylla today aswell

Since when is Hammond on people's hitlists? Bloody hell, a couple of starts and a couple of games without goals and people want to get rid of him. He was on everyone's team predictions for the first couple of games.

[DanTheFoxBhoy]

I'd like you to go into details, or at least send your plan to Tim Davies, it sounds magic.

Even if players went for your estimates in another thread I can't see how we'd clear our debt and have a great team in a few years.

Let's say the stadium debt is 17 million by the end of this year (this is assuming that for the last two years we've managed to pay off the interest with the parachute payments). End of the season we sell Kisnorbo, McCarthy, Fryatt and Stearman as per your estimates in this thread, for 6.25 million. This makes our debt: 10.75 million.

We then have to buy replacements (fans wouldn't be happy with selling our best players and having no-one coming in). If O'Grady and Dodds make up for the loss of Fryatt, we'd still need a lot of new defenders. Say we spend £2.5 million on defenders and perhaps another area that needs filling (being generous I'd include the wage increases and agent fees) - keep in mind likes of Williams, Tiatto, Johansson, Johnson will also be leaving at the end of the season and may need to be replaced. So now the debt is: 13.25 million, in this theoretical scenario.

So the next year comes around, £1 million added onto the debt (£14.25 million), we sell Logan, Wesolowski, Porter, O'Grady, Dodds and Sheehan for £6.5 million, making the debt: £7.75 million. Some of these may be replaced by our young players, but we'd still need to spend again a large amount to cover those positions, as well as those of the potentially 9 or more players out of contract. So we have to spend £3 million (again giving you agents fees in that and imagining a lot of free transfers that somehow turn out to be the best quality). But! Also this year we get 750,000k in ad-ons from the players we sold last year, yay! (Now I do feel like I'm playing Monopoly) Debt: £10 million.

Now the next year, add £1 million in interest (£11 million). We sell Chambers, Gradel, King and Odihiambo for £5 million. Debt is £6 million. Again we must spend on replacements, including for the out of contract players, say £2.5 million (agents fees etc etc). Debt is £8.5 million.

Next year we add £1 million in interest (£9.5 million), we have no players to sell now as most of the ones we have have come in on free transfers OR are so important to the team that selling would mean relegation (if we haven't been already). That's four years and we still have a huge debt and a team probably on a par with the one we have now.

And over those 4 years we've also had to cover the money lost on faulty marketing promotions, drops in ticket sales, fines over too many bookings, unexpected expenses such as managers being sacked or executives taking a little too much of the pie... who knows how much that'd be (especially the gate losses)?

We'd also have to factor in the losses of being a shit league two side we'd be after offing all of our talent for a few quid.

[Swedging]

Next year we add £1 million in interest (£9.5 million

Interest is presumably a percentage of the outstanding debt. So, even at the seemingly high interest rates on the debt, by the time the debt is halved, the interest payments will be halved too.

[Swedging]

Leicester City has many assets now. And the sale of BD would possibly cover two fifths of our debt.

Probably nearer a fifth, if you still want to build other LCFC training facilities somewhere. BD probably has to stay as a last resource should we be faced with administration again.

[Fez of Mahrez]

Since when is Hammond on people's hitlists? Bloody hell, a couple of starts and a couple of games without goals and people want to get rid of him. He was on everyone's team predictions for the first couple of games.

Hammond is bloody useless. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is a fully-rounded, bona fide FACT.

[Thracian]

We'd also have to factor in the losses of being a shit league two side we'd be after offing all of our talent for a few quid.

a) That isn't anything like what I'd propse. I've only ever suggested selling a two fifths of the young players we graduate - at the most.

b) I'm usually criticised for overpricing players so would hardly be likely to condone giving them away as you suggest.

c) As anticipated it is clear that fans wouldn't want to seriously address the debt problem. Something will turn up - and I hope it does.

d) It doesn't really matter now because we haven't sold anyone and the Board are obviously happy that we can remain solvent and continue to develop our young side and hopefully push for promotion for the time being, simply, presumably making normal interest payments as was sugggested by one of the posters. I just hope the pace of debt doesn't escalate beyond our control.

e) That being the case I much prefer not selling the training ground. Why would I advocate anything else given the choice?

[Jimmy]

Probably nearer a fifth, if you still want to build other LCFC training facilities somewhere. BD probably has to stay as a last resource should we be faced with administration again.

we aren't anywhere near administration, if we were stearman would of been sold ala piper

[Thracian]

we aren't anywhere near administration, if we were stearman would of been sold ala piper

I agree for now. The Board will obviously review things again in January and the policy then will depend on our League position.

If we're in with a shout of promotion they'll try to back the boss in pushing it through. But if not and if gates are disappointing then we may have to sell someone.

[Daggers]

Cant we just apply for one of those debt buster loan things they advertise all the time on the telly, you know the one which says that 75% of the debt is written off and the rest payed over 5 years with no intrest?

I think we'd be better off getting in touch with InjuryLawyers4U, they seem to be a clued up bunch and one of their website statements is that "We fight for justice!"

If there was any justice in the world then we'd be in the Premiership - so they could be fighting for that.