Absolute *** of our time Pt.MXXVI

[kenny]

1 minute ago, Clogger_ said:

A fabrication? The Tories left office with around *100* unoccupied prison places, and the absolute certainty that they would have to implement the *exact* early release program Labour (and our country!) have been lumbered with. Word has it this was why Sunak called the crazily early election... things would have gotten even worse for them.

 

It's 100 % on the Tories, this. They ran our country into the ground in so many ways

To clarify, could you confirm the following as @CornwallFox will not.

 

a) Close a bunch of prisons. - How many places were closed?

b) Don't replace their places. - How many were constructed?

c) How many more places were constructed within 18 months of leaving office under Prison rebuilding programme?

 

 

[urban.spaceman]

33 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

He is a ****ing moron, 

He's not a moron, he's a deeply illiterate malignant narcissist, a demonstrably corrupt and treasonous convicted rapist, and an alleged paedophile.

 

41 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

but I am sure he believes he is doing the right thing.

That's not a consolation when public health is being put at risk by his beliefs and actions.

 

He killed over a million Americans during the COVID pandemic through his actions and deliberately spreading misinformation, for which Fauci is being blamed and harassed by his MAGA ****s. 

[Clogger_]

Just now, kenny said:

To clarify, could you confirm the following as @CornwallFox will not.

 

a) Close a bunch of prisons. - How many places were closed?

b) Don't replace their places. - How many were constructed?

c) How many more places were constructed within 18 months of leaving office under Prison rebuilding programme?

 

 

Whataboutery. You want to absolve the rotten Tories of blame for heinous mismanagement of our prisons and legal system???

[kenny]

3 minutes ago, Clogger_ said:

Whataboutery. You want to absolve the rotten Tories of blame for heinous mismanagement of our prisons and legal system???

Factaboutery?

 

My made up word is better than the original posts made up words IMO?

 

Interestingly, (wrong thread, should be in the Leicester thread) all of the new prisons constructed or in the stages of planning and design were designed in Leicester.

[Muzzy_no7]

1 minute ago, kenny said:

Factaboutery?

 

My made up word is better than the original posts made up words IMO?

 

Interestingly, (wrong thread, should be in the Leicester thread) all of the new prisons constructed or in the stages of planning and design were designed in Leicester.

Fosseway is an absolute shambles 

[urban.spaceman]

29 minutes ago, CornwallFox said:

The Tories. Close a bunch of prisons. Don't replace their places. Constantly bang on about needing harsher prison terms (despite imprisonment leading to higher rates of reoffending that other options), begin early release themselves, then pretend it's all labour's fault, complain about every solution, then if labour use any of your ideas accuse them of backtracking/u-turning etc. Just like the republicans in the US, they have no interest in genuinely solving anything, it's just a constant game of trying to get power. 

It's amazing to watch Labour get blamed for all the things the Tories did. From prisons, to Chagos, the courts, immigration, asylum, small boat arrivals, the economy, energy costs, increasing welfare spending and more. Then they have the temerity to whinge about every single solution without coming up with a better one or taking any responsibility for the things they did. 

 

Absolute ****s. 

[Muzzy_no7]

Tories get a lot of the blame and rightly so but with historical failures from the other side too and more incompetence over the last 2 years surely the civil service needs to shoulder more of the blame? 
 

I mean if neither side can get it right it’s a fair assumption to believe the civil service continue to let a lot of the nation down?

[urban.spaceman]

12 minutes ago, kenny said:

To clarify, could you confirm the following as @CornwallFox will not.

 

a) Close a bunch of prisons. - How many places were closed?

b) Don't replace their places. - How many were constructed?

c) How many more places were constructed within 18 months of leaving office under Prison rebuilding programme?

 

 

They built the equivalent of 500 extra spaces between 2010 and 2024. 

 

Thirty a year. 

 

At the time of the 2024 General Election there were 83 spaces available in our prisons. 

 

Then a month later Farage and the Daily Mail created the immediate need for 1000 extra spaces by inciting the Southport riots. 

 

New prisons take 5-7 years to build, mostly due to planning regulations also inherited from the Tories. 

[Amin]

2 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

****ing monstrous. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3q5vl581wo

When a reporter asked for evidence of the "lethal" claim, Trump said: "What I've heard is that there are some people that say it is that way." 

[Clogger_]

9 minutes ago, Muzzy_no7 said:

Tories get a lot of the blame and rightly so but with historical failures from the other side too and more incompetence over the last 2 years surely the civil service needs to shoulder more of the blame? 
 

I mean if neither side can get it right it’s a fair assumption to believe the civil service continue to let a lot of the nation down?

Nah, this is on the Tories

[kenny]

13 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

They built the equivalent of 500 extra spaces between 2010 and 2024. 

 

Thirty a year. 

 

At the time of the 2024 General Election there were 83 spaces available in our prisons. 

 

Then a month later Farage and the Daily Mail created the immediate need for 1000 extra spaces by inciting the Southport riots. 

 

New prisons take 5-7 years to build, mostly due to planning regulations also inherited from the Tories. 

Some facts in there, I'm not sure they have a place in this thread.

 

Correct, they built 14k and closed 13.5k deemed to be outdated and dangerous. Since then another 3k or so have come online.

 

The delivery and planning since labour took power has slowed and delayed while the affordability of the proposed prison schemes were reviewed.

 

Labour even cancelled 3 extension schemes that had already started on site, citing cost issues. There was also an 18 month review on the prison building programme by Mahmood.

 

Anyway, all irrelevant facts to the central point of **** the Tories and whataboutery.

Edited 11 August by kenny

[urban.spaceman]

12 minutes ago, kenny said:

Some facts in there, I'm not sure they have a place in this thread.

 

Correct, they built 14k and closed 13.5k deemed to be outdated and dangerous. Since then another 3k or so have come online.

 

The delivery and planning since labour took power has slowed and delayed while the affordability of the proposed prison schemes were reviewed.

 

Labour even cancelled 3 extension schemes that had already started on site, citing cost issues. There was also an 18 month review on the prison building programme by Mahmood.

 

Anyway, all irrelevant facts to the central point of **** the Tories and whataboutery.

The three extension schemes were cancelled on the recommendation of the NAO, because the plan (again, inherited by Labour) was short termist, costs were rising due to inflation (thanks Liz), and one of the construction companies involved went under in September 2024. These projects (which would have provided an extra 20,000 spaces) weren't due to have been completed and ready until 2031 anyway. It was a shit plan from the get go, that squandered £24m before having to be cancelled, because it was a shit plan. 

[urban.spaceman]

32 minutes ago, Amin said:

When a reporter asked for evidence of the "lethal" claim, Trump said: "What I've heard is that there are some people that say it is that way." 

Stellar analysis from the guy who suggested injecting bleach to kill COVID in a minute. 

[kenny]

1 minute ago, urban.spaceman said:

The three extension schemes were cancelled on the recommendation of the NAO, because the plan (again, inherited by Labour) was short termist, costs were rising due to inflation (thanks Liz), and one of the construction companies involved went under in September 2024. These projects (which would have provided an extra 20,000 spaces) weren't due to have been completed and ready until 2031 anyway. It was a shit plan from the get go, that squandered £24m before having to be cancelled, because it was a shit plan. 

That was the result of the review correct, but it's very different from what has been stated in this thread. I'm not sure about short termist, but yes extending an existing prison is easier than a new one. The issues with staffing new prisons is a real pain as has already been said about fosseway.

 

My guess is that by the time the reviews have been completed, the cancelled projects will end up being value for money and would have been delivered more quickly than the alternative.

 

The replacement projects have not yet been decided upon let alone starting the planning process.

[CornwallFox]

2 hours ago, Clogger_ said:

Whataboutery. You want to absolve the rotten Tories of blame for heinous mismanagement of our prisons and legal system???

I've got Kenny on block as he's just not an honest debater much of the time. 

 

In the thread I'm banned from he was almost mocking starmar and reeves for suggesting increased oil licences doesn't necessarily equal increased tax revenues because he doesn't want to bother reading into a subject, he just wants to focus on top level basic arguments. Starmar and reeves were correct, for a whole range of reasons he didn't bother to look up. 

 

On this one, over the 14 years the Tories were in charge there was a net increase of 482 prison places. As others have said what was put in place, as across much of government over that 14 year period, was ill thought through and more interested in headlines than actually achieving a good outcome based on evidence. 

[kenny]

55 minutes ago, CornwallFox said:

I've got Kenny on block as he's just not an honest debater much of the time. 

 

In the thread I'm banned from he was almost mocking starmar and reeves for suggesting increased oil licences doesn't necessarily equal increased tax revenues because he doesn't want to bother reading into a subject, he just wants to focus on top level basic arguments. Starmar and reeves were correct, for a whole range of reasons he didn't bother to look up. 

 

On this one, over the 14 years the Tories were in charge there was a net increase of 482 prison places. As others have said what was put in place, as across much of government over that 14 year period, was ill thought through and more interested in headlines than actually achieving a good outcome based on evidence. 

I of course know their reasoning. They didn't say what it was at that particular PMQ's when they mocked Ed Davey, or the follow up question from the Conservative backbencher. (I dont recall who it was).

 

Afterwards, they said that there would be reduced incomes as people would use less fuel and balance it out. It seemed like an afterthought. As it happens, fuel purchasing is broadly in line with 2024 and aside from fluctuations caused by panic buying it is broadly the same. As fuel is roughly 20% more expensive, the VAT will have gone up a similar amount and we will see the same in the CT reciepts next.

 

As BP have since recorded record profit levels then I would suggest they were incorrect in their assessment - again.

 

My apologies if this is a bit of a basic level argument, I am sure the group would be delighted to hear the more detailed analysis so missing from Starmer and Reeves on the subject.

 

Extra VAT receipts from fuel top £100 million

 

 

Edited 11 August by kenny

[Md9]

6 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

****ing monstrous. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3q5vl581wo

Quicker this idiot is gone and never seen again the better 

[Muzzy_no7]

There’s something quite impressive about a political movement that can govern the country and still maintain with absolute conviction that it’s permanently the opposition’s fault. 

 

Blaming 14 years of Conservative government for the current state of prisons is fairly solid yes…but pretending that Labour are blameless for the current state of HMPS and indeed the UK in general is a little bit on the silly side. 
 

Like I said in an earlier post I think the Civil service and other non-elected departments have a lot to answer for. 

[bovril]

22 minutes ago, Muzzy_no7 said:

There’s something quite impressive about a political movement that can govern the country and still maintain with absolute conviction that it’s permanently the opposition’s fault. 

 

I was going to plus one you there then realised you were talking about Labour

[Parafox]

6 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

He is a ****ing moron, but I am sure he believes he is doing the right thing.

He knows what he believes and his belief is all he knows.

 

What he doesn't know are real, actual facts and consequences of what he does. He just throws shit out there for likes on SM. The man has no understanding of anything outside of pure business for profit at the expense of all and anybody else.

 

He will wage war on any person/country/faction that he sees as a threat to himself and his need for power and what he envisages as MAGA with complete disregard for any consequences.

 

Hitler in a red beanie cap.

 

 

[CornwallFox]

14 hours ago, Muzzy_no7 said:

There’s something quite impressive about a political movement that can govern the country and still maintain with absolute conviction that it’s permanently the opposition’s fault. 

 

Blaming 14 years of Conservative government for the current state of prisons is fairly solid yes…but pretending that Labour are blameless for the current state of HMPS and indeed the UK in general is a little bit on the silly side. 
 

Like I said in an earlier post I think the Civil service and other non-elected departments have a lot to answer for. 

The civil service just carries out the wishes of the government and it's legislation. That's it. 

The general state of the country is absolutely the fault of the Tories. Most complaints being made are things that have been destroyed over years. 

But yes labour are in charge and the key isn't what it's broken, but what is being fixed. I think that's a fair question. And mistakes and u turns have happened. But equally they have to have time for their policies to actually happen, given it takes 18 months for a policy to actually see implementation generally.

[Muzzy_no7]

34 minutes ago, CornwallFox said:

The civil service just carries out the wishes of the government and it's legislation. That's it. 

The general state of the country is absolutely the fault of the Tories. Most complaints being made are things that have been destroyed over years. 

But yes labour are in charge and the key isn't what it's broken, but what is being fixed. I think that's a fair question. And mistakes and u turns have happened. But equally they have to have time for their policies to actually happen, given it takes 18 months for a policy to actually see implementation generally.

I agree Labour need time to fix things but what I don’t agree with is the increasingly creative accounting of responsibility. “The Tories broke it” explains the inheritance but doesn’t explain every Labour decision, U-turn or failure since taking office.

 

Also “Entirely the Tories’ fault” is a massive stretch. Labour have had multiple governments and decades in office, yet apparently every structural problem is permanently stamped with a Conservative expiry date. You can give Labour time to fix things without giving them a convenient history-free pass on everything that happens under them.

 

Oh and The Civil Service isn’t simply a room full of people waiting for elected persons above to hand them legislation before pressing GO. If governing were genuinely that straightforward, we’d have solved Britain’s problems several governments ago.

[CornwallFox]

44 minutes ago, Muzzy_no7 said:

I agree Labour need time to fix things but what I don’t agree with is the increasingly creative accounting of responsibility. “The Tories broke it” explains the inheritance but doesn’t explain every Labour decision, U-turn or failure since taking office.

 

Also “Entirely the Tories’ fault” is a massive stretch. Labour have had multiple governments and decades in office, yet apparently every structural problem is permanently stamped with a Conservative expiry date. You can give Labour time to fix things without giving them a convenient history-free pass on everything that happens under them.

 

Oh and The Civil Service isn’t simply a room full of people waiting for elected persons above to hand them legislation before pressing GO. If governing were genuinely that straightforward, we’d have solved Britain’s problems several governments ago.

Very senior civil servants will give advice but the civil service absolutely 100% is waiting on ministerial direction. 

 

There are certainly long standing issues - actually social care is a great example, the failure of trickle down economics, failure to renationalise failing privatised industries etc where both parties are absolutely to blame. 

 

But the country clearly went very badly downhill during those 14 years. I blame Osborne for a lot of it. He presided over the treasury at a point where we had record low interest rates and was exactly the time that we should have been borrowing to invest and build and get our country moving. With virtually nil interest attached we could have developed all sorts of things that would have huge value. Instead he cut and chose that time to waste one if the biggest economic opportunities any government has ever had. And things just spiralled downhill from there. Lack of spending, lack of growth, lack of economic benefit to ordinary people, all while he boasted of booming Britain, and we see the rise of the far right, as we always do when leaders need to blame something other than themselves for economic woes. You can trace Brexit, small boats, economic stagnation all to those early Tory government decisions. 

 

But yes labour needs to do better. I'm quite positive Burnham might be more willing to really look for real change, we will see.

[urban.spaceman]

19 hours ago, Muzzy_no7 said:

There’s something quite impressive about a political movement that can govern the country and still maintain with absolute conviction that it’s permanently the opposition’s fault. 

 

Blaming 14 years of Conservative government for the current state of prisons is fairly solid yes…but pretending that Labour are blameless for the current state of HMPS and indeed the UK in general is a little bit on the silly side. 
 

Like I said in an earlier post I think the Civil service and other non-elected departments have a lot to answer for. 

If our new owners fail to get us back to being a functioning club playing in Europe by 27/28 is that on our new owners or the old ones? Or is it a combination of the devastating consequences of our current owner's mismanagement, and the impossibility of fixing things and achieving Europe in a timeline of just the next 2 seasons given the scale of the challenge and diminished resources left behind?

[Muzzy_no7]

46 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

If our new owners fail to get us back to being a functioning club playing in Europe by 27/28 is that on our new owners or the old ones? Or is it a combination of the devastating consequences of our current owner's mismanagement, and the impossibility of fixing things and achieving Europe in a timeline of just the next 2 seasons given the scale of the challenge and diminished resources left behind?

Come on man, you can do better than comparing the United Kingdom to a football club 😂