Alexikokopops Posted 2 September 2011 Posted 2 September 2011 My mate lives right next to Whitechapel station and the East London Mosque is the one he pops down most days. If I wasn't heading up to Birmingham for a stag do I'd pop down and see him to see what all the fuss is about.
Rincewind Posted 2 September 2011 Posted 2 September 2011 ded on August 24, 2011 Riots Reveal Integration Issue Riots Reveal Integration Issue thumbnail Suleman Nagdi asks why integration is seen exclusively as an issue for Muslims and not all communities. As the fallout and recriminations begin over the causes of the riots that have devastated the social fabric of Britain, it is time to discuss a most pressing issue, an issue that needs to be brought to the attention for discussion by the media, expert commentators and academics. Simply put, when there was large scale rioting a decade ago in some Northern cities, various analyses blamed Muslims for failing to integrate into mainstream society as the main cause. Now consistency in our analysis is needed to ask whether the young hooligans carrying out the riots from White, Black and Asian communities have also failed to integrate themselves into British society. Amongst the problems cited as causes for the riots have been unemployment, failure of education, lack of opportunities, sheer boredom and a frustration with politics over national and international policies. However, what has not been cited as a major cause is the issue of integration and whether young people from certain communities have behaved irresponsibly because they or their parents have failed to integrate fully into British society and have failed to become British. We need to look seriously into this as a society and accept that integration is an issue for all communities not just one especially when integration has not been deemed as a problem in some of those communities affected by the riots. Just as I disagree with the pigeon-holing of the Muslim community whereby we are all expected to share the blame for the latest atrocity committed by a tiny few, I cannot blame anyone for this violence except people involved who are united in their common greed and disregard for others in society. These are people from many races, cultures and backgrounds who have plunged our country into disarray seeming not to share a cultural or indeed religious heritage making it more complex to profile them. Thus they have been spared the wrath of commentators who are boosted by public resentment, deserved or otherwise, to lambast certain social groups. Muslims in Britain are especially victims of this, as was seen most recently with the Norway terror attacks following which every major news outlet spent several hours pouring scorn on the Islamist threat. They were forced to make drastic u-turns in their commentary when the facts emerged, quickly brushing their mistaken analysis under the carpet fearing no accountability. We cannot compartmentalise the issue into a faith based conflict regardless of the causes. Let us hope that the current riots do not lead to the vilification of any racial group. Rather let us avoid the mistakes of the past where one group has been stigmatised and vilified and instead consider integration as an issue not just for some but for all for it is an issue in which we are all stakeholders in our desire for a better Britain. Suleman Nagdi – Federation of Muslim Organisations Mobile 07759 446555 [email protected] 16 August 2011
zubi Posted 2 September 2011 Posted 2 September 2011 In no way would I point at any human being ( be what ever their background ) and say you are personally responsible for your race or religions excesses. A Muslim could point at me and say you are white therefore you support the E.D.L . Difference is if i had any information that the E.D.L were about to turn to acts of violence I would go to the police immediately and tell them what i know . I for one refuse to believe that no one in the muslim community knew what those bombers were going to do in London . And that is the crux of the matter . For what ever reason the Muslim people do not feel British in any way shape or form .our whole way of life is at odds with their culture and religion and begs the question why settle here if you are going to make no effort to integrate , and secularise your self from society in general . So am i now being racist for asking those questions ? if so there is a lot of people who are going to be labelled as such when they are not racist at all . It's a shame is any from the community knew about the 7/7 bombers and didn't come forward I know the wife was arrested for holding back intel. I don't think thats fair to say Muslim people do not feel British, what does it mean to feel British? The problem is that most of what British people enjoy... going to the pub, sunday roast, clubbing etc. Are actually forbidden in Islam, so it's not thay they don't want to integrate but find it hard to do so due to religious restrictions. So I don't really think you can blame them for that, I'm sure most would make an effort in the workplace or other recreational activities. Well no you aren't being racist, thats where I would agree with you wholeheartedly, its true that people of a specific culture do not make the effort to integrate, this is usually more of the case with the older generation immigrants coming from abroad. They are given free homes and money by the government and are expected to do nothing in return, which is wrong and the fault of government. I find it absurd that they can move to this country but not speak a single word of English, and yet they expect everyone to speak their language and still get treated better than hard working people. But thats an issue of immigration not religious extremism.
zubi Posted 2 September 2011 Posted 2 September 2011 Muslims in Britain are especially victims of this, as was seen most recently with the Norway terror attacks following which every major news outlet spent several hours pouring scorn on the Islamist threat. They were forced to make drastic u-turns in their commentary when the facts emerged, quickly brushing their mistaken analysis under the carpet fearing no accountability. We cannot compartmentalise the issue into a faith based conflict regardless of the causes. Let us hope that the current riots do not lead to the vilification of any racial group. Rather let us avoid the mistakes of the past where one group has been stigmatised and vilified and instead consider integration as an issue not just for some but for all for it is an issue in which we are all stakeholders in our desire for a better Britain. Suleman Nagdi – Federation of Muslim Organisations Mobile 07759 446555 [email protected] 16 August 2011 A well thought out and written letter. It's a shame that the media create terms like Islamist which gives a very negative image to Muslims around the world who have done nothing wrong.
panky and our gang Posted 2 September 2011 Posted 2 September 2011 I agree zubi but what i do not understand is the desire of Muslims to settle in a country that is completely at odds with their faith culture and way of life . No drinking betting and their women made to dress head to toe with just a little eye slit to look out of . Now i find that particular offensive given in this country women fought damn hard for equality and to end subjugation. Would I like to immigrate to a Muslim country with no drinking and where women are stoned to death for adultery because of some medieval religion . Too bloody right I wouldn't so why did they come here in the first place if every thing is at odds with their own way of life ? How can they possibly integrate into our way of life when theirs is just the opposite ? These are just questions i would like answered and it's nothing to do with being a racist it's just that I can not see a way forward for us as a unified society when one particular section clearly hates every thing we stand for .
21st Century Fox Posted 2 September 2011 Posted 2 September 2011 But not all Muslims go to such extremes, theres varying degrees like all religions in all societies. There are Muslims who still define themselves as Muslims culturally though they don't adhere to the extremes of their religion and don't let it get in the way of their jobs and day to day life. You also have Christians in this country with the same extremes, they may be from this country geographically but they are still fighting and trying to change the society and culture that has been build around them. I know a perfectly normal girl but her Dad's a former vicar who preaches outside the city hall where I live with a megaphone and has been arrested numerous times for spreading hate against homosexuals. Its not that Islam isn't compatible with our society its the extreme element that isn't, just as every faith. Obviously we hear about that element but we don't hear about normal muslim families and the doctors and the civil servants etc. Its not the faith itself that needs attention its the extremist element and that should go for all faiths.
panky and our gang Posted 3 September 2011 Posted 3 September 2011 It's one thing to be shouting errant nonsense about homosexuals through a Megaphone it's a different matter when you blow innocent people to death in the name of your religion. Hatred against our society is being preached in mosques in this country indeed they do it openly in public that is a fact . Posters and chanting of Islamification of the British nation are now the norm and even poster declaring areas of great Britain to be under shah-era law have also taken place . In both of those incidents I did not see one level headed moderate Muslim counter protesting saying "you do not represent us " that says it all for me . We are a tolerant society and I am very proud of that fact , go back to the thirties when Oswald Mosley and his fascist thugs got very little support from the public in fact they were shouted down and fought in the streets by ordinary men and women our sense of fair play won the day . Yet here we are seventy odd years later tolerating the same rabid fanaticism on our streets only this time it's from Muslim extremists . That tolerance has been betrayed and the result is innocent people on a bus and on the tube paying for that tolerance with their lives . Until people see the good moderate Muslims stand up and be counted ( and I am sure they are the majority ) the over all image of Islam will continue to be judged by those few fanatics , and people will continue to see them as outsiders and not part of our society.
Rincewind Posted 3 September 2011 Posted 3 September 2011 I went to a interview workshop and the tutor was a muslim. But she joked and laughed made funner voices when demonstrating how to behave at interviews. But when it came to greeting people she said as a muslim she could not shake the hands of an interviewer. She would have to politely refuse. She said it was a faith thing where touching hands was between husband and wife. Same applied in reverse. Men could not physically touch women other than spouses. I am not making judgements on her views and beliefs. She was a very good tutor and although I don't agree with her beliefs I respect them and that is a word that is missing in some areas of society.. The Muslims that are extreme I would imagine are in the minority. All religions have their fanatics and levels of obedience. One reason why I don't claim to favour one religion over another. When I meet or introduced to someone the last thing I want to hear is what religion they are. I judge on personality.
jonno24 Posted 3 September 2011 Posted 3 September 2011 I went to a interview workshop and the tutor was a muslim. But she joked and laughed made funner voices when demonstrating how to behave at interviews. But when it came to greeting people she said as a muslim she could not shake the hands of an interviewer. She would have to politely refuse. She said it was a faith thing where touching hands was between husband and wife. Same applied in reverse. Men could not physically touch women other than spouses. I am not making judgements on her views and beliefs. She was a very good tutor and although I don't agree with her beliefs I respect them and that is a word that is missing in some areas of society.. The Muslims that are extreme I would imagine are in the minority. All religions have their fanatics and levels of obedience. One reason why I don't claim to favour one religion over another. When I meet or introduced to someone the last thing I want to hear is what religion they are. I judge on personality. Isnt the penalty for Apostacy ? in the Muslim Faith...... Death Just asking
Charl91 Posted 3 September 2011 Posted 3 September 2011 They're probably still pissed off that we slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Muslims in the crusades, in the name of Jesus
panky and our gang Posted 3 September 2011 Posted 3 September 2011 I don't give a damn about any religion either but when it is used as an excuse to kill fellow human beings It's time to wake up and counter that threat . Sadly the murder victims in London never got the chance to shake hands with their murderers who gave them no respect what so ever. They died as a result of religious indoctrination carried out in the mosques in this country . Go knock on the doors of the victims families and ask them how tolerant of Islam they feel .
Charl91 Posted 3 September 2011 Posted 3 September 2011 I don't give a damn about any religion either but when it is used as an excuse to kill fellow human beings It's time to wake up and counter that threat . Sadly the murder victims in London never got the chance to shake hands with their murderers who gave them no respect what so ever. They died as a result of religious indoctrination carried out in the mosques in this country . Go knock on the doors of the victims families and ask them how tolerant of Islam they feel . Probably feel the same way that the families of people that died in Norway feel about Christian Extremists. You can be tolerant of Islam without being tolerant of Islamic extremists....
LilMissFox Posted 3 September 2011 Posted 3 September 2011 I don't give a damn about any religion either but when it is used as an excuse to kill fellow human beings It's time to wake up and counter that threat . Sadly the murder victims in London never got the chance to shake hands with their murderers who gave them no respect what so ever. They died as a result of religious indoctrination carried out in the mosques in this country . Go knock on the doors of the victims families and ask them how tolerant of Islam they feel . Gotta agree with you there, it does my head in, cuz then we're all portrayed as the same, I respect my religion but I'd kill those that say "religion says we should do these things" ...what it says is to respect everyone's beliefs jus don't do what they do... e.g drink/smoke etc. As for the not allowed to shake hands bollocks don't think I've heard that , apart from this documentary a while back about a Muslim convert who became an extremist n said he wasn't allowed to shake hands wiv a non-believer and he wouldn't even shake his own brother's hand! ...ridiculous! ...and EDL are just as bad as Muslim extremists!
Guest MattP Posted 3 September 2011 Posted 3 September 2011 They're probably still pissed off that we slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Muslims in the crusades, in the name of Jesus The Muslim crusades weren't happy affairs
zubi Posted 3 September 2011 Posted 3 September 2011 I agree zubi but what i do not understand is the desire of Muslims to settle in a country that is completely at odds with their faith culture and way of life . No drinking betting and their women made to dress head to toe with just a little eye slit to look out of . Now i find that particular offensive given in this country women fought damn hard for equality and to end subjugation. Would I like to immigrate to a Muslim country with no drinking and where women are stoned to death for adultery because of some medieval religion . Too bloody right I wouldn't so why did they come here in the first place if every thing is at odds with their own way of life ? How can they possibly integrate into our way of life when theirs is just the opposite ? These are just questions i would like answered and it's nothing to do with being a racist it's just that I can not see a way forward for us as a unified society when one particular section clearly hates every thing we stand for . You have to understand that Islam is a religion which people practice all of the world, just like the other monotheistic religions. It's practiced in the far east, middle east, Africa, South and North america and Europe. All these continents have extremly different cultures, so it's not like their is a country that is so unwelcoming to Islam. Like I said before, maybe they won't integrate when it comes to the drinking, gambling, fornication side of the Britain, but their are plenty of ways they can integrate in other ways. As for the women dressing head to toe, well the niqaab is a different matter, when you are refering to the hijab you have to understand they are doing this out of modesty and for their own protection from the eyes of men. Now on the opposite side, most girls today are wearing butt shorts in public, low cut tops and are pretty much walking around saying "I am easy, come get me boys". You may find it uneasy when seeing women dressed from head to toe, but others may find it uneasy seeing a women with hardly any clothes on... especially that ugly ones
zubi Posted 3 September 2011 Posted 3 September 2011 It's one thing to be shouting errant nonsense about homosexuals through a Megaphone it's a different matter when you blow innocent people to death in the name of your religion. Hatred against our society is being preached in mosques in this country indeed they do it openly in public that is a fact . Posters and chanting of Islamification of the British nation are now the norm and even poster declaring areas of great Britain to be under shah-era law have also taken place . In both of those incidents I did not see one level headed moderate Muslim counter protesting saying "you do not represent us " that says it all for me . We are a tolerant society and I am very proud of that fact , go back to the thirties when Oswald Mosley and his fascist thugs got very little support from the public in fact they were shouted down and fought in the streets by ordinary men and women our sense of fair play won the day . Yet here we are seventy odd years later tolerating the same rabid fanaticism on our streets only this time it's from Muslim extremists . That tolerance has been betrayed and the result is innocent people on a bus and on the tube paying for that tolerance with their lives . Until people see the good moderate Muslims stand up and be counted ( and I am sure they are the majority ) the over all image of Islam will continue to be judged by those few fanatics , and people will continue to see them as outsiders and not part of our society. Well yes Anjem Chaudry decided to make East London a shariah law zone... without consulting any Muslim leaders or the Muslim community. Again these are the actions of one man and a few of his cronies. But it's not something that all Muslims wanted. When it comes to Shariah law, it is only available in Law courts when Muslims need to settle matters with eachother. Not when a Muslim needs to settle matters with non muslims. The problem is most people don't realise their are Jewish law courts and Hindu law courts etc in this country. They are needed for the religious people to go about with their religious matters. Whatever occurs in these courts has no influence over government law. I agree with you that Muslims need to stand up with the people of Britain and say that they do not want extremism in this country, and they do not want extremism full stop. In fact its quite contradictary for these extremist muslims to be how they are considering the religion strongly opposes murder and harm to a muslim or non muslim neighbour. Just like Christianity and the "love thy neighbour" teaching. Isnt the penalty for Apostacy ? in the Muslim Faith...... Death Just asking It's the same in Judaism
zubi Posted 3 September 2011 Posted 3 September 2011 Gotta agree with you there, it does my head in, cuz then we're all portrayed as the same, I respect my religion but I'd kill those that say "religion says we should do these things" ...what it says is to respect everyone's beliefs jus don't do what they do... e.g drink/smoke etc. As for the not allowed to shake hands bollocks don't think I've heard that , apart from this documentary a while back about a Muslim convert who became an extremist n said he wasn't allowed to shake hands wiv a non-believer and he wouldn't even shake his own brother's hand! ...ridiculous! ...and EDL are just as bad as Muslim extremists! Well its ashame then I suppose they don't understand their religion. Christianity... Islam... Judaism, it's all the same. Murder and extremism very much forbidden. But just dont indict every religious person on the actions of a couple of extremists It's true they are not allowed to touch a member of the opposite sex who are not family members, but a guy refusing to shake his own brothers hand because hes not a muslim? now that is a joke!
Rincewind Posted 3 September 2011 Posted 3 September 2011 The bloke in the flat next to me is a Muslim. He smokes, drinks and once when I was in his flat he showed me some porn mags. His response was to say God wants you to be happy. He has had mental problems in the past tthough. He is a decent enough feller though. never heard him shout or swear But there quite a few Muslims that put family as a priority. I've heard said the veil is a personal thing rather than religion related. It was not so long ago tht women in this country wore long dresses and half a dozen under garments. It is only since the end of WW2 that women have started to reveal more. Now you have young women wearing next to nothing drinking, swearing etc. If you were Muslim and father to a teenager daughter would you not want to protect her from this. Muslim children are brought up to respect their parents, something that is being lost. As it said in the article I posted young people from all cultures are failing to integrate into society They may feel they are forgotten or choose to be different but the problems in society cannot be blamed solely upon one group. As for shaking hands I am sure there are non-muslim people that have not spoken to relatives for years and parents that have disowned their children. It is one of the reasons there are a lot of -16 children living rough on the streets. How many under 16 Muslim children are living rough? If there is a problem in the family I expect they go to seek advice from one of their community leaders to resolve it.
Charl91 Posted 3 September 2011 Posted 3 September 2011 I wonder how many Muslims were out rioting too
Rincewind Posted 3 September 2011 Posted 3 September 2011 If you removed the number of Muslim rioters from the total there would still be enough left to cause the same damage. So that is I'm sorry to say a rather silly question. As it said in the article I posted young people from all cultures are failing to integrate into society
Charl91 Posted 3 September 2011 Posted 3 September 2011 If you removed the number of Muslim rioters from the total there would still be enough left to cause the same damage. So that is I'm sorry to say a rather silly question. As it said in the article I posted young people from all cultures are failing to integrate into society No, you misunderstand; that was a genuine question rather then a rhetorical "there were lots of Muslims in the riot". I have no clue, but If anything, I assumed the opposite, that the % percentage of Muslims would be far fewer, since I imagined their religion would be far stricter on things like that. Though, if they were out rioting, looks like they've managed to intergrate into our society pretty well
LilMissFox Posted 3 September 2011 Posted 3 September 2011 Well its ashame then I suppose they don't understand their religion. Christianity... Islam... Judaism, it's all the same. Murder and extremism very much forbidden. But just dont indict every religious person on the actions of a couple of extremists It's true they are not allowed to touch a member of the opposite sex who are not family members, but a guy refusing to shake his own brothers hand because hes not a muslim? now that is a joke! Yeah true but they're jus choosing to make up their own shit in order to kill. They're like trying to be like messiahs or summat, what they're doing is only making religion look bad, but **** em, there's Nowt you can do cuz they're ignorant people and seriously EDL?! English Defence League?! Sounds like we could use em for England against tough teams! Yeah this dude is white, n at first seemed like a good program, felt a tad happy n proud til I realised the dude took the absolute wrong approach to Islam and what it actually means and teaches you. As for the rioters, in all fairness the only REAL riots was in Tottenham, which was probably more black people seeing as the apparent reason it started was someone got shot n they thought it was meant as a racial attack?! ...the copycat rioters look a lot like chavz... Asians, well most.. like to follow crowds, but saying Muslims were there, maybe some were trying to protect? I did hear there was a lot of these so called rioters trying to attack mosques got to a point where police warned to not let young boys out for prayers, if you're out on the loot what does destroying mosques have to do with it?! Why not destroy clubs n pubs?! (Not to say I'm perfect I have been, n drank, smoked, etc, but I could live without it all) ...tits!
21st Century Fox Posted 3 September 2011 Posted 3 September 2011 It's one thing to be shouting errant nonsense about homosexuals through a Megaphone it's a different matter when you blow innocent people to death in the name of your religion. Hatred against our society is being preached in mosques in this country indeed they do it openly in public that is a fact . Posters and chanting of Islamification of the British nation are now the norm and even poster declaring areas of great Britain to be under shah-era law have also taken place . In both of those incidents I did not see one level headed moderate Muslim counter protesting saying "you do not represent us " that says it all for me . We are a tolerant society and I am very proud of that fact , go back to the thirties when Oswald Mosley and his fascist thugs got very little support from the public in fact they were shouted down and fought in the streets by ordinary men and women our sense of fair play won the day . Yet here we are seventy odd years later tolerating the same rabid fanaticism on our streets only this time it's from Muslim extremists . That tolerance has been betrayed and the result is innocent people on a bus and on the tube paying for that tolerance with their lives . Until people see the good moderate Muslims stand up and be counted ( and I am sure they are the majority ) the over all image of Islam will continue to be judged by those few fanatics , and people will continue to see them as outsiders and not part of our society. If the guy preaching preaching anti gay sentiments with megaphone was a muslim would you still feel the same or would he represent the entire Muslim faith? Try telling that to the families of abortion doctors who are murdered in the name of religion. How many white 'christians' actually go and counter protest anti-abortion or anti-gay protests? I disagree with it but I've never protested it. Muslim representatives and Muslim organisations always distance themselves and condemn extremists. Extremists who interpret the Qu'ran in their own way are no different to the Christians who interpret the Bible to their own ends.
Guest MattP Posted 3 September 2011 Posted 3 September 2011 Muslims are always going to find it hard to integrate due to their religion actually intending for them not to. Had this for years at work trying to get Muslim folk out socially and it's virtually impossible.
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