Pre Election, Prime Ministerial Debate 2

[acooling08]

When Cameron was talking about the government punishing those who've worked and paid taxes all their life and how he would change it I bet many 40+ year olds like my parents were nodding their heads in agreement. My dad is fed up with scroungers and lazy twats laying around taking benefits and getting better treatment from the gov, such as higher priority for housing.

[acooling08]

A youGov poll taken after the debate had Cameron as the clear winner - What debate were they watching??? I thought he was lacking in any substance (through gritted teeth) but he did get in some good jibes here and there.

Clegg did well on immigration forcing the issue and making a mockery out of the other two. He argued well but I thought he let the Europe issue slip a bit and completely fluffed the Pope question (by the way who the fook gave that load of wank the go ahead?). Lovely jibe at Boris.

Brown started well but lost his steam half way through and when he attacked he looked out of place. He made a purse out of that Pope question though. Regained a bit near the end and sounded authorative.

I think Clegg will still be in front come tomorrow in terms of popularit of the leaders, with the tories losing more ground to the other two.

Brown's "i think women - of which you are one" to some auld biddy was the quote of the night.

:o :o

[acooling08]

Must say I wasn't impressed with the way they all sucked up to the Cathloic vote when the question about the Pope was asked.

Yeah, because Albanian child prostitutes come here of their own accord don't they? The bastards.

WTH really? How many of the thousands of illegal immigrants entering the country are albanian child prostitiutes?

[Ultra]

Everything was set up for a Cameron victory - the rigged questions, the changes in structure (so that only half the debate took place on foreign affairs) and the shamelessly rigged production that showed audience members yawning during speeches from Brown and Clegg.

But once again the Bullingdon Boy failed to rise to the occasion. Brown's jibe ("Big society at home, Little Britain abroad") was the soundbite not only of the debate, but of the election campaign so far.

The whinge about Labour scaremongering sounded VERY hollow from someone who's run virtually an entire campaign based on smears and negativity towards both Labour and the LibDems, as well as the idea of a hung Parliament.

How Tories must wish they'd elected Ken Clarke as their leader when they had the chance. No amount of spin or rigged polling can airbrush away the fact that Cameron simply isn't up to the job.

With next week's debate set to focus on the economy, generally agreed as being favourable ground for Gordon Brown, the outcome of the election remains too close to call.

[l444ry]

Everything was set up for a Cameron victory - the rigged questions, the changes in structure (so that only half the debate took place on foreign affairs) and the shamelessly rigged production that showed audience members yawning during speeches from Brown and Clegg.

But once again the Bullingdon Boy failed to rise to the occasion. Brown's jibe ("Big society at home, Little Britain abroad") was the soundbite not only of the debate, but of the election campaign so far.

The whinge about Labour scaremongering sounded VERY hollow from someone who's run virtually an entire campaign based on smears and negativity towards both Labour and the LibDems, as well as the idea of a hung Parliament.

How Tories must wish they'd elected Ken Clarke as their leader when they had the chance. No amount of spin or rigged polling can airbrush away the fact that Cameron simply isn't up to the job.

With next week's debate set to focus on the economy, generally agreed as being favourable ground for Gordon Brown, the outcome of the election remains too close to call.

If Cameron can't come out as the clear winner of a political debate on Murdoch's Sky News then the Tories really are in the shit.

[RobHawk]

I watched the debate quite closely and thought Cameron had a shocker! Everytime he was directly challenged he skirted around the question with talk of scarmongering . He never actually answered the questions being asked. The best example of this was with free prescriptions and eye tests for the elderly. He spouted on about winter fuel payments and travel cards and never actually mentioned two of the main points Gordon Brown was trying to make. Gordon surely slipped up by saying he didnt issue those leaflets to be printed. I do think the point is still valid whether Labour added a few things on there or not.

I used to think Cameron could talk the talk but questioned if he could walk the walk. I have been extermely disapointed with both of his TV debates and don't even think he can talk the talk anymore. He can talk! But he never seems to be tackling the point. Perfect example was his cap on immigration. I dont expect a firm number 100% but a rough ball park figure would be handy. He simply just doesnt know!

Clegg looked shakey at times and it seemed at times like i had gone in a time machine to 2 weeks ago because some of his answers seemed identical! It reasons to show that alot of his answers are well prepared speeches rather than actually just saying what he thinks. I still thought overall he came out ok but there are serious question marks over some of his policys.

Gordon was the strongest for me. Certainly not inspiring but i think he really took it to the other 2 party's and generally seemed to be the only person who answered in detail. The question regarding the pope was prime example for me on why he came out on top. For me Clegg and Cameron were trying to tiptoe around the fact that we don't want to lose Catholic Votes but dont want to upset homosexuals, victims of abuse, any other member of britain who the catholic church may upset. Brown came out and actually talked about the issues on using stem cell research, abortions and other issues that we were raised. He was the only one that seemed to understand what he was saying rather than just trying not to upset anyone.

I certainly dont see Gordon Brown as a likable person but this isn't the X-factor my vote is going to the person i think can do the job of prime minister the best. I dont have to like him! So far that IMO is Gordon Brown. But im looking forward to the next debate next week to see what comes out of that!

Finally is anyone else dismayed by the amount of make up Cameron wears. All i hear from my g/f is "he's wearing liquid foundation" or "I cant believe how much make up he has on". Maybe im a bit old skool but i just find that a bit weird!

[MC Prussian]

Politics are a funny old game.

People complain about the current state of affairs, stating "no matter whether you vote Labour or Tory, you can be sure they **** it up regardless of their political affinity".

Then elections are held. People have the choice of changing things around by expressing their own political will.

Turns out either the Left or Right wins again.

And the whinging continues. So, I ask you the question: Why so chicken? Why can't you see the third way? Are most Labour or Tory voters self-loathing, masochist homophobes?

Vote for a change, fools.

[lou]

Voting for a change is great if theres a viable option... Im not convinced by Clegg at all OR some of his policies. I dont get the Clegg-love at all.

Dont like any of the party leaders, dont feel inclined to vote for any of the 3 main parties..... Im stumped - totally stumped.

[marbelladave]

If Cameron can't come out as the clear winner of a political debate on Murdoch's Sky News then the Tories really are in the shit.

Abso-fooking-lutely.

Obama's first words after meeting Cameron for the first time, were, 'What a (fooking) lightweight"!

About the only thing he has got right since his election.

Given most of the ball and hopelessly biased 'refereeing'. Cameron still failed to score heavily, rather poor really.

Brown sat back and tried to hit on the counter, a few decent moves but he looked tired and lacking ideas.

Defensive minded and unadventurous and still totally incompetent at the the processes of running a government. Red Card him.

Unable to maintain his excellent performance from the first legg, Clegg was 'double teamed' and put out of the game for long periods.

When he did emerge he was inventive and composed enough to trouble his markers.

Very tight, maybe Cameron just edged it on away goals but with a different ref...

See what I did there? After all this is still a football forum!

[Dr The Singh]

Voting for a change is great if theres a viable option... Im not convinced by Clegg at all OR some of his policies. I dont get the Clegg-love at all.

Dont like any of the party leaders, dont feel inclined to vote for any of the 3 main parties..... Im stumped - totally stumped.

Same here, the televised debates haven't cleared anything up for me, infact i'm even more disturbed and confused, and all of them are so similar!!!

Politics are a funny old game.

People complain about the current state of affairs, stating "no matter whether you vote Labour or Tory, you can be sure they **** it up regardless of their political affinity".

Then elections are held. People have the choice of changing things around by expressing their own political will.

Turns out either the Left or Right wins again.

And the whinging continues. So, I ask you the question: Why so chicken? Why can't you see the third way? Are most Labour or Tory voters self-loathing, masochist homophobes?

Vote for a change, fools.

The only party that offers any real change is BNP, or maybe UKIP..........I think i'll give change a miss, thanks!!

[MC Prussian]

Lou and Singhmeister, I see you point. If you cannot identify with one of the party leaders or the party's politics, the choice is tough.

Would you rather have the Green Party participate in the debate as well? Or another, fifth party (and no, not the BMP!!! ) ?

BUT... given the choices, and knowing two of them stand for established politics, representing the two parties that have had such a dominant imprint on Britain over the past 85 to 90 (?) years, politics that have always been surrounded by scandals (both on the left and on the right), try to vote for the one that comes closest to your own beliefs and interests.

At least you know that you have done the best you could yourself.

Still better than putting in a blank vote (although I know it's another valid democratic choice) - what are the odds of blank-voters either continuing being ignorant to politics overall or moaning (even more) about the way things are done?

[RobHawk]

Politics are a funny old game.

People complain about the current state of affairs, stating "no matter whether you vote Labour or Tory, you can be sure they **** it up regardless of their political affinity".

Then elections are held. People have the choice of changing things around by expressing their own political will.

Turns out either the Left or Right wins again.

And the whinging continues. So, I ask you the question: Why so chicken? Why can't you see the third way? Are most Labour or Tory voters self-loathing, masochist homophobes?

Vote for a change, fools.

Im in a position where i dont complain about where we are now! whats the point it doesn't make things better. I really struggle to like the conservatives. I don't like Cameron and i can remember what life was like before 1997. It wasn't good. Its easy to blame labour for wehere we are now and thats what everyone seems to like doing.

The global economy completely crashed and we would have been in the shit no matter who was in power! I think its important to realise that. Nearly every country in the world has been effected. My question is where would we be had the Lib dems or conservatives been in power??

History shows us the conservatives do not do well during financial crisis. I think had they been in power unemployment would be worse the recovery would be slower and generally we would be in much worse state of affairs. Lib Dems? Well i honestly don't know. I havent seen enough of them as a party to say.

So instead of complaining why dont we think about where we could be had the other parties been in charge. I dont like Gordon Brown and im not a staunch Labour voter but so far during this election he seems to be the best candidate. Having seen the conservatives in power i dont actually think GB has done too badly as a prime minister. Its easy to attack the party for the last 13 years but as a prime minister he has done ok. Nothing spectacular, hes no barack obama or anything but hes getting the job done!

Thats my opinion and im sure people will disagree with me! And i welcome that. But i hate this thought of things have never been worse than they are now! I can assure you things could be alot worse! And certainly have been!

[Jon the Hat]

Politics are a funny old game.

People complain about the current state of affairs, stating "no matter whether you vote Labour or Tory, you can be sure they **** it up regardless of their political affinity".

Then elections are held. People have the choice of changing things around by expressing their own political will.

Turns out either the Left or Right wins again.

And the whinging continues. So, I ask you the question: Why so chicken? Why can't you see the third way? Are most Labour or Tory voters self-loathing, masochist homophobes?

Vote for a change, fools.

Who is the fool?

Clegg talks about Trident, but has no plan for what to replace it with, and no clue how much it will cost. He thinks Iran can have nuclear weapons but we should not. Thinks a bunch of Generals are somehow best place to make long term strategic decisions about nuclear weaponry. This is a political question of national security and Cleggs approach is downright dangerous. He wants to make a 30 year decision based on the threats we face right now. This is short sighted and frankly stupid.

Clegg talks about immigration, and wants to continue Labours open door policy. Worse he thinks letting everyone who is here stay won't make us even more atractive to illegal immigrants.

Clegg wants closer integration with Europe, becuase he worked there and liked it? Doesn't care that the country is mostly unconvinced by being in the EU at all. Offers a referendum on EU membership becuase he knows he will never have to have one. It would be funny though. Skirted around this not wanting to admit his pro-Europe stance.

Clegg wants proportional representation becuase he thinks it will give him more power. How is this different from Labour and Tories preferring first past the post becuase it gives them more power?

Clegg is playing the outsider, but he is a public shcool educated aristocratic former Tory, assistant to Leon Britten, MEP trougher and professional lobbyist, and the only reason he was not in the Bullingdon club was because he went to Cambridge instead of Oxford.

[Jon the Hat]

Im in a position where i dont complain about where we are now! whats the point it doesn't make things better. I really struggle to like the conservatives. I don't like Cameron and i can remember what life was like before 1997. It wasn't good. Its easy to blame labour for wehere we are now and thats what everyone seems to like doing.

The global economy completely crashed and we would have been in the shit no matter who was in power! I think its important to realise that. Nearly every country in the world has been effected. My question is where would we be had the Lib dems or conservatives been in power??

History shows us the conservatives do not do well during financial crisis. I think had they been in power unemployment would be worse the recovery would be slower and generally we would be in much worse state of affairs. Lib Dems? Well i honestly don't know. I havent seen enough of them as a party to say.

So instead of complaining why dont we think about where we could be had the other parties been in charge. I dont like Gordon Brown and im not a staunch Labour voter but so far during this election he seems to be the best candidate. Having seen the conservatives in power i dont actually think GB has done too badly as a prime minister. Its easy to attack the party for the last 13 years but as a prime minister he has done ok. Nothing spectacular, hes no barack obama or anything but hes getting the job done!

Thats my opinion and im sure people will disagree with me! And i welcome that. But i hate this thought of things have never been worse than they are now! I can assure you things could be alot worse! And certainly have been!

You are so blind to the truth that argument is pointless.

[lou]

Im in a position where i dont complain about where we are now! whats the point it doesn't make things better. I really struggle to like the conservatives. I don't like Cameron and i can remember what life was like before 1997. It wasn't good. Its easy to blame labour for wehere we are now and thats what everyone seems to like doing.

Its great now of course

13 years not long enough to do anything positive no?

[Sir Fynwy]

Who is the fool?

Clegg talks about Trident, but has no plan for what to replace it with, and no clue how much it will cost. He thinks Iran can have nuclear weapons but we should not. Thinks a bunch of Generals are somehow best place to make long term strategic decisions about nuclear weaponry. This is a political question of national security and Cleggs approach is downright dangerous. He wants to make a 30 year decision based on the threats we face right now. This is short sighted and frankly stupid.

Clegg talks about immigration, and wants to continue Labours open door policy. Worse he thinks letting everyone who is here stay won't make us even more atractive to illegal immigrants.

Clegg wants closer integration with Europe, becuase he worked there and liked it? Doesn't care that the country is mostly unconvinced by being in the EU at all. Offers a referendum on EU membership becuase he knows he will never have to have one. It would be funny though. Skirted around this not wanting to admit his pro-Europe stance.

Clegg wants proportional representation becuase he thinks it will give him more power. How is this different from Labour and Tories preferring first past the post becuase it gives them more power?

Clegg is playing the outsider, but he is a public shcool educated aristocratic former Tory, assistant to Leon Britten, MEP trougher and professional lobbyist, and the only reason he was not in the Bullingdon club was because he went to Cambridge instead of Oxford.

You sound just like Cameron, going on the attack but not putting any real policy forward, if the Tories lose it will be because they are so negative, the way the right wing press has gone about trying to discredit Clegg is stupid and shows that the Tories are very concerned, a show of weakness that is likely to hit them on polling day.

As I said earlier I am willing to vote for anyone that shows they deserve my vote, I'm not finding that the way the right is going about it is drawing me any closer to them. Stop having hissy fits and put forward some decent policy rather than pushing the 'Change' line that they've nicked from Obama.

[RobHawk]

Its great now of course

13 years not long enough to do anything positive no?

No its not brilliant! But i think it could be alot worse! I do think things are better!! I noticed on the Skynews info bar along the bottom they were saying crime is dropping, and so is unemployment.

The NHS for example, has vastly improved! Waiting times are down significantly from pre1997 and most people who use the NHS would agree its a brilliant service. Its still not perfect but it is definately better. I think 13 years is such a long time its easy to forget the good that has happened in that time.

Like i said thats what i think anyway! Yes its not great but it could be a whole lot worse.

[RobHawk]

You are so blind to the truth that argument is pointless.

I gave my opinion, i am quite open to what anybody has to tell me. I might not agree but i would certainly respect their views and listen to what they said whether i agree with them or not! Every person in the world has a different life and feels differently about things. I wouldn't want everybody to agree with my views.

At least have the decency to respond in a constructive manner or just dont bother at all. You don't know me and if im so blinded by the truth then maybe you could care to enlighten me on what you think to what i have said. I simply expressed my opinion on what i have seen and you have responded in a negitive manner just because you don't agree.

[lou]

No its not brilliant! But i think it could be alot worse! I do think things are better!! I noticed on the Skynews info bar along the bottom they were saying crime is dropping, and so is unemployment.

The NHS for example, has vastly improved! Waiting times are down significantly from pre1997 and most people who use the NHS would agree its a brilliant service. Its still not perfect but it is definately better. I think 13 years is such a long time its easy to forget the good that has happened in that time.

Like i said thats what i think anyway! Yes its not great but it could be a whole lot worse.

Im old enough to remember both eras to be honest ( ) I not going to vote Tory but I cant stand the thought of this shower staying in power either..... I just think after 13 years its time to stop saying this is all down to the Torys last stint... it isnt. New Labour havent made any better a job of it than the Tories did IMO. I honestly dont believe Crime has dropped, they must be reporting things differently as all I see on the news is murder after murder these days?

Just cant see who will sort this all out though thats the trouble

[RobHawk]

Im old enough to remember both eras to be honest ( ) I not going to vote Tory but I cant stand the thought of this shower staying in power either..... I just think after 13 years its time to stop saying this is all down to the Torys last stint... it isnt. New Labour havent made any better a job of it than the Tories did IMO. I honestly dont believe Crime has dropped, they must be reporting things differently as all I see on the news is murder after murder these days?

Just cant see who will sort this all out though thats the trouble

I actually agree with you on this! I think British politics is really struggling right now and in some respects they all seem as bad as each other! I've made it clear who my vote is with at the moment but agree with you that they really should have done more in the last 13 years. I think labour have turned a corner over the last few years and seem to slowly improving things. I know Gordon Brown kept going on about the points system for immigration but from my job (where i deal with alot of international students) the system has really improved over the last few years. They should have done it earlier but the was Tony Blairs decision not Gordon Browns. Same party yes and we should treat them as the same really, but i think gordon brown is slowly turning things around. alot of the old "Blairites" have gone too, which i think was really important for labour to look forward and not back.

Its all still my opinion and i think in some ways we feel very similar about politics overall. Thanks for your comments anyway its nice to share ideas and feelings and to understand how other people feel about the country at this time!

[marbelladave]

Who is the fool?

Clegg talks about Trident, but has no plan for what to replace it with, and no clue how much it will cost. He thinks Iran can have nuclear weapons but we should not. Thinks a bunch of Generals are somehow best place to make long term strategic decisions about nuclear weaponry. This is a political question of national security and Cleggs approach is downright dangerous. He wants to make a 30 year decision based on the threats we face right now. This is short sighted and frankly stupid.

Clegg talks about immigration, and wants to continue Labours open door policy. Worse he thinks letting everyone who is here stay won't make us even more atractive to illegal immigrants.

Clegg wants closer integration with Europe, becuase he worked there and liked it? Doesn't care that the country is mostly unconvinced by being in the EU at all. Offers a referendum on EU membership becuase he knows he will never have to have one. It would be funny though. Skirted around this not wanting to admit his pro-Europe stance.

Clegg wants proportional representation becuase he thinks it will give him more power. How is this different from Labour and Tories preferring first past the post becuase it gives them more power?

Clegg is playing the outsider, but he is a public shcool educated aristocratic former Tory, assistant to Leon Britten, MEP trougher and professional lobbyist, and the only reason he was not in the Bullingdon club was because he went to Cambridge instead of Oxford.

Wow, I am in awe!

Every single point is a willful distortion of what was said and totally mis-represented to fit in with your arguments

Congratulations, you should be a professional politician.:appl:

[Dr The Singh]

I actually agree with you on this! I think British politics is really struggling right now and in some respects they all seem as bad as each other! I've made it clear who my vote is with at the moment but agree with you that they really should have done more in the last 13 years. I think labour have turned a corner over the last few years and seem to slowly improving things. I know Gordon Brown kept going on about the points system for immigration but from my job (where i deal with alot of international students) the system has really improved over the last few years. They should have done it earlier but the was Tony Blairs decision not Gordon Browns. Same party yes and we should treat them as the same really, but i think gordon brown is slowly turning things around. alot of the old "Blairites" have gone too, which i think was really important for labour to look forward and not back.

Its all still my opinion and i think in some ways we feel very similar about politics overall. Thanks for your comments anyway its nice to share ideas and feelings and to understand how other people feel about the country at this time!

Due to Labours recent incompetances, 16 of my relatives from the punjab have just come in on student visa's, non of them are students. The system is sooooo beatable that many of them are over 30, and never seen a teacher in there lives!!

Infact the situation has got so bad, there's 40000 so called students, infact there here for work and money, sleeping on the streets of Southall. The largest Sikh temple in Southall (if you already didn't know, all SIkh temples offer free food to all), which had a all day kitchen, couldn't cope with the demand, and couldn't house these students. Many are resorting to crime and prostitution as they can't get work. The Sikh authorities have complained to the government to stop all this nonsense and tighten the system to allow geniune students only. They asked the government to arrange flights home for these people. What has the government done, you know the answer...........

[lou]

I actually agree with you on this! I think British politics is really struggling right now and in some respects they all seem as bad as each other! I've made it clear who my vote is with at the moment but agree with you that they really should have done more in the last 13 years. I think labour have turned a corner over the last few years and seem to slowly improving things. I know Gordon Brown kept going on about the points system for immigration but from my job (where i deal with alot of international students) the system has really improved over the last few years. They should have done it earlier but the was Tony Blairs decision not Gordon Browns. Same party yes and we should treat them as the same really, but i think gordon brown is slowly turning things around. alot of the old "Blairites" have gone too, which i think was really important for labour to look forward and not back.

Its all still my opinion and i think in some ways we feel very similar about politics overall. Thanks for your comments anyway its nice to share ideas and feelings and to understand how other people feel about the country at this time!

Indeed it is, when it can be done sensibly. Politics is something people are always going to have strong differing views about. A lot of it comes down the generations I find too. Most people I know will vote for the party that their parents voted for and not even look into the others policies... As mine were Tory voters I dont do that!

I must admit I prefer Brown MASSIVELY to Blair who I never liked or trusted and I think hes done the Labour party a lot of damage <_<

[RobHawk]

Due to Labours recent incompetances, 16 of my relatives from the punjab have just come in on student visa's, non of them are students. The system is sooooo beatable that many of them are over 30, and never seen a teacher in there lives!!

Infact the situation has got so bad, there's 40000 so called students, infact there here for work and money, sleeping on the streets of Southall. The largest Sikh temple in Southall (if you already didn't know, all SIkh temples offer free food to all), which had a all day kitchen, couldn't cope with the demand, and couldn't house these students. Many are resorting to crime and prostitution as they can't get work. The Sikh authorities have complained to the government to stop all this nonsense and tighten the system to allow geniune students only. They asked the government to arrange flights home for these people. What has the government done, you know the answer...........

Well the Tier 4 Visa structure is still being put in place. It will be fully live as of September and has been partly enforced this year. I can assure you that no person will be allowed in on a student visa if they are not a student, and if they do not enroll with the university,the university has to report this to the UK boarder Agency. The University has to do this by Law. Its a pain for me because Its created alot more work in my department. The old system was awful and what you have written does not surprize me at all! But having dealt with tier 4 Student visas this year i can assure you the change should make a huge difference!

You make a really valid point though, and it goes back to what Lou was saying, they have had 13 years and only now are doing something about it. Better late than never but i agree with you this really was a problem. Hopefully by September it will be a problem of the past. From what i have seen it should work and be alot more efficient than the previous student visa rules. I guess only time will tell!

[Jon the Hat]

You sound just like Cameron, going on the attack but not putting any real policy forward, if the Tories lose it will be because they are so negative, the way the right wing press has gone about trying to discredit Clegg is stupid and shows that the Tories are very concerned, a show of weakness that is likely to hit them on polling day.

As I said earlier I am willing to vote for anyone that shows they deserve my vote, I'm not finding that the way the right is going about it is drawing me any closer to them. Stop having hissy fits and put forward some decent policy rather than pushing the 'Change' line that they've nicked from Obama.

Sorry but Clegg looks good on TV but has crap policies. He sounds convincing but is not actually saying anything. As Gordon likes to say this is not the X factor.

The Tories are the only party who actually get that people feel hard done by. Those who actually pay taxes and work hard feel like those who don't are taking the piss and getting away with it. The Police can catch drivers speeding a little, but not stop yobs making town centres no go areas at night. This is just a single example of the result of Labour spending years putting in place a controlling centralised bureaucracy which makes it nearly impossible for those in the public sector to do their jobs efficiently or to change things in a positive way. The Tories are going to take that bureacracy out. And frankly they are the ONLY party you can trust to be able to do it properly. The other will faff around the edges. Torys are good at cost cutting, and the rest are good at spending. This is the way of the world. We have had too long of Labour and now we need the Tories to sort out the mess like they always do.