Fosse Boy Posted 17 May 2010 Share Posted 17 May 2010 Seeing all these threads flying around about atmosphere at City games at the moment has got me thinking about atmosphere in general in this country, more specifically about the number of Ultras groups that have formed in recent years and attach themselves to various clubs up and down the land. Movements such as the Green Brigade at Celtic and Jorvik Reds at York City have undoubtedly announced themselves as bona fide Ultras who carry out the sort of stunning visual displays (tifos) and choreographed chanting that you would would expect to find at games on the continent week in, week out (albeit perhaps not on the same scale). In fact, we don’t even have to look beyond our own division to find the Holmesdale Fanatics at Palace, whose hard work over a number of years to win over hearts and minds at their club and change the culture of their fans appears to be paying dividends, and they are now spreading their message and the Ultra mentality to the masses at Selhurst Park. For my money they were one of the best home supports we’ve come up against in recent years, even outsinging us when we scored (and Leicester fans were on form that night too!) We’ve also seen an increase in the usage of pyro (flares, smoke bombs etc.) in England too, including at our own games over the course of this season, in spite of the huge risks that users face by setting them off under the noses of the stewards and police. While it does seem that a number of copycat groups have also been started who don’t really understand the scene or the culture (let’s face it, anyone can nick another team’s songbook, wave a flag around for thirty seconds before a game - after first being granted permission by their club’s safety officer to do so - and claim to be an Ultra), it does seem that something may be beginning to twig in the psyche of the English fan, and that people are beginning to question the stale atmospheres and overzealous policing & stewarding that they are forced to endure on a weekly bais throughout the season. It got me wondering, is the mentality of the English football fan changing? Can this fledgling Ultras scene evolve into something more substantial in England, and are we soon going to see clued up groups springing up left, right and centre? I’m not talking about club authorised singing sections or card displays, but genuine Ultras groups singing original songs, waving banners of rebellion and generally bringing the soul back to English football again. Obviously English football has always had a unique culture and a flavour to its support which sadly seems to be found wanting at most grounds these days through a combination of factors – the monopoly Sky Sports has on the game and the affect that has had on the demogrpahics found at football grounds, fascist-acting Health & Safety officers, perhaps even the general apathy and stereotypically English attitude of the majority of supporters who seem content to do as they’re told by men in fluorescent jackets, but do no more than moan about it in retaliation. Perhaps it’s time for a more radical approach to be adopted by those who want to save the soul of football in this country. Perhaps it’s time for the Ultras? Genuinely interested to hear people’s opinions on this. Green Brigade Corteo (March) to Hampden Park for Scottish Youth Cup final against Rangers Jorvik Reds display at Woking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podge Posted 17 May 2010 Share Posted 17 May 2010 I think it can, it seems to have started to take root in Scotland, at a high level, with not only the green brigade but isn't there also the Jungle Bhoys at Celtic? plus The Blue Order and Union Bears at Rangers and Red Ultras in Aberdeen I think. As you pointed out it seems to be happening here Palace are the largest example here with smaller clubs like York and don't Accrington also have an ultras group? For it to take off properly within English football I think it would have to be slightly different to the European style just because I see English fans just not wanting to be seen to be copying the Europeans. Although if some larger clubs can get groups going alongside Palace, like us for example :wub: and show off the atmosphere that can be created by Ultras to fans who don't really have any interest in European fan culture and then it may well spread. If we could get something like this going I would be more then up for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dandannieldanok Posted 17 May 2010 Share Posted 17 May 2010 Interesting talking point. I'm sure it can work, but in moderation..... People may get annoyed by heavy-handed and authoritarian stewarding/policy (which at times is fully justified criticism granted), but it is all in the name of stopping fatalities. England may not have found a good balance between safety and allowing supporters to express themselves fully, in comparison to the likes of Germany et al, but if I'm honest I'd rather have overbearing stewarding rather than non-existent, 'let everything go' stewarding. Boring? Yes. But I'd be absolutely horrified if anything on any kind of scale similar to the likes of Hillsbrough happen again in football. By the way, I'm not trying to insinuate ultras cause trouble and cause fatalities, not at all, but things can get out of hand unintentionally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilo Posted 17 May 2010 Share Posted 17 May 2010 Excellent post and some superb observations made there. I don't agree with those who say that English football is too culturally different from the rest of Europe. After all, many Ultra groups will see this country as the cradle of vocal, fanatical support and many take their influences from English supporter's groups and the once excellent vocal support that used to pre-dominate in this country. Two major events ended this culture, the Heysel disaster 25 years ago and Hillsborough in 1989. Actually, more accurately, it was the reaction of the authorities to those two tragedies that helped to kill any chance of a modern Ultra movement at birth in this country. The paraphernalia associated with Ultra groups such as flares, flags on poles became potential weapons of hooligans in the eyes of authorities because of Heysel, and standing in stadia became about as safe as playing Russian roulette with an AK47 judging by the FA's reaction. Sky Sports' dominance of football is another problem. The knock-on effects such as raised ticket prices, messed up kick-off times and plastic fans who 'support' clubs 200 miles away from where they live have severely negatively impacted upon atmospheres in stadiums. Character grounds have gone to be replaced by soul-less bowls that do not lend themselves well to a good atmosphere, it's not impossible to build a new stadium with a great atmosphere as Germany proves, but too many grounds have been built in this country with a family atmosphere in mind. Our stadium is a case in point, if the club had allowed the Kop to be built next to the away fans, Filbert Way would be one intimidating place. So does this mean the hopes are dead? No, it doesn't. Lower league clubs such as York and Oxford have set up successful Ultra groups, and Celtic have done it north of the border. The Holmesdale Fanatics show it's possible in the higher echelons of the English league system, so long as you have the will to fight the authorities for it and some of the most twattish stewards in the Championship. To have whole areas of the stadiums jumping with tifos and flares is probably a distant dream, but there's no reason why we can't start to build it ourselves next season. L and K have huge potential in this area. We already have key ingredients in there with fans who stand and sing for 90 minutes every game, a potential 'capo' in Jobber and a number of fans who genuinely don't seem to care about authorities. The main things that stop it becoming a true Ultra section are unimaginative/generic songs and a lack of the paraphernalia I mentioned earlier. That said though,the stewards in L & K are less than Hitlerish and allow us to express our support in this way. So on a Leicester front, so long as we have the will and determination to expand our Ultra mentality and improve what could become a very special place to be, the future may be bright. On a national front, I'm not so sure. Some of the support we've encountered has been bloody awful, with the supporters seemingly having their spirit broken by authorities who hate atmosphere. Could you really imagine a proper Ultra section at the Ricoh Arena? Or stadium:mk? There will be some clubs who'll be left behind. But I honestly think that there is a growing number of fans who are finally getting the balls to say bollocks to the authorities in order to build an atmosphere. We've been treated like shit for too long and we're standing up to be counted now. The Ultra mentality has its roots in England. With sheer bloody-mindedness and determination, it can and will return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcfc"weasel" Posted 17 May 2010 Share Posted 17 May 2010 How do you go about starting something like this off though? Would be fantastic to have something like what is shown on the Celtic video above for Leicester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcfcadam Posted 17 May 2010 Share Posted 17 May 2010 Jorvik Reds display at Woking Wait a sec - how the hell do these guys get to set off all manner of pyro shit without there being mass panic amongst the stewards and police, and official club enquiries etc? They even set it off at Wembley in another of the videos on their site? And also, what's happened to all the people that were calling one single flare stupid and dangerous, surely they should be up in arms about such a scandalous disregard for health and safety?! As for me, I'm bloody tempted to join them - looks like they share my mentality unlike seemingly everyone else... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samlcfc Posted 17 May 2010 Share Posted 17 May 2010 Quality bit of informational writing there. I think that the atmosphere at games could definately be bought to this level across the leagues. It would just have to work its way up to that sort of point. To have this sort of thing going on at a large number of clubs would take time because first of all its have to become apparent to the fans that it is possible, I thinkl the key to it is power in numbers. You can force a small number of "unruly" fans to leave a game but not when it gets towards or above the 100 mark I wouldnt have thought, But then i might be underestimating the health and safety brigade . I think the number of people at games that would love to be involved in something like this would be very high and thats where it is complicated. The roots of this kind of atmosphere as you say are apparent in the English game. Getting the Atmosphere congregated in one section however and finding the order would take aworking idea that could bring it all together. The problem is coming up with that idea. It is possible that this could become something substantial but its going to take some time and quite a bit of work from some people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floating Fox Posted 17 May 2010 Share Posted 17 May 2010 If it was to work it would take a hell of a lot of dedaction from a small group of people that don't mind looking, as some might say, "stupid" to start off with and being ridiculed by the masses. I do think it can work though, FORZA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Posted 17 May 2010 Share Posted 17 May 2010 It CAN be done. But it won't. As always, many people will say they're up for something, and then they all slowly drop out. It takes a lot of hard work and dedication. The main problem is, the people like AFIE, Arab and Floating Fox (Out of our club, most likely to get it started too.) prefer it continental styleeeee, and a lot of people who don't have much of a clue about the whole "ultra thing" won't like it. That's my take on it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey Posted 17 May 2010 Share Posted 17 May 2010 It CAN be done. But it won't. As always, many people will say they're up for something, and then they all slowly drop out. It takes a lot of hard work and dedication. The main problem is, the people like AFIE, Arab and Floating Fox (Out of our club, most likely to get it started too.) prefer it continental styleeeee, and a lot of people who don't have much of a clue about the whole "ultra thing" won't like it. That's my take on it anyway. Pretty much how I feel about it. Would LOVE it to happen, and would support it in any way possible, but just can't see Leicester having the numbers to go through with it. Also agree with your second point. English fans seem to be very patriotic in the way they support their club, and doing anything similar to what is done in Europe, and especially Germany, would almost be seen as betrayal in a strange English kind of way. If something could be done to make it more 'English' then I think it would be more popular. Having said this, it would be amazing if it did happen more in England, and think that it is possible, but won't be as successful as in other countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamL Posted 18 May 2010 Share Posted 18 May 2010 Some very good observations there AFIE. I do believe that we have the foundations for an Ultra movement both at Leicester and across the United Kingdom. To begin with, all you really need are a few LADs (AFIE, Arab, Floating Fox, JME etc) to have a keen interest in the Ultra Culture/Mentality that we see across Europe, who are also willing to put themselves on the line for the cause. I think that perhaps one of the main stumbling blocks is that people aren't educated on the subject. I don't think it's something that can appear over night, it's going to take a lot of planning and dedication by those interested. It's going to take people like Bilo, AFIE, Arab etc. to spread the word if you like, to provide some sort of education to the masses. If it's started, it's only going to take a few uneducated ****** to try something which could just be an embarrassment to all those involved. From a personal point of view, I would definitely be interested in helping to form some sort of Ultra group, like the ones seen at both Celtic and Palace. If we're going to do it, it's got to be done properly. What you don't want to do is start up some school-boy group, it's got to be well planned and thought through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexikokopops Posted 18 May 2010 Share Posted 18 May 2010 Excellent post and some superb observations made there. I don't agree with those who say that English football is too culturally different from the rest of Europe. After all, many Ultra groups will see this country as the cradle of vocal, fanatical support and many take their influences from English supporter's groups and the once excellent vocal support that used to pre-dominate in this country. Two major events ended this culture, the Heysel disaster 25 years ago and Hillsborough in 1989. Actually, more accurately, it was the reaction of the authorities to those two tragedies that helped to kill any chance of a modern Ultra movement at birth in this country. The paraphernalia associated with Ultra groups such as flares, flags on poles became potential weapons of hooligans in the eyes of authorities because of Heysel, and standing in stadia became about as safe as playing Russian roulette with an AK47 judging by the FA's reaction. Sky Sports' dominance of football is another problem. The knock-on effects such as raised ticket prices, messed up kick-off times and plastic fans who 'support' clubs 200 miles away from where they live have severely negatively impacted upon atmospheres in stadiums. Character grounds have gone to be replaced by soul-less bowls that do not lend themselves well to a good atmosphere, it's not impossible to build a new stadium with a great atmosphere as Germany proves, but too many grounds have been built in this country with a family atmosphere in mind. Our stadium is a case in point, if the club had allowed the Kop to be built next to the away fans, Filbert Way would be one intimidating place. You just have to look at the scenes at Luton recently (for example) to know there are still some idiots out there. As long as there are people still acting like dicks at games then football fans are always going to we treated worst, as a hangover from the whole of the 80s (not just Heysel). People shouldn't blame the police etc. for the way football fans are treated, but should blame the minority of idiots that ruin it for everyone. Sorry, that's just a random aside. I just want to be able to stand in my seat and drink beer (like I did at Wembley a couple of weeks ago when watching Saracens vs Harlequins). Forza Ultras, and all that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-man Posted 18 May 2010 Share Posted 18 May 2010 Off to see Aldershot tomorrow night at the Don Valley. Hoping for some of these lads to be there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexikokopops Posted 18 May 2010 Share Posted 18 May 2010 Off to see Aldershot tomorrow night at the Don Valley. Hoping for some of these lads to be there I went down Aldershot to watch Lincoln play them with Fez and Kayteh. We were at the end of that stand by the looks of it and I didn't notice any Ultras! Edit: This is bollocks. Just remembered the sheer amount of flags they had draped around the place. Lincoln had a surprising amount too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fez of Mahrez Posted 18 May 2010 Share Posted 18 May 2010 Off to see Aldershot tomorrow night at the Don Valley. Hoping for some of these lads to be there Went there with Katy and Alex on the last day of the season in the away end with Lincoln, they've got some cracking flags. Speaking of flags, took mine to Cardiff last Wednesday. Planned to display it above fans heads on the final whistle as a show of triumph / defiance. 25 foot x 12.5 foot, would have got it on the telly. Gave it a try but people were pulling it down so they could clap the players who came across to us. The flags have been an absolute nightmare in truth. So much hassle for very little worth, but I enjoyed setting them up. Thinking of donating the big one to the club to display at the training ground. The ultra culture is a lot easier in the lower leagues. The top two leagues are virtually impossible to do properly. Plus the ultra types are the ones who pick their games rather than going everywhere, so the grannies who go on Fox Travel, who admittedly dip into their pockets for every single game regardless of the stadium or opposition, rule the roost. I doubt that woman with the big head would be keen on flares and giant flags. Got to stick at it though, you can't expect things to change overnight - we might get there eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCFC-ARAB Posted 18 May 2010 Share Posted 18 May 2010 Foxestalk Fanatics anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOCCERROO FOX Posted 18 May 2010 Share Posted 18 May 2010 Foxestalk Fanatics anyone? I'm keen. If it can work for Melbourne Victory it can work for Leicester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCFC-ARAB Posted 18 May 2010 Share Posted 18 May 2010 I'm keen. If it can work for Melbourne Victory it can work for Leicester. haha i was joking Foxestalk Fanatics doesnt really sound very ultra! watch this space people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOCCERROO FOX Posted 18 May 2010 Share Posted 18 May 2010 haha i was joking Foxestalk Fanatics doesnt really sound very ultra! watch this space people FFS! Foxestalk Fanatical Society. Or F.U.C.K. (Foxestalk Ultra Casuals Kollective ) the k needs work. Or Casuals Ultras No Thracians. But in all seriousness things like this actually get started from forums like this, all like minded people who love there club. It wouldn't be easy but if you wanted it to happen this would be the sort of place to start it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrenchel Posted 18 May 2010 Share Posted 18 May 2010 You just have to look at the scenes at Luton recently (for example) to know there are still some idiots out there. As long as there are people still acting like dicks at games then football fans are always going to we treated worst, as a hangover from the whole of the 80s (not just Heysel). People shouldn't blame the police etc. for the way football fans are treated, but should blame the minority of idiots that ruin it for everyone. Breeze. In no other section of society do the actions of a tiny minority justify such repression of everybody else. Plod in Germany etc seem to be able to police their nutters without taking everyone else's freedoms away. Gradually football fans in this country get better and better behaved so gradually they find more and more things to criminalise. People getting arrested and banned for swearing, making a willy puller gesture, not throwing the ball back when it goes into the crowd (true story), putting one foot over the advertising hoarding in an over jubilant celebration etc etc. Football is a cash cow for the plod and the less actual violence there is, the more ways they have to think of to try and justify their massive presence at matches where there's absolutely fvck all chance whatsoever of anything kicking off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike the Metal Ed Posted 18 May 2010 Share Posted 18 May 2010 http://www.footballg...ans_review1.htm I quite often find myself reading this Plymouth fan's review of our ground from the 2004/05 season, our atmosphere and the attitude of the stewards has moved forward quite a bit in recent seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexikokopops Posted 18 May 2010 Share Posted 18 May 2010 You just have to look at the scenes at Luton recently (for example) to know there are still some idiots out there. As long as there are people still acting like dicks at games then football fans are always going to we treated worst, as a hangover from the whole of the 80s (not just Heysel). People shouldn't blame the police etc. for the way football fans are treated, but should blame the minority of idiots that ruin it for everyone. Sorry, that's just a random aside. I just want to be able to stand in my seat and drink beer (like I did at Wembley a couple of weeks ago when watching Saracens vs Harlequins). Forza Ultras, and all that. Breeze. In no other section of society do the actions of a tiny minority justify such repression of everybody else. Plod in Germany etc seem to be able to police their nutters without taking everyone else's freedoms away. Gradually football fans in this country get better and better behaved so gradually they find more and more things to criminalise. People getting arrested and banned for swearing, making a willy puller gesture, not throwing the ball back when it goes into the crowd (true story), putting one foot over the advertising hoarding in an over jubilant celebration etc etc. Football is a cash cow for the plod and the less actual violence there is, the more ways they have to think of to try and justify their massive presence at matches where there's absolutely fvck all chance whatsoever of anything kicking off. I probably shouldn't have added "shouldn't blame the police" bit (although I thought I added "just" in there) because it made it a bit misleading. I don't condone the way that the minority can affect things in the eyes of the plod, but the small minority that are ass-hats are only going to make things worst, and provide an excuse for the massive police presence you get at games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcfc"weasel" Posted 18 May 2010 Share Posted 18 May 2010 What steps need to be taken to get this started? I imagine its more than a few of us getting together and singing for 90 minutes week in/week out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilo Posted 18 May 2010 Share Posted 18 May 2010 What steps need to be taken to get this started? I imagine its more than a few of us getting together and singing for 90 minutes week in/week out. Join an LCFC Ultra group on Facebook. There is one in particular I'm thinking and there are some bloody good blokes in there as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
potter3 Posted 18 May 2010 Share Posted 18 May 2010 Anyone remember this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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