So Many Dirty Lazy Bastards

[Lillehamring]

There's no need to teach people rape is bad, instead we'll put them off with a 50 year jail term and £5,000 fine

huh?

are you so simple that you'd compare the approach to preventing littering with the approach to preventing rape.... come on.

there are millions of people who actually practice dropping litter, and a handful of rapists.

people know that rape is bad, but many people will drop litter no matter how much you 'educate' them that it should not be done.

that's the whole point - telling someone who doesn't care and probably doesn't even realise they are littering is like pissing in the wind, but you catch the same person in the act and fine them, say, £500, they'll think twice next time.

littering and rape, insanely, need to be dealt with differently.

[davieG]

huh?

are you so simple that you'd compare the approach to preventing littering with the approach to preventing rape.... come on.

there are millions of people who actually practice dropping litter, and a handful of rapists.

people know that rape is bad, but many people will drop litter no matter how much you 'educate' them that it should not be done.

that's the whole point - telling someone who doesn't care and probably doesn't even realise they are littering is like pissing in the wind, but you catch the same person in the act and fine them, say, £500, they'll think twice next time.

littering and rape, insanely, need to be dealt with differently.

An apt phase when trying to use logical debate with Houdini it would seem.

[Lillehamring]

Not suggesting just education, but it would cost more to employ people to issue on the spot fines that it would to pick up the litter, so we either pay people to pick it up or we as a society statrt pointing out to individuals that it is cretinous behaviour.

fair enough, but the cynic in me believes that trying to point out to some people that it is cretinous behaviour is, as i say, pissing in the wind...

you know the type, the 'oh, but it creates work for somebody' and the 'well, it's dirty here anyway', brigade.

take a weeks pay off em and they might think different in the future.

[davieG]

Actually he said education will have no effect on them, hence the ridiculous statement

No he didn't he said 'relying' on education would not work.

[davieG]

fair enough, but the cynic in me believes that trying to point out to some people that it is cretinous behaviour is, as i say, pissing in the wind...

you know the type, the 'oh, but it creates work for somebody' and the 'well, it's dirty here anyway', brigade.

take a weeks pay off em and they might think different in the future.

Houdini

[Alexikokopops]

No matter how many savings they make I seriously doubt your council tax will ever decrease.

The councils pension liability will ensure that will never happen!

My council tax decreased in June!

[purpleronnie]

I find it hard to critise anyone BUT the council after they somehow found half a billion+ to invest in Icelandic banks, and that doesnt include money invested elsewhere. I understand they need to invest some (just incase) but 50million for one council to invest overseas beggers belief, how about a big reduction in tax for a while instead...yeah right! Plus having read what my local council have spent their money on baffles me but they wont do anything for my local football side, except charge them stupid amounts to play. But how about spending £250,000 to refurbish a building so people can hold meetings in it...yep thats worth it.

Bit off topic there. oops.

My council tax decreased in June!

How many times does that happen though?

[acooling08]

In addition to the fine, people should be given litter picking community service as well. I think tha would reduce it.

[Smudge]

In addition to the fine, people should be given litter picking community service as well. I think tha would reduce it.

Seems to me that the type of punishment isn't in question. problem seems to be in arresting these people in the first place.

As a matter interest who nicks these people, if anyone; the police? If it's them no wonder no-one gives a crap, whenever I'm over there I never see any.

[Houdini Logic]

huh?

are you so simple that you'd compare the approach to preventing littering with the approach to preventing rape.... come on.

there are millions of people who actually practice dropping litter, and a handful of rapists.

people know that rape is bad, but many people will drop litter no matter how much you 'educate' them that it should not be done.

that's the whole point - telling someone who doesn't care and probably doesn't even realise they are littering is like pissing in the wind, but you catch the same person in the act and fine them, say, £500, they'll think twice next time.

littering and rape, insanely, need to be dealt with differently.

Are you so simple that you missed the point that I was making and actually believed I was comparing rape and littering?

It was an extreme example, with a somewhat sardonic undertone, to try and show that it isn't always a good idea to treat these things reactively with harsh punishments and scare tactics, but rather educate people into not commiting these crimes in the first place.

It's tabloid mentality to think that every bad thing in this world can be dealt with by either scaring peopleinto not doing it or just completely hiding/censoring/banning things that we don't like (someone on here even mentioned banning chewing gum!).

My personal opinion is that we should be educating people about these things so people don't litter in the first place, but it's fair enough for you to not have that view.

Davie - I have no idea what point you are making implying that I have a 'well it's dirty here anyway' attitude?

My argument is that I don't necessarily think the number of sweepers will decrease even if people don't litter and I said that I actually think people who litter are dirty and lazy, so not quite sure where you're going with that one.

I also don't understand why the two of you are getting so petty - it's just people with different opinions

[Lillehamring]

Are you so simple that you missed the point that I was making and actually believed I was comparing rape and littering?

It was an extreme example, with a somewhat sardonic undertone, to try and show that it isn't always a good idea to treat these things reactively with harsh punishments and scare tactics, but rather educate people into not commiting these crimes in the first place.

well, you are obviously far too clever and subtle for the internet -

by making that kind of reference to rape in a discussion on littering you are, whether it was your intention or not, comparing the two things. no right minded individual would ever dream of dealing with rape with scare tactics, so i can't see what relevance the point has.

It's tabloid mentality to think that every bad thing in this world can be dealt with by either scaring peopleinto not doing it or just completely hiding/censoring/banning things that we don't like (someone on here even mentioned banning chewing gum!).

My personal opinion is that we should be educating people about these things so people don't litter in the first place, but it's fair enough for you to not have that view.

if you honestly believe you can educate the sort of neanderthals and 'dirty lazy bastards' who drop litter into any kind of responsibility, then good luck too you - if a person doesn't realise innately that dropping litter is dirty and anti-social, some well-meaning nobody is never going to change them. you seem to be living in some kind of disney dreamworld if you think that the sort of person who mindlessly drops trash or dumps an old mattress in a field will just turn round and say, 'hmm, well since you put it like that...'

Davie - I have no idea what point you are making implying that I have a 'well it's dirty here anyway' attitude?

My argument is that I don't necessarily think the number of sweepers will decrease even if people don't litter and I said that I actually think people who litter are dirty and lazy, so not quite sure where you're going with that one.

I also don't understand why the two of you are getting so petty - it's just people with different opinions

it has nothing to do with being petty, when i see someone littering it drives me crazy, because it is so easy not to - for some reason you seem to be stubbornly insisting that less litter will mean no change in the cost of managing it, and in the process suggesting that people should not be concerned with the problem of littering and the funding of cleaning it up... well, pardon us for actually caring about this matter.

for something so 'unsurprising and uninteresting', you seem very vociferous, 'one track minded' and critical of anybody trying to defend the response to the problem

[cambridgefox]

In addition to the fine, people should be given litter picking community service as well. I think tha would reduce it.

I agree,as edmund crouchback mentioned on a previous post. Singapore has a great policy on litterbugs.It is so clean.1st offence 1000 singapore$ (£500), 2nd 2000 Singapore $, plus litter picking,with a jacket, with litterbug on the back.The local media turn up and put photos in the paper aswell.Name and shame.

[Houdini Logic]

Point 1 - You seem an intelligent guy, so I don't believe you didn't get the point i was making

Point 2 - I think changes in attitude through education would provide the best results - hardly disney

Point 3 - I was talking about your posts being petty, not the issue of littering

Point 4 - I do think the original article was unsuprising and uninteresting,the fact it costs sevaral million pound to clean an entire county over the course of a year isn't particularly exciting news to me. I'm also not one track minded or critical of everyone's response - I though Davie actually made a couple of good points earlier, in particular about chewing gum which, for whatever reason, I didn't about in the context of litter. I wouldn't say vocifeous, though after being called ignorant and blinkered after my first post (which I thought was a fair post to be honest) I was intent on making my point

[coale39]

Point 1 - You seem an intelligent guy, so I don't believe you didn't get the point i was making

Point 2 - I think changes in attitude through education would provide the best results - hardly disney

Point 3 - I was talking about your posts being petty, not the issue of littering

Point 4 - I do think the original article was unsuprising and uninteresting,the fact it costs sevaral million pound to clean an entire county over the course of a year isn't particularly exciting news to me. I'm also not one track minded or critical of everyone's response - I though Davie actually made a couple of good points earlier, in particular about chewing gum which, for whatever reason, I didn't about in the context of litter. I wouldn't say vocifeous, though after being called ignorant and blinkered after my first post (which I thought was a fair post to be honest) I was intent on making my point

I really dont understand how education can help. Its like educating people not to punch random people in the face, its so blatantly bad to be pointless. And one of your main points of no correlation between amount of littering and cost doesnt seem to make any sense.

[Head Honcho]

I agree,as edmund crouchback mentioned on a previous post. Singapore has a great policy on litterbugs.It is so clean.1st offence 1000 singapore$ (£500), 2nd 2000 Singapore $, plus litter picking,with a jacket, with litterbug on the back.The local media turn up and put photos in the paper aswell.Name and shame.

Great idea but let's be honest we can't even get the fine dodgers to pay up as it is.

On the spot fine for shoplifting is what £60 and they pay it off at a quid a week the same would apply if the fine was £500 so it's not exactly a punishment is it.

Trouble is these days anyone claiming any sort of benefit or tax credit will be allowed to pay the fine in this way.

[Houdini Logic]

I really dont understand how education can help. Its like educating people not to punch random people in the face, its so blatantly bad to be pointless. And one of your main points of no correlation between amount of littering and cost doesnt seem to make any sense.

And as a child that is what we educate through socialisation.

I feel too often in this country we try to deal with things the wrong way and this is largely the result of media frenzies and political overreaction/point scoring. The Government, the Media and the general public too often think the correct way to deal with an issue is to ban/hide/censor or punish people for things that are wrong, rather than dealing with the root cause. I often think this country has a serious case of 'missing the point'. There are several examples you could take, but one that sticks in my mind is binge drinking. The Government is repeatedly calling on pubs and supermarkets to increase the price of alcohol to try and price people out of drinking it. They believe that if it's no longer available then people won't get drunk. I believe this isn't dealing with the root cause and instead we should be educating teenagers and children about the dangers (and benefits) of alcohol and allow them to apprecaite it in a social environment like they do on the continent where the attitude towards alcohol is very different. I think you need a shift in attitude, otherwise it will never work.

Going on to the point about litter and Singapore...

I believe in Singapore they have these strict fines and punishments because as a society they don't accept littering. I genuinely believe that the vast majority of people in Singapore don't litter because they believe that it's wrong and the harsh punishments reflect this. We need this sort of attitude in this country before any sort of punishment will work - otherwise it will be a case of people doing it on the fly or generally not caring about doing it anyway - if it's anything like ASBOs most people will think it's funny to be cleaning the streets with 'LitterBug' on your back. A shift in attitude has to be the way forward before anything else will work.

On my original point - I think the amount of money saved on street sweepers with a reduction in litter will be negligible, there will still be general mess/waste that should be cleaned up regardless. You may not agree, but surely that makes sense? I would say that I would be interested to see how much it costs to clean the 'cleanest' and 'dirtiest' towns in England, but that would make me somewhat interested and I would hate to contradict my original post

[Lillehamring]

And as a child that is what we educate through socialisation.

I feel too often in this country we try to deal with things the wrong way and this is largely the result of media frenzies and political overreaction/point scoring. The Government, the Media and the general public too often think the correct way to deal with an issue is to ban/hide/censor or punish people for things that are wrong, rather than dealing with the root cause. I often think this country has a serious case of 'missing the point'. There are several examples you could take, but one that sticks in my mind is binge drinking. The Government is repeatedly calling on pubs and supermarkets to increase the price of alcohol to try and price people out of drinking it. They believe that if it's no longer available then people won't get drunk. I believe this isn't dealing with the root cause and instead we should be educating teenagers and children about the dangers (and benefits) of alcohol and allow them to apprecaite it in a social environment like they do on the continent where the attitude towards alcohol is very different. I think you need a shift in attitude, otherwise it will never work.

Going on to the point about litter and Singapore...

I believe in Singapore they have these strict fines and punishments because as a society they don't accept littering. I genuinely believe that the vast majority of people in Singapore don't litter because they believe that it's wrong and the harsh punishments reflect this. We need this sort of attitude in this country before any sort of punishment will work - otherwise it will be a case of people doing it on the fly or generally not caring about doing it anyway - if it's anything like ASBOs most people will think it's funny to be cleaning the streets with 'LitterBug' on your back. A shift in attitude has to be the way forward before anything else will work.

On my original point - I think the amount of money saved on street sweepers with a reduction in litter will be negligible, there will still be general mess/waste that should be cleaned up regardless. You may not agree, but surely that makes sense? I would say that I would be interested to see how much it costs to clean the 'cleanest' and 'dirtiest' towns in England, but that would make me somewhat interested and I would hate to contradict my original post

I'm genuinely glad that you believe this and that you have faith that British culture and society can be saved and turned around, perhaps this is the crux of our disagreement here - i make no secret on here of how I've given up on Britain and can only see it getting worse and worse - the things that made Britain great are long consigned to history now, I won't start listing everything, but Britain, especially England has lost it's sense of pride and identity, little pockets cling on but are ridiculed as anachronistic and parochial.

England has become an ugly faceless sprawl, a pit of disposibilty, and the culture of casual littering and the apathy towards it being a problem by so many people nowadays is symbolic of this. good luck to you and your fellow educators, but you can't teach an old dog new tricks, and England is a very old dog.

[Alexikokopops]

The article seems to focus on street cleaning, but that was only about £4 million of the £7 million. What was the other £3 million spent on? Not just cleaning up after fly tippers surely?

[poopbutt]

the amount of shit you see on the side of the oadby bypass is crazy, no1 seems to clear it up either.

[Jon the Hat]

The problem is not that more people litter, it is that more people expect someone else to clear it up.

When was the last time any of you picked up litter you found?

I pick up litter near in and around my front garden, as do most people. I have also on several occasions picked up a load of beer cans etc from local parks of a Sunday morning, because I am sure there was litter left behind by my friends and I when we were teenagers, and because waiting a few days for the council to send someone seemed churlish when hundreds of people including kids were going to see the park that day,

On the education note, getting schoolkids out cleaning up litter once a month would soon make them realise the effort required, and would be a much better deterrent than the threat of a fine.

[davieG]

The problem is not that more people litter, it is that more people expect someone else to clear it up.

When was the last time any of you picked up litter you found?

I pick up litter near in and around my front garden, as do most people. I have also on several occasions picked up a load of beer cans etc from local parks of a Sunday morning, because I am sure there was litter left behind by my friends and I when we were teenagers, and because waiting a few days for the council to send someone seemed churlish when hundreds of people including kids were going to see the park that day,

On the education note, getting schoolkids out cleaning up litter once a month would soon make them realise the effort required, and would be a much better deterrent than the threat of a fine.

I believe that was tried but was stooped as it was considered 'dangerous' probably due to the potential of finding an infected needle.

[Bellend Sebastian]

I pick it up when I go walking or dogging at places where the odd bit of rubbish is spoiling otherwise pristine environments. If someone throws litter on the ground in front of me I have been known to be angered enough to pick it up there and then, but obviously not when they're looking as I'm sufficiently middle class to have a distaste for confrontation, particularly with the tattooed masses.

I quite understand that it would be desirable to achieve the goal of people taking responsibility for such things themselves through education, it's just that I don't think it's very realistic and for too many people their self interest and laziness will inevitably outweigh any thought of doing the right thing, which is probably going to be at odds to what they consider best for themselves anyway. Enforcement is visible and sends out a stronger message which I think people are more likely to respond to. I'd be all for the punishment involving a couple of Saturday mornings spent litter picking rather than a fine - I think that would focus minds somewhat

[Alexikokopops]

I pick it up when I go walking or dogging at places where the odd bit of rubbish is spoiling otherwise pristine environments. If someone throws litter on the ground in front of me I have been known to be angered enough to pick it up there and then, but obviously not when they're looking as I'm sufficiently middle class to have a distaste for confrontation, particularly with the tattooed masses.

I experienced the most middle class evening of my life on Saturday night. It involved sitting in the grounds of Osbourne House in East Cowes watching the last night of the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra proms, drinking wine, and eating a picnic that involved asparagus wrapped in Parma Ham.

[davieG]

I experienced the most middle class evening of my life on Saturday night. It involved sitting in the grounds of Osbourne House in East Cowes watching the last night of the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra proms, drinking wine, and eating a picnic that involved asparagus wrapped in Parma Ham.

I hope you didn't drop your litter on the Osbourne House Lawns.

[Jon the Hat]

I believe that was tried but was stooped as it was considered 'dangerous' probably due to the potential of finding an infected needle.

So it teaches kids to be careful as well! Brilliant. But yes I can certainly believe that.