Midfield

[RizLCFC]

Just to add I had my doubts about this 4-5-1 formation but now I feel we look more attacking and create more in this setup as opposed to the standard 4-4-2 formation. Also, the players we currently have fit in to this formation quite well without having to drop King or any other regular starters or changing into a diamond midfield. With Yakubu and Samba signed and if Berner stays then we will hopefully become more competent at the back as well as finishing off more chances up front!

[marbelladave]

Andy king isnt a midfielder at all - he's very ineffective, he cant pass or tackle... but he does score goals and thats why he needs to be a striker

Half true at least.

In the central third King is really just a 'bits and pieces' player, going forward he moves the ball on quickly and that's about all, he doesn't drive forward in posession, he doesn't 'do' dead balls, play in his team mates and rarely creates chances.

Defensively his astute positional play closes down the opposition and denies them the angles to play the killer ball but he does not tackle that much and his physical presence is often negligible.

What King does have is the uncanny ability to get things done in both penalty areas, we can all see his goalscoring ability, he is easily our most acomplised finisher, but there is more to his game than that.

He is actually a very fine defender in his own box, strong in the air and generally very effective on the ground, his last second tackles saved us many a goal, particularly last season.

However this is where I really beg to differ.

For me King has played much too far forward this season, we miss out on his defensive work in our box and he really does not contribute to our attacking play that much. What he does is arrive late, from deep and score goals, playing him well forward actually makes it more difficult for him to score as he is much easier to pick up for opposition defenders and the ball often reaches him when he is already well forward and flat footed, rather than arriving at pace.

So for me he and Abe should play deep, covering the back 4 and doing all the defensive work leaving Wellens (or perhaps Gallagher) further forward to play the creative roll without too much in the way of defensive responsibilities. King can still get forward and get his goals but we get a lot more from him defensively.

[Thracian]

Just a few things I've been thinking about recently. Wellens really is having a great season. He's looked a class act every time I've seen him, and between Sky, the streams and getting to games I've seen quite a lot of us. Should be captain and player of the season for me.

Secondly is, King's also having a great season, but have the goals dried up a little? He's still making the runs, but I think teams have clocked on to him a bit. He still has the talent to nab the odd goal, but he's not imposed himself on games as much for me. I certainly don't want to see him dumped unceremoniously out of the team, but he's played a lot of minutes recently - would he benefit from a bit of a rest? In terms of his fitness and in letting us mix the team up a bit, make teams have to do that bit more homework on us.

Which leads me into my last point. It's always good to have a few formations, and we've been pretty consistent (and undoubtedly pretty successful), with 4-5-1. I think it'd be good to go 4-4-2 or something else at some point in the coming weeks, and if Yakubu is coming in, we've got the opportunity once he's acclimatised. I'm inclined to think Dyer will probably lose his place to Yakubu, with Vassell reverting to the wing, but I reckon Vassell and Yakubu could be an interesting partnership to have a go with as well. The question then is, who do you remove from midfield? We could stick Abe out wide again but he didn't look too comfortable there and I think he's quite essential in this team.

I actually think you'd probably have to drop King. In the 4-5-1, he is the supporting attacker, the goalpoacher while Vassell leads the line, so to me it's natural to replace that kind of player with a striker when moving to 4-4-2.

I would have no intention of marginalising King. I think such a move could benefit his and the teams long term form. Thoughts?

Yeah let's drop Kingy, why not?

With at least 21 games left, Kingy's top scorer at our club with three times as many goals as Wellens and Abe put together. He's also had more shots (47) than Wellens and Abe put together (39). The only statistic Wellens wins on is assists (7) to King's 4 but even then King has four times as many as Abe's 1. Last year King had 10 goals to Wellens' 1.

I might also add that we've conceded stacks more goals this season than we ever did when King was in front of the backline and despite our sterling performance against Manchester City there were times when they were llowed to carve right through us like butter and could well have scored five or six, as we could.

Kingy's problem is also one of his strengths. No-one ever notices him until he's slit your throat. It's just imagination that King's scoring touch has dried up. Yes, he's being marked more tightly - why's that rather than Wellens or Abe? - but he's still finding decent chances in most every game.

He hit the post against Doncaster when he'd usually score, had a couple more great scoring chances against Manchester City and it's been the same most other weeks. All that's happened is he's had a run of missing which all strikers have - not a run of creating nothing.

Abe is all action and I like him but he doesn't do much with the ball and, despite having a damned good shot, he doesn't often get into positions to use it. Defensively he's good at times and loose at others the same as Wellens who's had a super season in many ways but still makes quite important mistakes that aren't always noticed or acknowledged.

Finally King is still not always given credit for what he does off and around the ball. But being involved in 14 of our goals this season and 11 last (from central midfield where Wellens plays) surely says it all - that he was by far our most effective midfielder. No contest whatsoever.

But as always it is busy, bruising players who catch the eye - the Tiatto types if you like. That's right the bloke who went through a whole season with us without being on the winning side for all his competitiveness.

Here am i saying all this yet I like Abe and Wellens. They are like a pair of gold nuggets compared with some of the shit we've

smeared over that part of he ground in the past.

But let no-one be kidded. We need goals to win promotion and Sven might well have increased our chances on that score. But shedding King's contribution would be ridiculous and as for cries that Wellens ought to be captain why's that?

We've not only climbed the table since Sven arrived but also since Kingy became captain. And all that responsibility has not stopped him scoring or making goals either.

There's one other thing. Sven has recognised we had no significant aerial threat from corners. He's brought in La Bamba and with any luck Yakubu to follow. Kingy makes three and the best potential decoy as well.

It's not quite MON but it's getting that way and we sure won't take 250 corners to make an impression in future when Kingy was the only potential winner of a header. Neither Abe nor Wellens pose any significant presence inside either box though Abe is showing signs that he might score eventually. Kingy's useful in both places.

http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/Goalscorers/0,,10794~201010274~7,00.html

[Captain...]

This might sound crazy but I'd like to see this- 352

Weale

Bamba-Hobbs-berner/mee

Naughton abe king wellens dyer/gally

Vassell yakubu

Don't know if it would leave us to exposed but it's the only way I can get everyone in the team that I think should start? Should terrorise teams I think?

I thought something similar when we had Cunningham and Davies I would have Vitor in there instead of Berner/Mee, Berner is not comfortable in a central defensive role and Mee

No way should Gally be on the left in that formation you need someone with pace and willing to track back to make that work.

It has also crossed my mind that King should probably be the one to lose out of the midfield 3, I think it would do him no harm to be dropped from time to time, but he is, hopefully, the future of this club and we should be looking to build formations round him, not excluding him.

[Leicester_Loyal]

Can't drop Abe, Wellens or King. Leave it as it is for now or work around those 3. They have been vital in helping us win games IMO.

[Kitchandro]

Yeah let's drop Kingy, why not?

With at least 21 games left, Kingy's top scorer at our club with three times as many goals as Wellens and Abe put together. He's also had more shots (47) than Wellens and Abe put together (39). The only statistic Wellens wins on is assists (7) to King's 4 but even then King has four times as many as Abe's 1. Last year King had 10 goals to Wellens' 1.

I might also add that we've conceded stacks more goals this season than we ever did when King was in front of the backline and despite our sterling performance against Manchester City there were times when they were llowed to carve right through us like butter and could well have scored five or six, as we could.

Kingy's problem is also one of his strengths. No-one ever notices him until he's slit your throat. It's just imagination that King's scoring touch has dried up. Yes, he's being marked more tightly - why's that rather than Wellens or Abe? - but he's still finding decent chances in most every game.

He hit the post against Doncaster when he'd usually score, had a couple more great scoring chances against Manchester City and it's been the same most other weeks. All that's happened is he's had a run of missing which all strikers have - not a run of creating nothing.

Abe is all action and I like him but he doesn't do much with the ball and, despite having a damned good shot, he doesn't often get into positions to use it. Defensively he's good at times and loose at others the same as Wellens who's had a super season in many ways but still makes quite important mistakes that aren't always noticed or acknowledged.

Finally King is still not always given credit for what he does off and around the ball. But being involved in 14 of our goals this season and 11 last (from central midfield where Wellens plays) surely says it all - that he was by far our most effective midfielder. No contest whatsoever.

But as always it is busy, bruising players who catch the eye - the Tiatto types if you like. That's right the bloke who went through a whole season with us without being on the winning side for all his competitiveness.

Here am i saying all this yet I like Abe and Wellens. They are like a pair of gold nuggets compared with some of the shit we've

smeared over that part of he ground in the past.

But let no-one be kidded. We need goals to win promotion and Sven might well have increased our chances on that score. But shedding King's contribution would be ridiculous and as for cries that Wellens ought to be captain why's that?

We've not only climbed the table since Sven arrived but also since Kingy became captain. And all that responsibility has not stopped him scoring or making goals either.

There's one other thing. Sven has recognised we had no significant aerial threat from corners. He's brought in La Bamba and with any luck Yakubu to follow. Kingy makes three and the best potential decoy as well.

It's not quite MON but it's getting that way and we sure won't take 250 corners to make an impression in future when Kingy was the only potential winner of a header. Neither Abe nor Wellens pose any significant presence inside either box though Abe is showing signs that he might score eventually. Kingy's useful in both places.

http://www.football-league.co.uk/page/Goalscorers/0,,10794~201010274~7,00.html

Whilst I agree with almost all of this post I also think Wellens should be captain. He's one of the few who shouts and one of the few who gets stuck in and shows urgency when we're playing crap. King is a fantastic player but he goes missing when we are playing poorly. I don't mean he stops trying, but he's often a passenger and has little effect.

He scored a cracking equaliser against Leeds but it has to be said we were bloody awful for most of the game and had barely 5 minutes where we showed some spirit. In other away games we have rolled over without a fight. Against Doncaster, we were playing shite in the first half but Wellens was about the only one who looked like he wanted to change things and he took the game by the scruff of the neck. For me, this is the example the rest of the players should be following.

I'm not having a go at King at all but I do think Wellens is more suited to being captain.

[Finnegan]

I hate teams without wide players, I don't like the idea of playing four midfielders boxed in to some sort of central diamond.

The only way I could imagine us keeping the unit of Abe, Wellens and King (which I think is the highlight of our side) AND having two forwards is a 5 3 2 / 3 5 2. In Naughton we certainly have a player who could satisfy that role but we don't have a left sided wing-back nor do we have cover on the right if Naughton were injured or banned.

Oh. And I like Richie Wellens but he's a headless chicken - headless chickens should not be captains. Last thing you need is your captain running around diving or diving into tackles like a mad-man. He's a scrapper, a terrier and he's fantastic at it but I like that we have a captain who's a little bit calmer and a little bit more methodical.

Besides, captaincy isn't entirely about how the player plays on the pitch. It's about how he is in the dressing room and on the training ground and what he's saying to his team mates, not to mention how they feel about him. These are all things we can only speculate at and if Sven thinks King is the best choice then I don't see that we have any evidence to argue the contrary.

[muzzieizzet]

I'd like to see a 4-1-3-2....

Weale

Naughton Bamba Hobbs Berner

Abe

Gallagher King/Wellens Dyer

Vassell Yakubu

or stick the diamond in an push king into a more attacking position, definately can see vassell and the yak working well together, we just need to do what everton forgot to do....feed the yak.

Loving Abe at the moment, seems he has settled in just about and his rocket on sunday was delicious.

[marbelladave]

I find all this 'love' for our midfield quite perplexing, we're bottom half of the Championship, often complete bobbins away from home yet Wellens, Abe and King appear to be beyond criticism.

Defensively they are wide open, coverage of our back 4 is negligible, quite dangerous with our use of attacking fullbacks yet in possession they are often quite slow switching play forward, neither King nor Abe like to run at and commit defenders and neither create much for their attacking colleagues. Wellens is, almost by default, the playmaker but he gives the ball away as often as he plays in a forward.

I have mentioned many times that a big part of our forwards failure to score more regularly is the lack of clear chances created by our midfield, our slow passing play is the main reason for this, by the time our forwards are played in they are already well forward and well marked by a set defence. It is no coincidence that our top goalscorer is King, a player who scores most of his goals arriving late and at pace.

I do feel that our midfield needs a big shakeup, maybe positional, maybe personel. We do not have the kind of wide midfield players required to play 4-4-2 so a 3 man midfield remains our best option for the moment but I remain unconvinced that it can do the job we need if we are going for a playoff spot.

[Bryn]

I'll take this opportunity to reiterate that I'm not some mindless phone-in moron that wants King axed - I just think, mulling things over tactically, that if Yakubu's brought in to start alongside Vassell, King's place could potentially come under scrutiny, and if we're gonna go flat 4-4-2 I think Wellens and Abe are the two who would provide the most solid midfield unit. Any rest King gets would be with a view to putting him firmly back into the team, I still think 4-5-1 is our best formation. I think this is fair consideration - we haven't been that good in all our games, and if we want to up the win ratio we need diversity and flexibility in our tactics.

I agree with Finnegan, I don't like teams without wide players, particularly at home against the brick walls some teams in this divison throw up. The 5-3-2 could work, but we'd definitely need a top left back signing, and even with that I'd think it a bit vulnerable, so often these days do you need two men on the wing to double up on an opposing threat. Plus, you run the risk that the wingbacks get forced back into their own half by an enterprising side pushing their own wide players forward, leaving us with no width at all. The back three would need some coaching to get the positioning and coordination right, you certainly couldn't just throw them into it.

[dpjfox]

id be reluctant to tamper with the midfield players/formation, however they play every game we need to get a good replacement to rest them occassionally (ie not oakley) i think ultimately sge would prefe 442 but has stated that u need 2 physically strong central midfielders, which we dont have at present

[marbelladave]

I'll take this opportunity to reiterate that I'm not some mindless phone-in moron that wants King axed - I just think, mulling things over tactically, that if Yakubu's brought in to start alongside Vassell, King's place could potentially come under scrutiny, and if we're gonna go flat 4-4-2 I think Wellens and Abe are the two who would provide the most solid midfield unit. Any rest King gets would be with a view to putting him firmly back into the team, I still think 4-5-1 is our best formation. I think this is fair consideration - we haven't been that good in all our games, and if we want to up the win ratio we need diversity and flexibility in our tactics.

I agree with Finnegan, I don't like teams without wide players, particularly at home against the brick walls some teams in this divison throw up. The 5-3-2 could work, but we'd definitely need a top left back signing, and even with that I'd think it a bit vulnerable, so often these days do you need two men on the wing to double up on an opposing threat. Plus, you run the risk that the wingbacks get forced back into their own half by an enterprising side pushing their own wide players forward, leaving us with no width at all. The back three would need some coaching to get the positioning and coordination right, you certainly couldn't just throw them into it.

id be reluctant to tamper with the midfield players/formation, however they play every game we need to get a good replacement to rest them occassionally (ie not oakley) i think ultimately sge would prefe 442 but has stated that u need 2 physically strong central midfielders, which we dont have at present

Playing 4-4-2.

To be really efective in this formation you need all or at least some of the following:-

Two powerful, commanding central midfielders,

Two wide midfield players capable of getting up and down their flank, tucking in and helping the central players and providing a forward threat.

A second striker who naturally drops off and links up play.

We really do not have any of the kind of players mentioned above so when we play 4-4-2 we do so with two men wide and two men up, this leaves our central midfield pairing isolated and easily over run, something we have seen many times over the last couple of years.

This is why we play a three man midfield, simple really...

and, given our personel we have no option!

[cc_star]

Are Yak and Vassell not the same sort of player?

an in form Yak has the potential to do everything Vassell does well for us but do it better, he's much stronger, when he's fit he's faster and apart from the poor current season he's had mainly from Everton's bench he score more goals

Perhaps we'll just play exactly have we been doing but simply replace Vassell with Yakubu - Personally I think we need to do something drastically different away from home, but perhaps with Samba/Mee we'll be steadier at the back

[okie fox]

I don't see how we can drop our 10-goals scorer out of the side. It's not like he sits in the box waiting for opportunities -- he works very hard, does a lot of closing down and even gets back as last man on occasions. Even when he doesn't score, the opposition still has to keep track of him. His only weakness is he doesn't fly into tackles. By the way, if Gallagher were moved to attacking midfielder, he and his marker would be occupying the space that King runs into!

We need a tall, physical defensive midfielder as a different option to Abe. In some away games, we get bullied too much.

[marbelladave]

I don't see how we can drop our 10-goals scorer out of the side. It's not like he sits in the box waiting for opportunities -- he works very hard, does a lot of closing down and even gets back as last man on occasions. Even when he doesn't score, the opposition still has to keep track of him. His only weakness is he doesn't fly into tackles. By the way, if Gallagher were moved to attacking midfielder, he and his marker would be occupying the space that King runs into!

We need a tall, physical defensive midfielder as a different option to Abe. In some away games, we get bullied too much.

Or, if you prefer, Gallagher will be tying up the defender who would otherwise pick up King...

King scores most of his goals by arriving late, he can do that even more effectively from deep positions. There is no downside to playing King deep, he is not a conventional attacking midfielder, what part he does play in our buildup is simple linking play, he is not 'creative' in the sense that he rarely makes chances for others and does not deliver a stream of balls into the box.

Playing deep he can help out defensively, something we clearly miss and still get forward for his attempts at goal, classic win - win situation.

I believe Bamba can play in midfield, how about King and Bamba sitting in front of a back 4 of Naughton - Hobbs - Mee - Berner?

[Starkwell]

This might sound crazy but I'd like to see this- 352

Weale

Bamba-Hobbs-berner/mee

Naughton abe king wellens dyer/gally

Vassell yakubu

Don't know if it would leave us to exposed but it's the only way I can get everyone in the team that I think should start? Should terrorise teams I think?

It sounds crazy - because it is...

The current line up is working and we know sven prefers 442, so i can't see why he would switch to a formation that is neither his preferred formation nor the formation that seems to be doing the job.

[shailen]

Our mid is the best in the league! End of