The "Unlimited Budget" Myth

[B52]

Free transfers are definitely cheaper. A lot of the cost in a 'normal' transfer comes from covering the value of the remaining contract in place. That's why a player with 4 years on his contract might sell for 25m, but if only 1 year remains he'd sell for 8m.

Believe me, if free transfer players took home what would otherwise have gone to the selling club, every player would run out their contract and take home a whackin great wad of cash!

Their sign-on fee is probably about what the transfer fee would have been in the last year of their contract or a little less.

1. A players value is always balanced. The total cost for a player to a club is always the same independant of wages, transfer fees, sign on fees or other cost related to the transfer. The total cost have more to do with the lenght of the contract and how much other clubs want a certain player.

2. You have a lot of players doing that. They stick to their contract and don't want to be sold. They rather stay on the bench or be loaned out. It may have more to do with this than we know. You have also the clubs that let their loyal servant go and get a bonus at the end of their career.

3. If Rooney put his signature on a 4 year contract if would be a very, very high sign-on fee.

[Guest Col city fan]

And for that, we as fans should give Sven and the Raksiaksorns all the time that they need to make up their mind. You just come across as one of those silly teenagers who're acting up because things don't go your way.

You know the meaning of the word "patience"?

Again... A typical personal attack which is neither called for nor neccessary

Not surprised of course, this site is full of posters like this

And the ones that don't get booted are typically the ones that are part of the in-gang... Again, no surprise

[bmt]

We don't have an unlimited budget.

What was meant by the term "unlimited budget" was that Sven has been handed a number (believed to be around £10 million) if he decides he really needs more then the Thai's will back him within reason, that number isn't the be all and end all.

We do not have £100 million that Sven can blow to create some Championship Galácticos.

There's no point coming straight out of the gate and spending big, because we'll get taken to the cleaners. We aren't missing out on anyone already being signed, Sven (no doubt with some help from Tord) will have carefully drawn up his list and will know exactly what he wants.

Cool your jets.

Wasn't the term actually "no limit", which although similar I think has a completely different meaning. All I think it meant was that there was no number given to Sven on how much he could spend, he would be backed with any sensible deals as the aim is to get to the prem in this year.

I think what was said was taken out of context and 'unlimited' was media misinterpretation.

[21st Century Fox]

Wasn't the term actually "no limit", which although similar I think has a completely different meaning. All I think it meant was that there was no number given to Sven on how much he could spend, he would be backed with any sensible deals as the aim is to get to the prem in this year.

I think what was said was taken out of context and 'unlimited' was media misinterpretation.

Yes, I think alot of it has to do with poor interpretation and media hype. From alot of posts I've seen some people have got it into their heads that we have some bottomless pot of cash and we're out to build a Championship Dream team. I think some people just need to be slightly more realistic.

[Guest Col city fan]

Yes, I think alot of it has to do with poor interpretation and media hype. From alot of posts I've seen some people have got it into their heads that we have some bottomless pot of cash and we're out to build a Championship Dream team. I think some people just need to be slightly more realistic.

I think the point is that nobody except those that matter have the first damn clue how much money we have, what proportion will be used to spend on signings (free or otherwise)

I (like an inpatient teenager) would like to see some players join us who I think are good quality lads, and who, in my opinion, will improve the rather skeletal squad we have already. This will be exciting of course cos we can then all sit on here and fantasise about 'how many goals they are gonna score' or 'who is gonna play on the opening day of the season'

Not really arsed about whether a certain striker fits into a certain random 'system'.. Just wanna see some good players join us!! Is this wrong? Course it aint... Happy days x

[MC Prussian]

Again... A typical personal attack which is neither called for nor neccessary

Not surprised of course, this site is full of posters like this

And the ones that don't get booted are typically the ones that are part of the in-gang... Again, no surprise

I posted a comment trying to explain that rushed actions and decisions is not the way forward.

You then proceed by posting gibberish and denouncing my input.

In fact, the rush was a major reason why the club went downhill in the years following the Administration fears and the subsequent relegation from the Premier League in 2004.

Also including the signing crazes in between 2004-2008.

We were owned by a businessman who was in for the quick buck, buying for cheap and selling for more than that.

Costs were kept relatively low in order to raise the profits. It was a smart decision by the then-owner, but it backfired in terms of footballing success - there was hardly ever a team on the pitch, it was a collection of has-beens, no-names, exotic dancers and mercenaries.

Don't forget the managerial roundabout - ten, twelve managers in four, five years? Hardly a sign of stability and hardly a sign of a solid basis to work from, is it?

And that, among other reasons, is why the years under Mandaric were frustrating and painful and were the cause why we went down to League One.

The current owners are doing the "right" thing in my eyes, because they're operating on a basis of solid government (as in government of a football club).

Also, in times of financial instability, dishing out the dough is highly speculative and dangerous. Asians are smart businessmen, don't underestimate their thinking.

Your impatience is counter-productive. Maybe there is a reason why you're getting "booted" (as you put it).

There will be signings and they will be good.

[21st Century Fox]

I think the point is that nobody except those that matter have the first damn clue how much money we have, what proportion will be used to spend on signings (free or otherwise)

I (like an inpatient teenager) would like to see some players join us who I think are good quality lads, and who, in my opinion, will improve the rather skeletal squad we have already. This will be exciting of course cos we can then all sit on here and fantasise about 'how many goals they are gonna score' or 'who is gonna play on the opening day of the season'

Not really arsed about whether a certain striker fits into a certain random 'system'.. Just wanna see some good players join us!! Is this wrong? Course it aint... Happy days x

We all want to see some good players brought in, but I don't see the point in pining over a couple of players that have moved to different clubs already. I don't really understand how people think that just because players like King and Chopra have moved on that they've slipped though our fingers. There's a huge amount of attainable players in the championship, the premiership and abroad that are better than those two, Sven will have marked his targets and will be working on bringing them here, we may not hear about it but its happening.

[Guest Col city fan]

I posted a comment trying to explain that rushed actions and decisions is not the way forward.

You then proceed by posting gibberish and denouncing my input.

In fact, the rush was a major reason why the club went

downhill in the years following the Administration fears and the subsequent relegation from the Premier League in 2004.

Also including the signing crazes in between 2004-2008.

We were owned by a businessman who was in for the quick buck, buying for cheap and selling for more than that.

Costs were kept relatively low in order to raise the profits. It was a smart decision by the then-owner, but it backfired in terms of footballing success - there was hardly ever a team on the pitch, it was a collection of has-beens, no-names, exotic dancers and mercenaries.

Don't forget the managerial roundabout - ten, twelve managers in four, five years? Hardly a sign of stability and hardly a sign of a solid basis to work from, is it?

And that, among other reasons, is why the years under Mandaric were frustrating and painful and were the cause why we went down to League One.

The current owners are doing the "right" thing in my eyes, because they're operating on a basis of solid government (as in government of a football club).

Also, in times of financial instability, dishing out the dough

is highly speculative and dangerous. Asians are smart businessmen, don't underestimate their thinking.

Your impatience is counter-productive. Maybe there is a reason why you're getting "booted" (as you put it).

There will be signings and they will be good.

I haven't been 'booted'.. But you and some of your old pals should be when you get offensive (but won't be)

Your second reply is sensible, adult and informative

Get what I'm saying, or am I being obtuse... Hehe

[Guest Col city fan]

We all want to see some good players brought in, but I don't see the point in pining over a couple of players that have moved to different clubs already. I don't really understand how people think that just because players like King and Chopra have moved on that they've slipped though our fingers. There's a huge amount of attainable players in the championship, the premiership and abroad

that are better than those two, Sven will have marked his targets and will be working on bringing them here, we may not hear about it but its happening.

Who's 'pining'.... Bloody hellfire..

Bugger waiting, let's see some action mr svennis...

Fed up of discussing so called 'targets' let's start discussing what's what...

Actually you are quite right what you are saying, or at least I hope you are.. I guess sven knows who he wants and what 'system' he wants em in...

I'm just playing 'devils advocate and getting excited about actually getting some good stuff in

[21st Century Fox]

Who's 'pining'.... Bloody hellfire..

Bugger waiting, let's see some action mr svennis...

Fed up of discussing so called 'targets' let's start discussing what's what...

Actually you are quite right what you are saying, or at least I hope you are.. I guess sven knows who he wants and what 'system' he wants em in...

I'm just playing 'devils advocate and getting excited about actually getting some good stuff in

I'm with you, I want to see the transfers start rolling in but I'd rather we took our time and got it right, rather than have another 'Allen' season. If other clubs were out stripping us transfer wise then I'd start being impatient and panic but there has been little activity all round.

[MC Prussian]

I haven't been 'booted'.. But you and some of your old pals should be when you get offensive (but won't be)

Your second reply is sensible, adult and informative

Get what I'm saying, or am I being obtuse... Hehe

I wish I could say the same about your stuff.

It's about time you come up with the goods instead of posting rubbish replies (with the intent of causing a stir).

But to be honest, I believe you're just another misled victim of the media who were misquoting some of the things Sven or the Thais said in recent weeks.

The media (and the rumour mill, too) have already implemented an unhealthy amount of high expectations.

And you, with your apparent dislike of Sven, have already fallen for it.

Imagine this (and this is my theory): Replace the alleged unlimited funds with, say, "unlimited support", the whole scenario is starting to look entirely different.

Somewhere in the media frenzy, either someone didn't translate the owners' intentions precisely enough or the media were just doing a sloppy job.

There certainly is unlimited support by the Raksiaksorns, but not an unlimited transfer kitty (which would be foolish, anyway).

You can't buy instant success, but you can plan long-lasting prosperity.

[Guest Col city fan]

I'm with you, I want to see the transfers start rolling in but I'd rather we took our time and got it right, rather than have another 'Allen' season. If other clubs were out stripping us transfer wise then I'd start being impatient and panic but there has been little activity all round.

You are absolutely right mate... Waiting and makIng the right choices is the best way and I genuinely feel that the club is in safe hands, both managerially and administratively...

That's not Sven bashing is it? Exactly the opposite..

I wait in eager anticipation to see who we get and how Sven intends to mount our assault on the league.

You make very sensible posts 21st century.. But so do I..

Its all opinion at the end of the day anyway...

So far Sven has done a decent job at the club... He's a good guy and has great connections... I remain disappointed that he has not been able to nurture Jack Hobbs as I think he will become a superb centre back.. Time will tell on that one.

I remain very optimistic about the future

[Guest Col city fan]

It's about time you come up with the goods instead of posting rubbish replies (with the intent of causing a stir).

I'd be rude to you back but you'd probably block me! Lmao... I don't know how to block you!!!

Thanks for the advice I'll try to 'come up with the goods' in

the future... Hahahaha

Ps ... My dislike of Sven? Look at my post above...

The trouble with you and your contemporaries is that you seek to ridicule, usually with personal abuse, ANY criticism, perceived or otherwise of Sven, the club and any plans we may have.. It's actually like attempting to brainwash readers and posters on this site with a certain view and instantly quoshing any dissent.. It's a good job there are some that won't allow you to do this... Lcfcstu being a good example.

I'm with Sven and the future but I don't need YOU to tell me to be..

[MC Prussian]

I'd be rude to you back but you'd probably block me! Lmao... I don't know how to block you!!!

Thanks for the advice I'll try to 'come up with the goods' in

the future... Hahahaha

Ps ... My dislike of Sven? Look at my post above...

The trouble with you and your contemporaries is that you seek to ridicule, usually with personal abuse, ANY criticism, perceived or otherwise of Sven, the club and any plans we may have.. It's actually like attempting to brainwash readers and posters on this site with a certain view and instantly quoshing any dissent.. It's a good job there are some that won't allow you to do this... Lcfcstu being a good example.

I'm with Sven and the future but I don't need YOU to tell me to be..

Don't get so ****ing online touchy.

a) I'm not here to "brainwash" people and if I was such a Forum Nazi like you want everybody else to believe, the moderating team could've banned you a long time ago - aren't we a nice bunch, after all?

b) The majority of your posts are filled with non-thread-related issues, instead it is you who simply retreats to a simple "blame game" - and your last reply is proof (again): I'm trying to post something sensible and all you do is reply to everything but that bit!!

And what does your criticism of Sven, the club or our future plans constitute of again? I haven't seen anything remotely substantial to back up your claims up to this date.

Because all you do is coming up with the odd knee-jerk reaction here and there (and I'm not the only one with that opinion):

Remember this thread?

[Jimbo]

1. A players value is always balanced. The total cost for a player to a club is always the same independant of wages, transfer fees, sign on fees or other cost related to the transfer. The total cost have more to do with the lenght of the contract and how much other clubs want a certain player.

2. You have a lot of players doing that. They stick to their contract and don't want to be sold. They rather stay on the bench or be loaned out. It may have more to do with this than we know. You have also the clubs that let their loyal servant go and get a bonus at the end of their career.

3. If Rooney put his signature on a 4 year contract if would be a very, very high sign-on fee.

But the signing on fee has nothing to do with the transfer fee. I'm sorry but I'm struggling to see what your point is here. Are you trying to say that if a player is worth 10 million quid, then if he is out of contract then a club would pay the player 10 million quid?

The signing on fee, in effect, is nothing more than a sweetener, a back hander if you like, for the player to sign. As well as money, players are now getting houses and cars as well as such fees.

The signing on fee will depend on, as you say, how many clubs want the player, which will pay the most. If Chopra (I'll use him as he's been mentioned already) was on a free, then I'd doubt he'd cost anyone 1 million. Just for examples sake I'd probably guess that his siging on fee was 500k. Plus wages, say 15k a week. add all that up, excluding bonuses, then if he stays the length of his contract, he's cost Ipswich around 2 million. No tranfer fee to pay and he's cost 1 million, so how is signing a player on a free transfer costing as much as paying a transfer fee?

[Guest Col city fan]

Don't get so ****ing online touchy.

a) I'm not here to "brainwash" people and if I was such a Forum Nazi like you want everybody else to believe, the moderating team could've banned you a long time ago - aren't we a nice bunch, after all?

b) The majority of your posts are filled with non-thread-

related issues, instead it is you who simply retreats to a simple "blame game" - and your last reply is proof (again): I'm trying to post something sensible and all you do is reply to everything but that bit!!

And what does your criticism of Sven, the club or our future plans constitute of again? I haven't seen anything remotely substantial to back up your claims up to this date.

Because all you do is coming up with the odd knee-jerk reaction here and there (and I'm not the only one with that opinion):

Remember this thread?

That thread is months old... My opinion has changed.. Is this allowed or do I need to ask your permission?

Regarding your view on my not making any substantive points... Try another of my previous threads called 'what I'd do'... A list of things I would like to see Sven do as

manager.. Pretty concrete set of substantive ideas for the season to come...

Try changing someone else's mind to concede to yours.. In the meantime I'll continue to have my own and sometimes post them on here... Hope that's ok with you

[MPH]

sven , if he is the professional you lot think he is , should have had his list of players he wanted for this season by at least march early april finalised with extras if needed . fact ( if he is professional ) . please dont show your ignorance by saying players are on leave as a player doesnt sort these things its agents that do that and they are on overtime . no movement here but other clubs showing the way . people slagging chopra etc maybe is ok , maybe ! but with absolutely no movement here , chopra would have at least been a start (better than some sven has brought here ).see svens system mentioned , wtf is that ?he has had quite a few systems lacking results last season . strange comment lacking description . in sven we HAVE to trust , but my trust is wearing a little thinner by the passing day . ok, he can sign enough players in a day that would do a job for us but when has that ever happened ? this so called championship winning side is nowhere in sight yet and thats another fact ! july the 1st is preseason training start day , business should be done for a few players by then and all done by the time we leave for sweden . TIME WILL TELL ! interesting few weeks ahead me thinks .

you are the one showing your ignorance.

We have exactly the same situation as last season. Sven is trying to sign prem quality players and not many of them are intrested in dropping down a division. Those were Sven's own words last season.

[Winchester]

1. A players value is always balanced. The total cost for a player to a club is always the same independant of wages, transfer fees, sign on fees or other cost related to the transfer. The total cost have more to do with the lenght of the contract and how much other clubs want a certain player.

2. You have a lot of players doing that. They stick to their contract and don't want to be sold. They rather stay on the bench or be loaned out. It may have more to do with this than we know. You have also the clubs that let their loyal servant go and get a bonus at the end of their career.

3. If Rooney put his signature on a 4 year contract if would be a very, very high sign-on fee.

No way does it always equal the same. Take a look at the lower league clubs where budgets are much tighter - quite a few of them will be held to buying only out of contract players.

A lot of things can artificially inflate the value of a players - the primary one being the selling club's position. Most clubs valued Charlie Adam at 4m. A signing on bonus I'm sure he wouldn't have hesitated to take from united or liverpool were it up to him, but blackpool valued him higher and refused anything less than 16m. Had they come down to say 10m united probably would have bought him. But I doubt charlie would have demanded a 10m signing bonus were he out of contract. And I doubt charlie would be forcing a massive signing on bonus of 10m or 16m if he was out of contract just because that's what blackpool valued him at.

Look at Bebe at united. Signed by previous club for free transfer, 5 weeks later united buy him for 7.4m.

Also, supply and demand affect the price significantly. if it's the last day of transfer market and you're desperate for a certain type of player, guess what happens to the price. (see Andy Carroll). No chance of Carroll getting a 35m bonus if he was out of contract at that time.

What the buyer is willing to pay, the seller willing to accept, and what the player demands are all vastly different sums. The final price is somewhere in the middle, but taking out one of the factors is a great way to save money.

[Babylon]

Hope we make some kind of signing this week coming, my Derby supporting manager is already starting to rib me saying they have made three to four signings and are after Nathan Tyson

Out of interest, anyone know when preseason training starts, i'm taking a rough guess at three weeks time?

It take longer to sign players who are in demand, or from clubs who are unsure whether they want to sell the player or not. It's not rocket science to work out that's why there is a "delay" in signings (if there even is one.) Sven will have a list of who he wants and we will probably be negotiating with several clubs/players at the same time. If we get the first target then you forget the other negotiations, if the first target goes elsewhere then you have already done some leg work for the other signings and can move quickly.

Back to your mate, would you want ANY of the signings Derby have made so far?

[Babylon]

Again... A typical personal attack which is neither called for nor neccessary

Not surprised of course, this site is full of posters like this

And the ones that don't get booted are typically the ones that are part of the in-gang... Again, no surprise

I haven't been 'booted'.. But you and some of your old pals should be when you get offensive (but won't be)

Your second reply is sensible, adult and informative

Get what I'm saying, or am I being obtuse... Hehe

The only people who get "booted" are ones that consistently break forum rules... and even some of them don't get banned. Nobody had EVER been banned because they had an opinion (contrary to the belief of some posters on here).

Nothing in his post would be deemed by any moderator on this board as enough to warrant a warning let alone anything else. If you think someone suggesting you are acting like a teenager if worthy of such action then it's a good job you aren't a mod as there would be nobody left on here.

[B52]

But the signing on fee has nothing to do with the transfer fee. I'm sorry but I'm struggling to see what your point is here. Are you trying to say that if a player is worth 10 million quid, then if he is out of contract then a club would pay the player 10 million quid?

The signing on fee, in effect, is nothing more than a sweetener, a back hander if you like, for the player to sign. As well as money, players are now getting houses and cars as well as such fees.

The signing on fee will depend on, as you say, how many clubs want the player, which will pay the most. If Chopra (I'll use him as he's been mentioned already) was on a free, then I'd doubt he'd cost anyone 1 million. Just for examples sake I'd probably guess that his siging on fee was 500k. Plus wages, say 15k a week. add all that up, excluding bonuses, then if he stays the length of his contract, he's cost Ipswich around 2 million. No tranfer fee to pay and he's cost 1 million, so how is signing a player on a free transfer costing as much as paying a transfer fee?

This is hard to explain....

If a player is worth 10 million he will cost that amount because if he doesn't cost it some other club would take him instead because he's so cheap.

If the wages goes through the roof or he got a bonus program with clauses, sign-on fee or some dodgy money in a foreign bank account I don't know. There is so many possibilities to pay of a player without showing up on the players official wages that the club needs to defend in media and fans forums......

The Chopra example is useless if you don't know everything about the deal and no one will know so much.

The only thing I know that is that a player cost what the clubs are willing to pay. In your Chopra example we only had to get him 16K a week and he would choose us instead.

[B52]

No way does it always equal the same. Take a look at the lower league clubs where budgets are much tighter - quite a few of them will be held to buying only out of contract players.

A lot of things can artificially inflate the value of a players - the primary one being the selling club's position. Most clubs valued Charlie Adam at 4m. A signing on bonus I'm sure he wouldn't have hesitated to take from united or liverpool were it up to him, but blackpool valued him higher and refused anything less than 16m. Had they come down to say 10m united probably would have bought him. But I doubt charlie would have demanded a 10m signing bonus were he out of contract. And I doubt charlie would be forcing a massive signing on bonus of 10m or 16m if he was out of contract just because that's what blackpool valued him at.

Look at Bebe at united. Signed by previous club for free transfer, 5 weeks later united buy him for 7.4m.

Also, supply and demand affect the price significantly. if it's the last day of transfer market and you're desperate for a certain type of player, guess what happens to the price. (see Andy Carroll). No chance of Carroll getting a 35m bonus if he was out of contract at that time.

What the buyer is willing to pay, the seller willing to accept, and what the player demands are all vastly different sums. The final price is somewhere in the middle, but taking out one of the factors is a great way to save money.

Why lower league clubs buy out of contract players have more to do with that no one wants them.

The annual total cost of a player is the annual total cost. That don't change in a capitalistic society. If a club could get quality for less than zero shouldn't everybody do that?

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

I'd be rude to you back but you'd probably block me! Lmao... I don't know how to block you!!!

Thanks for the advice I'll try to 'come up with the goods' in

the future... Hahahaha

Ps ... My dislike of Sven? Look at my post above...

The trouble with you and your contemporaries is that you seek to ridicule, usually with personal abuse, ANY criticism, perceived or otherwise of Sven, the club and any plans we may have.. It's actually like attempting to brainwash readers and posters on this site with a certain view and instantly quoshing any dissent.. It's a good job there are some that won't allow you to do this... Lcfcstu being a good example.

I'm with Sven and the future but I don't need YOU to tell me to be..

Yet another touchy poster, eh? You don't belong on this site, if you can't take any flack. Try and get over it, because it's always going to fly around. I get it quite often, and dish it out too, but I don't complain about the fact, that I receive it , Don't be a petulant cry baby, feeling your being victimised.

[MC Prussian]

That thread is months old... My opinion has changed.. Is this allowed or do I need to ask your permission?

Regarding your view on my not making any substantive points... Try another of my previous threads called 'what I'd do'... A list of things I would like to see Sven do as

manager.. Pretty concrete set of substantive ideas for the season to come...

Try changing someone else's mind to concede to yours.. In the meantime I'll continue to have my own and sometimes post them on here... Hope that's ok with you

Your old thread is merely six weeks old - hardly "months".

And do you change your opinion this often - eight, nine times per annum? Would you call this "solid"?

[RyanB89]

1. A players value is always balanced. The total cost for a player to a club is always the same independant of wages, transfer fees, sign on fees or other cost related to the transfer. The total cost have more to do with the lenght of the contract and how much other clubs want a certain player.

2. You have a lot of players doing that. They stick to their contract and don't want to be sold. They rather stay on the bench or be loaned out. It may have more to do with this than we know. You have also the clubs that let their loyal servant go and get a bonus at the end of their career.

3. If Rooney put his signature on a 4 year contract if would be a very, very high sign-on fee.

1. No it isnt

2. Players that dont sign new contracts generally dont want to be at the club anymore not because they can sell themselves to another club for their market value (because they cannot)

3. Rooneys sign on fee would probaly be more than £2m but no where near his value of £30m.