the_fosse Posted 22 June 2011 Posted 22 June 2011 After seeing England’s under 21’s crash out of the European Championships at the weekend, I was waiting for an article such as this. Content is pretty accurate I’d say in relation to the heart of English players these days and can’t really argue with the fact that the money involved in England now is making club football preference. A point that will continue to rumble on until our national team finds success……….so this point will rumble on for an awfully long time! Article below: http://sportales.com/soccer/england-ruined-by-england/
ozleicester Posted 22 June 2011 Posted 22 June 2011 To be honest, i dont think so. Some things to keep in mind... Many many countries do not make the finals of major championships. Just a couple of decades ago, England routinely missed out on Euro's and World Cup's. The Prem league is a great league, therefore to play in it will improve you as a a player. Only 1 Team can win the Euro or WC. We have never (excluding 66) done anything substantial internationally. Club football has ALWAYS been more important the country (sadly) I see its pretty much like winning the league...only one team can do it and you cant expect to do it every year (even if you might hope)
Dan Posted 22 June 2011 Posted 22 June 2011 Problems with England/The Premier; - Too focused on brands, rather than actual clubs/teams. - On obscenely high wages. - High wages even from a young age nowadays, a lot of players are sorted for life by the time they're 23, and I mean a high life too. - Too ignorant in production of youngsters, teach too many athletes to be footballers, we lack major technical ability nowadays for me, it's too much about pace and no end product. - Too ignorant of other countries' football when they play us. - Lack of passion, it's become a generic phrase but it's true, how can you not sing the national anthem? It makes absolutely zero sense. - The standard hitting the shit, I'm not being funny but we're relying on Jay Bothroyd at times - it's fvcking embarrassing, he's Scotland standard. Sure I can think of more too.
Dickie Greenleaf Posted 22 June 2011 Posted 22 June 2011 Blame the FA, the closure of lilleshall etc. How is the top flight of a country's domestic system specifically to blame for its national failings. This topic would not come up if Leicester return to being an established Premier league club
Fox92 Posted 22 June 2011 Posted 22 June 2011 Not sure if you have the same point as me which always seems to be with the youth products not being given a chance. The youth players don't seem to be given a chance. I think thats were the Natiional failings lie. Take a look at the European Cup final, Barcelona's best goalkeeper is Spanish, their best defender is Spanish, their best midfielder is Spanish and alright Messi is Argentinian but Villa is a top Spanish striker. On the other hand, look at Manchester United. Their best goalkeeper is Dutch (ok, now he has gone like), their best defender is Serbian, their best midfielder is from Portugal, and ok, Rooney is English but their top goalscorer last season was Bulgarian. Some of our teams, ecpsecially the 'top' teams, would rather look abroad than look through their youth system. Tom Cleverley in my opinion could make the Man United first team in place of Scholes, but again Sir Alex has been linked with players such as Wesley Sneider. It does make my angry that some youth talent get released without being given a chance, Scott Sinclair wasn't given a fair crack at Chelsea and was consequently loaned out before getting sold. How many players have Manchester United realeased without the players actually playing more than a douzen games? Players like Ebanks-Blake and even our own Richie Wellens who had to eventually leave. The clubs are interested in instant sucess, such as Chelsea. Instead of teaching their youth to become technical players instead of athletes. High wages are also a factor, players are sorted by the time they are mid 20's -- look at the cars drove by Andy King and Kyle Naughton for example.
Corky Posted 22 June 2011 Posted 22 June 2011 They play a part but let's be honest here, why would the Premier League, a league full of players from all over the world, be overly bothered how England fare?
Kent Posted 22 June 2011 Posted 22 June 2011 Having the best league in the world brings with it these kind of downfalls. We'll have to put up with it unless we want something like the Bundesliga.
Yojoe36 Posted 22 June 2011 Posted 22 June 2011 I don't think the prem is ruining it. Man United are, as they are a franchise NOT a football club
Fosse Boy Posted 22 June 2011 Posted 22 June 2011 Having the best league in the world brings with it these kind of downfalls. We'll have to put up with it unless we want something like the Bundesliga. Richest doesn't mean best. In terms of standard it arguably is but it's far from the most competitive or entertaining.
The Year Of The Fox Posted 22 June 2011 Posted 22 June 2011 The premier league are, as do sky, who I suppose go hand in hand with the PL
Dickie Greenleaf Posted 23 June 2011 Posted 23 June 2011 Richest doesn't mean best. In terms of standard it arguably is but it's far from the most competitive or entertaining. Why is it the most watched league around the world then?
lcfc"weasel" Posted 23 June 2011 Posted 23 June 2011 Having the best league in the world brings with it these kind of downfalls. We'll have to put up with it unless we want something like the Bundesliga. I'd rather watch Bundesliga football every week than any English league.
Durnerz Posted 23 June 2011 Posted 23 June 2011 We as a country do crave international success but in the mindset of the players at the top four clubs and even as far down as 8th-9th place they are focused on european club football be it Europa league or Champions League. Its there for all to see when players like Lampard, Gerrard and co bust both bollocks in the European Competitions but treat England matches as a 'one-off'. Positive now to see the inclusion of the likes of Andy Carroll and Darren Bent to the England ranks but with no disrespect they will never be the calibre of what the Spanish or the Germans have nor will we unless the mindset is changed, european competition after all is where the money is and sadly that seems to be the greatest lure to a premiership footballer.
evs_the_fox Posted 24 June 2011 Posted 24 June 2011 To be honest, i dont think so. Some things to keep in mind... 1. Many many countries do not make the finals of major championships. 2. Just a couple of decades ago, England routinely missed out on Euro's and World Cup's. 3. The Prem league is a great league, therefore to play in it will improve you as a a player. 4. Only 1 Team can win the Euro or WC. 5. We have never (excluding 66) done anything substantial internationally. 6. Club football has ALWAYS been more important the country (sadly) – I see its pretty much like winning the league...only one team can do it and you cant expect to do it every year (even if you might hope) 1. Quite right, and generally they're shit at football. 2. That's not true. Pre-Premier League, we qualified for World Cups in 90, 86 and 82 and the Euros in 92, 88 and 80. We only failed to qualify in 84, hardly routine though. I'm only going back a couple of decades as that's what you stated. 3. The PL is a great league but to the detriment of the national side. A 'Success. NOW!' culture exists resulting in far more foreign players plying their trade here than anywhere else. 4. Only one team can win a competition, true. However, I would have thought most rational England supporters wouldn't just accept winning as success though. Progression from previous tournaments would be a start. A feeling of an overall plan regarding the future of the national side would be another. 5. 3rd in 68 Euros, Semi's in 90 WC and 96 Euro's is something of a success, especially if you consider the points you made in numbers 1 and 4. 6. I'm not sure this is true either but will happily hear some examples of this. Generally I disagree with your point of the PL not being accountable. While you're right in saying you can't expect to win it every year, I don't think that's true of England fans expectations anyway. It's the abject manner in which they've gone out of recent tournaments which get's to fans, especially when the same players look entirely different for their clubs. I don't believe it's only the PL's fault though nor should they be made sole scapegoats but the current system is a flawed one in terms of the national side.
evs_the_fox Posted 24 June 2011 Posted 24 June 2011 Blame the FA, the closure of lilleshall etc. How is the top flight of a country's domestic system specifically to blame for its national failings. This topic would not come up if Leicester return to being an established Premier league club You're seriously asking that?
Dickie Greenleaf Posted 24 June 2011 Posted 24 June 2011 I said specifically. And please explain how having less foreigners in the premier league would improve the quality of English players?
evs_the_fox Posted 24 June 2011 Posted 24 June 2011 They play a part but let's be honest here, why would the Premier League, a league full of players from all over the world, be overly bothered how England fare? Did you understand the question? It has nothing to do with the players, it's how the PL is run, marketed, televised and generally monopolising the English game.
ozleicester Posted 24 June 2011 Posted 24 June 2011 1. Quite right, and generally they're shit at football. Ummm yes fair point but then, as a country our results suggest...so are we 2. That's not true. Pre-Premier League, we qualified for World Cups in 90, 86 and 82 and the Euros in 92, 88 and 80. We only failed to qualify in 84, hardly routine though. I'm only going back a couple of decades as that's what you stated. .... sorry im older than i thought... go back to the 70s and check out our international results 3. The PL is a great league but to the detriment of the national side. A 'Success. NOW!' culture exists resulting in far more foreign players plying their trade here than anywhere else. I think the players are better now, its not the premier leagues fault they dont put club ahead of country 4. Only one team can win a competition, true. However, I would have thought most rational England supporters wouldn't just accept winning as success though. Progression from previous tournaments would be a start. A feeling of an overall plan regarding the future of the national side would be another. Numerous semi and quarter final appearances would suggest we are successful then? 5. 3rd in 68 Euros, Semi's in 90 WC and 96 Euro's is something of a success, especially if you consider the points you made in numbers 1 and 4....see above 6. I'm not sure this is true either but will happily hear some examples of this. this is confirmed by you comments about the league... as supporters..ask anyone what they would rather.. their club win the league.. or england win the WC.. im confident the majority will say.. they want their club... this is NOT the prem leagues fault...and also refers back to your comments about "success now". Ask yourself... wold you rather England wins the Euro's... or Leicester to be promoted? Generally I disagree with your point of the PL not being accountable. While you're right in saying you can't expect to win it every year, I don't think that's true of England fans expectations anyway. It's the abject manner in which they've gone out of recent tournaments which get's to fans, especially when the same players look entirely different for their clubs. I don't believe it's only the PL's fault though nor should they be made sole scapegoats but the current system is a flawed one in terms of the national side.
BlueSi13 Posted 24 June 2011 Posted 24 June 2011 People are forgetting that before Spain suddenly hit this demographic goldmine they had won a total of 1 European Cups which was also won in Spain in 1964. England's underachievement has been grotesque for sure. But we are and will always be a top 10 football nation, however we have always failed to just crack that top 2/3/4 at a certain time which has resulted in failure. Our problems are many, and the Premier League is an EASY target, our greatest issues are at a much more basic level, i.e when a child is first taught to kick a ball by his first P.E teacher/coach. The problem now for the senior team is that our style of play is in transition. We are trying to play a new brand of football but its goes against what the players were taught as kids, this means we end up playing neither and the quality teams eat us alive. Hopefully this should improve within a couple of generations due to better coaching at the lowest level. Also its hard to truly say our U21's were a failure, in the two previous tournaments we made the semi-finals and the final, against much tougher opposition. This year Germany, Italy, France, Portugal and The Netherlands were knocked out in qualifying. Are those nations panicking?
purpleronnie Posted 24 June 2011 Posted 24 June 2011 It would be nice if the premier league academies werent obsessed with filling the places up with young talent from abroad. I understand they want to get top players but maybe there should be a limit on how many places should be made available to young english talent. These feeder academies set up abroad to find talent in other countires and then bringing them over cant help the national side. There is a flip side to that arguement though and its to do with coaching, we need better coaches because its clear that young kids from other countries are more skillfull than ours if they weren't then there would be no need to bring so much talent from elsewhere. Kind of damned if you do damned if you don't situation.
BlueSi13 Posted 24 June 2011 Posted 24 June 2011 Ozleicester sums up English fans mentality right now...we are either the best team in the world...or the shittest. England are not "crap" at football...did you know we have inferior records against a whopping FOUR nations...Brazil, Italy..and oddly Uruguay and Romania. Not bad overall i think. Problem is, as my colleagues in Germany know probably better than us...England don't do knock out tournaments, every game is seen as a final for us and that is wrong.
FoxyPV Posted 24 June 2011 Posted 24 June 2011 Surely the FA would address the number of top level (coaching badges) coaches at underage level if they were that concerned about the supposed demise of the national team? Was it not revealed after Spain won the WC that they 10 times more coaches with top badges than England? As much as I hate to say it, England are a pretty decent international team who tend to get beaten by better teams in tournaments (or by similar teams on penalties). That's not particularly shabby.
accessory Posted 24 June 2011 Posted 24 June 2011 They play a part but let's be honest here, why would the Premier League, a league full of players from all over the world, be overly bothered how England fare? Indeed, and don't forget that most Premier club owners and managers are from overseas too..
Fox92 Posted 24 June 2011 Posted 24 June 2011 It would be nice if the premier league academies werent obsessed with filling the places up with young talent from abroad. I understand they want to get top players but maybe there should be a limit on how many places should be made available to young english talent. These feeder academies set up abroad to find talent in other countires and then bringing them over cant help the national side. There is a flip side to that arguement though and its to do with coaching, we need better coaches because its clear that young kids from other countries are more skillfull than ours if they weren't then there would be no need to bring so much talent from elsewhere. Kind of damned if you do damned if you don't situation. I agree with that.
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