Our strike force

[liamsm]

Does anybody else think we still have not got enough fire power to be really succesful?

[The Doctor]

Just ignore what Thraician will say about needing to score hundreds of goals with youth team wingers to have any chance of being successful.

So long as well defend well we don't need many per game and with Beckford, King, Nugent, Mills and Danns (amongst others) at the club I'd be confident of us scoring in most games.

[Matt]

I think even if we signed Messi, Rooney, (Name any top striker) they'd struggle at Leicester.

I don't know quite know what happens when good strikers come to Leicester, they do well before they come, they do well after they leave but here they just seem jinxed.

So does that point fingers at the service?

[Thracian]

Just ignore what Thraician will say about needing to score hundreds of goals with youth team wingers to have any chance of being successful.

So long as well defend well we don't need many per game and with Beckford, King, Nugent, Mills and Danns (amongst others) at the club I'd be confident of us scoring in most games.

Have we got any youth team wingers? Or any wingers at all that are considered useable?

I think even if we signed Messi, Rooney, (Name any top striker) they'd struggle at Leicester.

I don't know quite know what happens when good strikers come to Leicester, they do well before they come, they do well after they leave but here they just seem jinxed.

So does that point fingers at the service?

Not according to LargeAl.

[The Doctor]

Have we got any youth team wingers? Or any wingers at all that are considered useable?

I've no idea, and the only first team "winger" we have is dyer, so no.

[Guest Col city fan]

I think even if we signed Messi, Rooney, (Name any top striker) they'd struggle at Leicester.

I don't know quite know what happens when good strikers come to Leicester, they do well before they come, they do well after they leave but here they just seem jinxed.

So does that point fingers at the service?

Yes Matt it does... The service and the formation... Too slow, too little width... This is as clear as crystal to me

[Thracian]

I've no idea, and the only first team "winger" we have is dyer, so no.

Well, Sven's been here nearly a full season. If he's not happy with Dyer - and Dyer quite often makes something happen for all his limitations - then he's had plenty of time to get someone else. But like Pearson and so many others before him, he doesn't seem to believe in them.

And yet there is no way he'll get the best out of Beckford/Nugent/Schlupp without them.

And no way people like King or Johnson will have the passing options without them either.

Well, Pearson went and I can soon see Sven heading the same way. Defenders need to be spread out and run at.

[marko]

Well, Sven's been here nearly two seasons. If here's not happy with Dyer - and dyer quite often makes something happen for all his limitations - then he's had plenty of time to get someone else. But like Pearson and so many others before him, he doesn't seem to believe in them.

And yet there is no way he'll get the best out of Beckford/Nugent/Schlupp without them.

And no way people like King or Thomas will have the passing options without them either.

Well, Pearson went and I can soon see Sven heading the same way. Defenders need to be spread out and run at.

Really?! He's not even been here a year yet! Let alone two seasons. Some of your comments are ridiculous.

Who do you suggest we replace him with? Dowie? Coleman? Yourself?

[Number 6]

That team second in the Prem make use of wingers a lot don't they?

[kingfox]

The way Peltier gets forward and his lethal headers, he will be our 20 goal a season man.

[The Doctor]

Well, Sven's been here nearly two seasons. If here's not happy with Dyer - and dyer quite often makes something happen for all his limitations - then he's had plenty of time to get someone else. But like Pearson and so many others before him, he doesn't seem to believe in them.

And yet there is no way he'll get the best out of Beckford/Nugent/Schlupp without them.

And no way people like King or Thomas will have the passing options without them either.

Well, Pearson went and I can soon see Sven heading the same way. Defenders need to be spread out and run at.

The old fashioned chalk on the boots, turn and run, winger tends to be a thing of the past, they don't contribute enough nowadays - instead you have the likes of Vassell - the striker that doesn't score many, but instead moves into the channels and tries to create the room up-front, or the likes of Gallagher who drift inside on occasion to help the central midfield and try to get involved.

Defenders don't need to be run at, that is an option of attacking but you can get just as good a result by passing the ball around and working the space - making the defenders tire themselves moving about without tiring yourself.

You talk about a lack of fluidity in our play but some of the arguments you present, you seem to want a return to the old 4-4-2, down the wing, ball swung in, big striker knocks it down for little striker/midfielder - if that's the case then you're always going to be disappointed, that just doesn't work effectively now.

Finally, who's Thomas?

[Guest Col city fan]

The old fashioned chalk on the boots, turn and run, winger tends to be a thing of the past, they don't contribute enough nowadays - instead you have the likes of Vassell - the striker that doesn't score many, but instead moves into the channels and tries to create the room up-front, or the likes of Gallagher who drift inside on occasion to help the central midfield and try to get involved

Defenders don't need to be run at, that is an option of attacking but you can get just as good a result by passing the ball around and working the space - making the defenders tire themselves moving about without tiring yourself.

You talk about a lack of fluidity in our play but some of the arguments you present, you seem to want a return to the old 4-4-2, down the wing, ball swung in, big striker knocks it down for little striker/midfielder - if that's the case then you're always going to be disappointed, that just doesn't work effectively now.

Finally, who's Thomas?

Why don't 'old fashioned wingers' work?

What are you basing this on?

Young, Nani, Wright Phillips, Cristiano, Mata, Kebe, ......

There's loads that get the ball, dribble with pace and deliver a cross. Many cut inside to score... These type of players ( and yes I cited some top players in the list) are crucial to how their respective clubs play.

It's just about finding them... IMO I would always play Lloyd Dyer. It's a shame that City have let some good ones go too.. Gradel and Ash Chambers being two good examples of players who can play this way and who have good potential for real improvement

I don't getcha?

[The Doctor]

Why don't 'old fashioned wingers' work?

What are you basing this on?

Young, Nani, Wright Phillips, Cristiano, Mata, Kebe, ......

There's loads that get the ball, dribble with pace and deliver a cross. Many cut inside to score... These type of players ( and yes I cited some top players in the list) are crucial to how their respective clubs play.

It's just about finding them... IMO I would always play Lloyd Dyer. It's a shame that City have let some good ones go too.. Gradel and Ash Chambers being two good examples of players who can play this way and who have good potential for real improvement

I don't getcha?

Wright-Phillips is utter turd.

Look, wingers can be useful, but they can't just play the old fashioned way, hugging the touch line and lobbing the ball in whenever possible, anymore, they need to do more, to track back and help the defence, come inwards to support the centre midfielders etc.

Dyer is of no use tracking back and his delivery is piss awful so often.

[ithuriel]

Why all the gloom, they played well and sure, the team can still be tinkered with but this is Cardiff away we are talking about.

Compared to where we we're a month ago there has been major improvement.

[Guest Col city fan]

Wright-Phillips is utter turd.

Look, wingers can be useful, but they can't just play the old fashioned way, hugging the touch line and lobbing the ball in whenever possible, anymore, they need to do more, to track back and help the defence, come inwards to support

the centre midfielders etc.

Dyer is of no use tracking back and his delivery is piss awful so often.

Nonsense... Wright Phillips is not and never has been 'utter turd'.. Again what are you basing this on?

And if a team has full backs who play as full backs ie defensively, this gives the wingers scope for attacking, for getting forward and putting the opposition on the back foot.

???

[dannythefox]

I think when Nugents back him and Beckford will start to shine, shame he got injured he was just started to get going.

[Bugg]

Why don't 'old fashioned wingers' work?

What are you basing this on?

Young, Nani, Wright Phillips, Cristiano, Mata, Kebe, ......

There's loads that get the ball, dribble with pace and deliver a cross. Many cut inside to score... These type of players ( and yes I cited some top players in the list) are crucial to how their respective clubs play.

It's just about finding them... IMO I would always play Lloyd Dyer. It's a shame that City have let some good ones go too.. Gradel and Ash Chambers being two good examples of players who can play this way and who have good potential for real improvement

I don't getcha?

These 4 players you have just mentioned are not old fashioned wingers.

[Guest Col city fan]

These 4 players you have just mentioned are not old fashioned wingers.

Go on then 'bugg' hit me with your acumen...

[Bugg]

Go on then 'bugg' hit me with your acumen...

Well, Young is a wide player who cuts inside and looks for a shot/ through ball, the same applies for Nani and Ronaldo. Almost like an alternative striker but not an "old fashioned winger" as you stated they were.

Mata is more of an Attacking Central midfielder.

[Guest Col city fan]

Well, Young is a wide player who cuts inside and looks for a shot/ through ball, the same applies for Nani and Ronaldo. Almost like an alternative striker but not an "old fashioned winger" as you stated they were.

Mata is more of an Attacking Central midfielder.

Bugg read what I wrote! I said 'many cut inside to score' as did 'old fashioned wingers' of the past. John Robertson, Georgie Best... Et al.. All could get the ball to the byline, deliver a good cross AND cut inside and score

These players still exist, as they always have done... Are you saying that Cristiano Ronaldo can't beat a full back and cross a ball? Are you really implying this?

[Bugg]

Bugg read what I wrote! I said 'many cut inside to score' as did 'old fashioned wingers' of the past. John Robertson, Georgie Best... Et al.. All could get the ball to the byline, deliver a good cross AND cut inside and score

These players still exist, as they always have done... Are you saying that Cristiano Ronaldo can't beat a full back and cross a ball? Are you really implying this?

To be fair, I was skim reading and missed the "cut in a score" bit

I'll read through your posts better next time.

[Guest Col city fan]

To be fair, I was skim reading and missed the "cut in a score" bit

I'll read through your posts better next time.

No worries mate

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Just ignore what Thraician will say about needing to score hundreds of goals with youth team wingers to have any chance of being successful.

So long as well defend well we don't need many per game and with Beckford, King, Nugent, Mills and Danns (amongst others) at the club I'd be confident of us scoring in most games.

I do have to agree with you on this.

[Thracian]

The old fashioned chalk on the boots, turn and run, winger tends to be a thing of the past, they don't contribute enough nowadays - instead you have the likes of Vassell - the striker that doesn't score many, but instead moves into the channels and tries to create the room up-front, or the likes of Gallagher who drift inside on occasion to help the central midfield and try to get involved.

Defenders don't need to be run at, that is an option of attacking but you can get just as good a result by passing the ball around and working the space - making the defenders tire themselves moving about without tiring yourself.

You talk about a lack of fluidity in our play but some of the arguments you present, you seem to want a return to the old 4-4-2, down the wing, ball swung in, big striker knocks it down for little striker/midfielder - if that's the case then you're always going to be disappointed, that just doesn't work effectively now.

The idea of passing through and around defences goes back to the theories of a bloke called Charles Hughes who single handedly tried to change the game from one which was universally entertaining to an often boring no risk science.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Hughes_(football_coach)

We were even told to study he bloke as part of my first coaching course but I ended up throwing his book on the fire.

Not that I'm against passing the ball through a defence. But first you need to do it at pace and with support to make it effective. But you also need imagination by way of decoy runners, stepovers, and people with the ability to take folk on as a means of variation.

We don't even get to first base on any of this. We don't have fast support, we don't have selfless or decoy runners (apart from King on occasions) and we don't have individuals who can be relied on to beat people.

The problem with "triangle" football is that, while it's theoretically safe (though Wellens and Konchelsky tried to dispell that today), it's also predictable and relatively easily countered.

Watch how often a ball is fed quite deep into a defence to an approching runner coming "off" the defence.

The initial "feed" takes out three players. If the receiver turns it's a risk, but one which might easily create havoc. But the Hughes philosophy is to pass the ball back again, putting the three by-passed defenders back into play. Safe but wacko! Yet we do it all the time.

It's theoretical claptrap. When United were at their best they had players making as much space as possible for Ronaldo so he could run at them and turn every well organised defence inside out.

Nowadays defenders are so rarely exposed or tested in this way although Spurs try to do it for Bale and he wreaks havoc too. Walcott can potentially do the same and all of them just as effectively as the traditional wingers of the past which every team had.

But the space doesn't always have to be created for dribblers. It can be created for precise crossers of the ball like Beckham or Guppy (in MON's time here).

The problem with Vassell is that he neither scores nor creates enough and Gallagher's the same. Take away Gallagher's set-piece contributions and you have very little left because he doesn't have the pace, either with the delivery of his passes or to get by people. And I can't see that his defending or closing down is any good either.

Four-four-two, 4-2-4, even 3-4-3 or 3-5-2? It really depends on the players you have and making them as effective as they can be. But before you decide the system you need to put the competents together - goals, assists, pace, support and passing reliability.

Look at our team today. Goals potential was there from Beckford, King, Vassell (0.25) Mills (0.25) and Bamba (0.25). That adds up to a total goal threat of 2.75 for the entire team. It's simply not enough. You need a minimum of 6 and preferably 7..

Think about MON's team: Walsh, Elliott, Guppy, Cottee, Heskey, Marshall, Izzett.... goal threat 7.

Take all the great sides and you'll find it pretty much the same. We're way short.

[gazfox9]

We're missing Nugent massively. Him and Beckford will run riot in this division. The problem with Vassell is he now seems to drift and not know whether he's a striker or a winger. Beckford and Nugent are two out and out forwards, who I think will link up superbly. If it clicks then they could compliment each other superbly.