Capitalism

[Rincewind]

Capitalism will always be here in some form or another. My brother the brainy money/busines orienated one of the family once explained it this way:

If person A had an invention of Whatyoucallits and made 100 person B would offer me 10p each which after production and material cost would give him a nice profit Person. B would then sell them to peerson C for 20p each making 100% profit. Person C would keep the Whatyoucallits for a while but because of a change in circumstances decides they are out dated so dismantles them and sells them to person A.

Well something like that. There will always be those able and willing to exploit for gain those that are unable or unwilling to do the exploiting themselves.

[davieG]

You can take pretty much any communist example and see a country that ultimately falls into disarray, low productivity, low standard of living and the like.

Capitalism has improved the standard of living hugely over the past two centuries, starting with the agricultural revolution, industrial revolution, through to modern day.

The best case study to prove the point is East and West Germany.

Two countries hidden behind an iron curtain, in the same part of the world, with shared cultural experiences, work ethics and history. It was always believed that the West was slightly ahead of East for quality of life and standard of living, but not by much. When the wall (and the iron curtain) finally fell, the truth was exposed and the East was a dilapidated country trailing in West Germany's wake. The standard of living was poor and the industrial productive base was decades behind West Germany.

Capitalism succeeds as the best system because of creative destruction, with unproductive or old businesses/workers that fail to adapt to new upstarts, going to the wall. It is this that ensures technological progress and increased productivity, resulting in increased standards of living. Unfortunately, it is this which upsets, because it is harsh, putting those who fail to adapt into hardship. However, without creative destruction, you do not have progress.

It also ignores the long term dangers to the human race with it's profligate use of resources and it's destruction of the environment to name but two if allowed to operate unchecked.

[Zingari]

it looks as though the capitalist world maybe heading for a bit of a crisis over the next few years

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15519699

[Guest Bilo]

Communism is a superb idea in theory but if it has ever worked in practice, I'd like to see the example.

Cuba has achieved many great things, such as having by far the most successful health and education systems in Latin America, but is far from democratic or productive. It's frankly miraculous that it retains Communism twenty years after the Soviet Union on which it was so dependent, it could be argued that the near total absence of democracy and a government more than willing to come down hard on dissent are reasons. This is the best advert for Communism right now yet it is still very, very flawed in spite of the admirable successes.

You want to see Communism gone bad? Take a look at North Korea. An absolute monarchy in all but name with leaders chosen by virtue of genes with Kim Jong Un, son of current leader Kim Jong Il, set to become the third generation of Kims to lead the beleaguered country. Absolutely no pretence of democracy, death camps, next to no productivity or even links with the outside world for the North Koreans. The place is run as a fiefdom with Kim Jong Il the closest thing the North Koreans see as a god.

Breadandcheese's comparison between East and West Germany is even more damning if you do the same with North and South Korea. The North is a basket case, whereas the South is incredibly productive and successful with a well educated populace. Samsung, Kia, Hyundai and LG are household names around the world that hail from a country that has the same history, people, language and largely culture as communism gone wrong up north. GDP per capita in the North is currently $1800, in the South it's $30,000 so Communism hasn't enriched the life of any North Korean who doesn't have the surname Kim.

I'm of the left, but Communism is a failed ideology that looks set to die completely within my lifetime.

[James.]

I think the answer, as always, lies somewhere in between the two extremes. As davieG said capitalism unchecked can create vast inequality, which can not always be justified as "survival of the fittest".

Responsible capitalism with far more focus on the ultimate distribution of resources and a corporate world that has a moral and potentially legal obligation to focus on their wider social responsibility would help but it's easier to say than to actually put into practice.

Realistically as a practical example I think microfinance schemes when done responsibly can have a huge impact on poverty while embracing the benefits of capitalism.

[Finnegan]

Any excuse:

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Hope this helps.

List of "you have two cows" definitions (The definitions have, of course, no scientific value and may reflect certain points of view.)

Anarchism:

You have two cows. You keep the cows and steal your neighbour's bull. You ignore the government. Meanwhile, your neighbours try to take the cows and kill you. The cows decide you have no right to do anything with their milk and leave to form their own society.

Aristocracy:

You have two cows. You sell both and buy one really big cow - with a pedigree.

Army -- United States:

You have two cows. You don't ask. They don't tell.

Artist -- Visual:

You have two cows. You suspend them in formaldehyde in glass display boxes. In London.

Barter:

You have two cows; you want chickens; you set out to find another farmer who has chickens and wants a cow.

Baathism:

You have two cows. They compete in blaming everything on the Jews until the one with the higher milk revenues grows a mustache and starts gassing you. When it attacks your neighbor, the world just pushes it back to your feedlot and says killing it would violate your sovereignty.

Bureaucracy:

You have two cows. At first the government regulates what you can feed them and when you can milk them. After that it takes both, shoots one, milks the other and pours the milk down the drain. Then it requires you to fill out forms accounting for the missing cows.

Bureaucracy -- United States:

You have two cows. One has BSE. You don't bother to check if they have BSE, lest you find out, and then declare there is no problem from BSE in your country.

Bureaucracy -- British:

You have two cows. One has BSE. You get a vet to give the other one the "all clear", and then declare there is no problem from BSE in your country.

Bureaucracy -- European Union:

You have two cows. The EU declares them to be fruit in order to conform to a rare Belgian custom of making Cow Jam (jam being required to have at least 45% fruit).

Bureaucracy -- Indian:

You have two cows. But since these cows are holy cows, you cannot tell them what to do, or milk them, or do anything useful with them. The cows however, have no such barriers. The emerging liberal democracy requires one to fill out 37 triplicate forms before killing anything, and cows cannot write. Thus the cows do not slaughter you, you do not slaughter the cows, and the pacifist monks are satisfied.

Bureaucracy -- United States:

You have two cows. The government takes both, loses one while moving it to a farm in Puerto Rico and forgets to milk the other. You are then paid to not milk cows.

Canadaism:

You have two cows. Vous avez deux vaches.

Capitalism:

You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.

Cartesian Dualism:

You have two cows. Therefore you are.

Catholicism:

You have two cows. You feel guilty for having cows and go to confession; your parish priest tells you that having cows is not in and of itself a sin in the eyes of God, but if you are feeling guilty about it, perhaps you should free the cows and say ten Hail Marys.

Centralism:

You have two cows. They are in the middle of the field with 100,000,000 other cows.

Communism:

You have two cows. Your neighbours help you take care of them, and you all share the milk.

Conservativism:

You have two cows. You freeze the milk, embalm the cows and charge people to look at them..

Counterculture:

Wow, dude, there's like... these two cows, man. You got to have some of this milk.

Deconstructionism:

You have two cows, or is it that two cows have you?

Democracy #1:

You have two cows. They outvote you 2-1 to ban all meat and dairy products.

Democracy #2:

You have two cows. Your neighbours decide who gets the milk.

Despotism -- Modern:

You have two cows. The government steals your cows and shoots you, but in interests of pleasing the global community, name you as a "Militant Rebel Insurgent", call their government an "Enlightened Centralised Executive", and ask for UN peacekeeping troops to come and separate the radical separationist cow-owners from normal people.

Dictatorship:

You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you.

Dyslexia:

You have two woks.

Environmentalism #1:

You have two cows. Government regulations require your cows to wear protective headgear so they do not allow bacteria to die and illegalise the killing of parasites by aggravated cows.

Environmentalism #2:

You have two cows. The government bans you from milking or killing them.

Existentialism:

You have two cows. You declare "Hell is the cows". (See Jean Paul Sartre.)

Fascism #1:

You have two cows. The government seizes both and sells you the milk. You join the underground and start a campaign of sabotage.

Fascism #2:

You have two cows. The government takes both, hires you to take care of them, and sells you the milk.

Feminism:

You have two cows. They get married and adopt a veal calf.

Feudalism:

You have two cows. Your lord takes some of the milk.

Frisbeetarianism:

You have two cows. One of them flies up on the roof and gets stuck. You smoke a joint and hope the government provides cow ladders.

Fundamentalism #1:

You have two cows. The government kills you for owning cows, confiscates your cows, and then kills everyone who suggests that the government should be killed for owning cows.

Fundamentalism #2:

You have two cows. The Bible does not mention cows, and the government confiscates them because they do not exist.

Idealism:

You have two cows. You get married and your partner milks them.

Industrialism:

You have two cows. You dissect them both, and figure out how to build a milk-factory instead.

Labor Unionisim:

You have two cows. They band together with everyone else's cows to form the Cow People's Union, or CPU. They demand higher wages and shorter working hours. You respond by increasing wages and working hours. As your house burns and your windows are smashed in, you realise that your life depends on these cows, and their happiness is part of your survival. You decide to tell that to God.

Liberalism #1:

You have two cows. You give away one cow and get the government to give you a new cow. Then you give them both away.

Liberalism #2:

You have two cows. You sell both to the rich. The government then taxes the rich one cow and gives it to the poor.

Libertarianism #1:

Go away. What I do with my cows is none of your business.

Libertarianism #2:

You have two cows. One has actually read the constitution, believes in it, and has some really good ideas about government. The cow runs for office, and while most people agree that the cow is the best candidate, nobody except the other cow votes for her because they think it would be "throwing their vote away."

Libertarianism #3:

You have two cows. You let them do what they want.

Marxism/Leninism:

The proletarian cows unite and overthrow the bourgeoisie cow-herds. The egalitarian democratic cow revolutionary state with the cow party as vanguard disintegrates over time. Marx choked on a veggie-burger before he could explain what happens to the use-value, exchange-value and sign-value of bovine leather.

Militarism:

You have two cows. The government takes both cows and presses you into military service.

Nazism:

You have two cows. The government takes both and shoots you.

New Dealism:

You have two cows. The government takes both, shoots one, milks the other, and pours the milk down the sink. The government insists there is a giant storage tank where all the milk goes.

New Zealandism:

You have two sheep.

Nihilism:

There are no cows. There never were. You have a cigarette and a cup of black coffee to ponder the cow-shaped hole in the universe.

Pacifism:

You have two cows. They stampede you.

Perotism:

You have two cows. You aren't allowed to sell the milk to Mexico.

Platonism:

You have a reflection of two perfect cows. Their milk tastes like water. You look for two real cows to milk.

Plutocracism:

You have two cows. Your richer neighbours get to take one of them and the other's milk because they are richer. In rebellion, you become richer and take three of their cows and the fourth's milk. This continues until the cows decide to invent the concept of "Cow-munism", band together, become richer than everyone, and take everything and its milk.

Political Correctness:

You are associated with (the concept of "ownership" is a symbol of the phallocentric, war-mongering, intolerant past) two differently-aged (but no less valuable to society) bovines of non-specified gender.

Poverty:

You don't have any cows.

Protectionism:

You have two cows. You can't buy a bull from another country.

Protestantism:

You have two cows. Your neighbour has none. You feel guilty for being successful. You vote people into office who tax your cows, forcing you to sell one to raise money to pay the tax. The people you voted for then take the tax money and buy a cow and give it to your neighbour. You feel righteous.

Redistributionism:

You have two cows. Everyone should have the same amount of cow. The government takes both cows, cuts them up, and spends more than the cows are worth giving everyone a little piece of cow.

Republicanism:

You have two cows. Your neighbour has none. So what?

Simpsonism:

You have two cows. Mmmm... Cows.

Socialism:

You have two cows. The government takes one of them and gives it to your neighbour.

Socialism -- Bureaucratic:

You have two cows. The government takes them and puts them in a barn with everyone else's cows. They are cared for by ex-chicken farmers. You have to take care of the chickens the government took from the chicken farmers. The government gives you as much milk and eggs as the regulations say you should need.

Socratic Methodism:

How many cows do I have? Why?

Surrealism:

You have two cows. The government paints one green and requires you to take harmonica lessons.

Survivorism:

You have two cows. They get taken to a remote farm and go through different challenges to win the "immunity idol". Then they vote each other off and a "jury" of other cows pick one to win a million dollars. The winner eats the money and dies from internal paper cuts and the loser goes on to make millions from sponsors and ads.

Theocracy -- Iranian style:

You have two cows. All the world believes only one is a dictator and the other is a democrat, but you can't see any difference and badly want to get rid of both.

Theocracy -- Taliban style:

You have two cows. You turn them loose in the Afghan countryside and they both die. You blame the godless American infidels.

Theocracy -- Saudi style:

You have two cows. The government says God has appointed it as the Eternal Guardian of the Two Holy Cows and pockets all the milk revenues. It grants you the choice either to spread the divine message or to suffer decapitation.

Taoism

The cow that can be milked is not the true cow.

(Good thing you have two.)

Totalitarianism:

You have two cows. The government takes them and denies they ever existed. Milk is banned.

United Nationism:

You have two cows. France and Russia veto you from milking them. The United States and Britain veto the cows from milking you. China abstains. (see UN Security Council)

Haa! Brilliant.

[dave the caveman]

The protests are completely absurd given that even someone on JSA in this country is in the richest 20% of the world population. Full time minimum wage puts you in the top 5%. All it takes is for your salary to be average and you are the 1%.

Everybody likes the idea of wealth redistribution until it's their money which is to be taken.

Greed is the ultimate problem and I doubt many of us can honestly deny we're part of it.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

Without Capitalism, the worlds economy would totally collapse. End of.

[Guest Bilo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju3h7yk4Hcg

Why was I expecting something a bit more like this from DANGEROUS TIGER?

[davieG]

Without Capitalism, the worlds economy would totally collapse. End of.

Capitalism left unchecked and uncontrolled the worlds economy would totally collapse

[Finnegan]

The protests are completely absurd given that even someone on JSA in this country is in the richest 20% of the world population. Full time minimum wage puts you in the top 5%. All it takes is for your salary to be average and you are the 1%.

Everybody likes the idea of wealth redistribution until it's their money which is to be taken.

Greed is the ultimate problem and I doubt many of us can honestly deny we're part of it.

I understand your point, genuinely, and for the most part I agree with it.

But using the fact that there are people in worse situations than ourselves to revoke the right of the protesters to be angry at the West's current, global, economic situation is a little bit one-dimensional.

There are literally no two ways about it, the absolute, tiniest, half a percentage minority with far too much power and control have gone and fucked it up for the mass majority. Whether or not we are, ourselves, a further minority within the global populace is moot. You think the EU or the US will be in a position to distribute aid to the most impoverished countries whilst struggling to keep themselves afloat? The shit slides down hill fast.

It's literally one of the most absurd situations imaginable and it baffles me that more people aren't less apathetic and more genuinely outraged; that it's taken this long to have widespread protest is quite surprising, in my opinion.

[Guest Bilo]

Without Capitalism, the worlds economy would totally collapse. End of.

Capitalism left unchecked and uncontrolled the worlds economy would totally collapse

Agree with DavieG.

You need only look at the Great Depression to see what damage boundless capitalism can cause.

[21st Century Fox]

Capitalism wouldn't be such a bitter pill to swallow if we didn't have men like this:

Who are allowed to profit in this country and then live in Monaco to avoid paying tax for the education, medical care etc etc etc needed to keep their work force going

[Rincewind]

JSA top earners? £135 per fortnight. Are you kidding. JSA is a joke. I'd like to see Cameron and his sidekick Clegg live on it.

[Smudge]

The Chinese seem to have taken to it quite well

[Finnegan]

The Chinese seem to have taken to it quite well

Next up: Human Rights!

[dave the caveman]

But using the fact that there are people in worse situations than ourselves to revoke the right of the protesters to be angry at the West's current, global, economic situation is a little bit one-dimensional.

There are literally no two ways about it, the absolute, tiniest, half a percentage minority with far too much power and control have gone and fucked it up for the mass majority.

They really haven't. We had years, decades of growth. Things were always going to slow down. The credit crunch was as much to do with ordinary people borrowing much more than they could afford to repay than it was anything else. Unemployment in this country is as much to do with ordinary people demanding everything to be as cheap as possible than it is anything else. The problems in Greece are largely because ordinary Greek people don't think they should have to pay tax.

I don't see the super rich doing much wrong in any of this. Nobody forces you to buy the things they sell you. To me these protests and the whole 'blame the 1%' culture is just people who are dissapointed with how their lives have turned out and are looking for someone to blame.

[Jon the Hat]

Can anyone explain why they appear to be protesting against St Paul's Cathedral? Two Goddists down and the City completely oblivious.

[Guest MattP]

Can anyone explain why they appear to be protesting against St Paul's Cathedral? Two Goddists down and the City completely oblivious.

No one has any idea, they asked one of them that on sky news and they just mumbled about being welcomed.

They really havnt thought this through.

[Zingari]

Can anyone explain why they appear to be protesting against St Paul's Cathedral? Two Goddists down and the City completely oblivious.

Same here , i can't understand it either

And why does the dean feel the need to resign ?

[21st Century Fox]

Can anyone explain why they appear to be protesting against St Paul's Cathedral? Two Goddists down and the City completely oblivious.

They were pushed back from Paternoster Square at the Stock Exchange so they had to camp in the nearest place to that.

[Finnegan]

The credit crunch was as much to do with ordinary people borrowing much more than they could afford to repay than it was anything else.

Surely you see how retarded an argument that is though? It's just ridiculous scapegoat-ism popularized by our right-wing media. Because it's far easier for the super-rich to point the finger back at those complaining than shoulder a sizeable amount of the responsibility.

You're talking about people with tens of thousands of pounds worth of education and a CV stacked with a lifetime's worth of experience in banking and economics shifting responsibility onto desperate, every-day folk who don't know their ISA from their CCJ. They should have had the experience and the intelligence to project that lending so nonchalantly was going to cause trouble.

The responsibility should be and should always have been with the lender to ensure they were giving to credible folk and not just exploiting the greed and (in worse cases) the desperation of the average Joe.

There is literally not a single excuse or a single justification for shifting the blame in this one.

[21st Century Fox]

They really haven't. We had years, decades of growth. Things were always going to slow down. The credit crunch was as much to do with ordinary people borrowing much more than they could afford to repay than it was anything else. Unemployment in this country is as much to do with ordinary people demanding everything to be as cheap as possible than it is anything else. The problems in Greece are largely because ordinary Greek people don't think they should have to pay tax.

I don't see the super rich doing much wrong in any of this. Nobody forces you to buy the things they sell you. To me these protests and the whole 'blame the 1%' culture is just people who are dissapointed with how their lives have turned out and are looking for someone to blame.

The credit crunch wasn't because people were personally borrowing more than they could afford to it was because people were being allowed to borrow more than they should have been allowed to. Banks started selling off their debts as bundles of loans to the East (China etc) they were making loans easier and easier to get hold of by reducing the criteria needed to gain them and then bundling up good loans with these 'bad' loans so they could sell it on, that would get bundled up and sold on again and again until the bad loans that weren't able to be paid off create massive holes.

That isn't the problem in Greece at all!!!

Greece has been living beyond its means in recent years, and its rising level of debt has placed a huge strain on the country's economy.

The Greek government borrowed heavily and went on something of a spending spree after it adopted the euro.

Public spending soared and public sector wages practically doubled in the past decade.

However, as the money flowed out of the government's coffers, tax income was hit because of widespread tax evasion.

When the global financial downturn hit, Greece was ill-prepared to cope.

This isn't to do with your average Greek citizen. Its not a case of them not wanting to pay taxes, they don't want to have to be paying for the rest of their lives to make up for the mishandling of the country by their government and the corruption of the elite. The average Greek will have to put on hold any hope of a decent education, decent job etc because they'll have to pay through the nose in taxes to make up the deficit.

I don't see the super rich doing much wrong in any of this. Nobody forces you to buy the things they sell you. To me these protests and the whole 'blame the 1%' culture is just people who are dissapointed with how their lives have turned out and are looking for someone to blame.

Do you live in the real world??

[Zingari]

They were pushed back from Paternoster Square at the Stock Exchange so they had to camp in the nearest place to that.

genuine question ;

do the independent police force of the city of London have greater powers than the metropolitan police ?