Grayson Sacked From Leeds

[ScouseFox]

Deserve each other. Bates, Shearer and Leeds United are all cvnts.

[z-layrex]

Deserve each other. Bates, Shearer and Leeds United are all cvnts.

What's wrong with Shearer? (As a person, obviously he's a cack manager)

[ScouseFox]

Everything.

[Leicesterpool]

I know one or two Leeds fans at my college, and I asked them or they would like to see, they said either Neil Warnock or the return of David O'Leary. They don't want Dowie or Bruce.

[Fox92]

What's wrong with Shearer?

He kicked Neil Lennon in the head, told the referee he wouldn't play for England again if he got booked or sent off, and never actually said sorry.

[Pub breath]

Poor decision.

He is a good manager at a club which he is passionate about. He received next to nothing in terms of squad investment and he will invariably be replaced with another Championship homogeneous journeyman manager. Pointless.

That about sums it up for me. Not a great manager and deeply flawed in certain aspects of coaching/management but for the Championship, he's a good manager and I have little doubt that he'll go and show that elsewhere. More importantly, he was a link between the fans and the dark reaches of LUFC that the fans feel very at odds with. He cared about the club probably more deeply than any other serving manager in the league care about the club who's team they manage and I always thought that was some of the reason for us punching above our weight (from a funding point of view). As you say, we will probably just wind up with another half-arsed Championship standard plodder of a manager who doesn't give a monkies about LUFC but would quite like to add that name to his CV.

Bates is a world class bastard who seems intent on destroying us right now. I realise nobody cares about that here but I certainly fear the future once again.

[Mack]

I am sick of Leeds fans moaning about Bates.

Leeds are in a bloody sight better situation now than they were before Bates bailed them out.

If Bates was born in Yorkshire not a word would be said, but because he is a southerner he gets dog's abuse.

To boot Leeds fans seem to think they have some god given right for their club to be in the top half of the Premier League.

Bates needed to balance the books of Leeds somehow. If you want to point a finger of blame look no further than Ridsdale for that, he ran the club into the ground and beyond.

It's ironic that the Manager involved in that debacle.. David O'leary... is actually wanted back by some fans. Surely it was his bad business under the permission of Ridsdale that made the mess in the first place.

I don't blame Bates for tightening the purse strings, I'd do the same.

[Darkon84]

I am sick of Leeds fans moaning about Bates.

Leeds are in a bloody sight better situation now than they were before Bates bailed them out.

If Bates was born in Yorkshire not a word would be said, but because he is a southerner he gets dog's abuse.

To boot Leeds fans seem to think they have some god given right for their club to be in the top half of the Premier League.

Bates needed to balance the books of Leeds somehow. If you want to point a finger of blame look no further than Ridsdale for that, he ran the club into the ground and beyond.

It's ironic that the Manager involved in that debacle.. David O'leary... is actually wanted back by some fans. Surely it was his bad business under the permission of Ridsdale that made the mess in the first place.

I don't blame Bates for tightening the purse strings, I'd do the same.

Sounds like quite a few of our fans

[Pub breath]

I am sick of Leeds fans moaning about Bates.

Leeds are in a bloody sight better situation now than they were before Bates bailed them out.

If Bates was born in Yorkshire not a word would be said, but because he is a southerner he gets dog's abuse.

To boot Leeds fans seem to think they have some god given right for their club to be in the top half of the Premier League.

Bates needed to balance the books of Leeds somehow. If you want to point a finger of blame look no further than Ridsdale for that, he ran the club into the ground and beyond.

It's ironic that the Manager involved in that debacle.. David O'leary... is actually wanted back by some fans. Surely it was his bad business under the permission of Ridsdale that made the mess in the first place.

I don't blame Bates for tightening the purse strings, I'd do the same.

I can only assume you have absolutely no idea about the situation at LUFC then.

Is it not possible that as much as Ken Bates may not have been responsible for the shit that got us into this situation in the first place, he is still doing a far from satisfactory job of navigating us back to where we were before it all started? I really don't see how Ridsdale's failure absolves Bates of any responsibility for our continual inability to challenge for promotion to the Premiership.

This line about Leeds fans and "God given right to be in the Premiership" is one of the most tired and clichéd around. It's a concept that exists only in the minds of fans from other clubs. I've barely come across a single Leeds fan that thinks anything of the sort and actually, what is a "God given right"? I don't think such a thing exists. Yeah, Leeds fans want to get back to the top half of the Premiership because up until Ridsdale, that's where we'd spent the previous 13 years. For a club with a fanbase as big as ours and a recent history like ours, surely that's a fair ambition? Are you suggesting that Leicester fans don't want the same for their club? So where does this "God given right" bollocks actually come from? Any evidence of this phenomenon existing anywhere else other than in your mind?

The deal with Bates is not that he "saved us" or whether or not we should be in the Premiership by now, it's how he treats the fans and how he fails to invest in the team. it's also about the very strong suspicion that he is bleeding money from the club's coffers into his own personal offshore accounts.

Some facts. Leeds have the highest non-parachute payment affected turnover in the league. We turnover £28m a year compared to Leicester's £16m. Just by pure income alone, why should we not expect to be sat at the top end of this table? Since bates has come to Leeds, we have seen around £30m come in from transfers and payments for our abducted youth academy players. We have spent almost none of that. A few hundred grand here and there. You bought KS for £1m, Beckford for £3/4m. Mills for £4/5m (I really don't know the exact figures but I know they were enough). We paid £200k for Andy Lonergan and £500k for Danny Pugh. Can you start to see why we might have an issue.

Well it get's worse. Whilst we have this whopping turnover and all this money coming in from transfers, we are still sat here wondering why the **** we can't buy anyone and why we keep losing our best players (Beckford, Kilkenny, Johsnon, Kasper, Gradel, Delph and now Howson all in the last 2 years). We can't keep them because we won't pay them enough. Ok, so running the club frugally isn't the worst thing to happen but surely it's a false economy when you see the contracts being run down and the players leaving for nowt? Surely the economy is even more false where the only obvious investment coming back into the club from the monster turnover and £30m of transfer fees gained is a £7m redevelopment of THE NEWEST ****ING STAND IN THE GROUND.

Ken Bates will not build us a team. He just will not put OUR money into OUR team but he will build us a hotel and a casino.

You might be sick of hearing about Leeds fans bitterness toward Bates but don't try and lie to me that you would be happy to see this taking place at LCFC? It's fine for you to not want to here it but at least have the wherewithal not to be so ignorant of the facts behind it before forming such a firm opinion whilst you enjoy watching your manager spunk £25m over the last 12 months.....

[Mack]

I can only assume you have absolutely no idea about the situation at LUFC then.

Is it not possible that as much as Ken Bates may not have been responsible for the shit that got us into this situation in the first place, he is still doing a far from satisfactory job of navigating us back to where we were before it all started? I really don't see how Ridsdale's failure absolves Bates of any responsibility for our continual inability to challenge for promotion to the Premiership.

This line about Leeds fans and "God given right to be in the Premiership" is one of the most tired and clichéd around. It's a concept that exists only in the minds of fans from other clubs. I've barely come across a single Leeds fan that thinks anything of the sort and actually, what is a "God given right"? I don't think such a thing exists. Yeah, Leeds fans want to get back to the top half of the Premiership because up until Ridsdale, that's where we'd spent the previous 13 years. For a club with a fanbase as big as ours and a recent history like ours, surely that's a fair ambition? Are you suggesting that Leicester fans don't want the same for their club? So where does this "God given right" bollocks actually come from? Any evidence of this phenomenon existing anywhere else other than in your mind?

The deal with Bates is not that he "saved us" or whether or not we should be in the Premiership by now, it's how he treats the fans and how he fails to invest in the team. it's also about the very strong suspicion that he is bleeding money from the club's coffers into his own personal offshore accounts.

Some facts. Leeds have the highest non-parachute payment affected turnover in the league. We turnover £28m a year compared to Leicester's £16m. Just by pure income alone, why should we not expect to be sat at the top end of this table? Since bates has come to Leeds, we have seen around £30m come in from transfers and payments for our abducted youth academy players. We have spent almost none of that. A few hundred grand here and there. You bought KS for £1m, Beckford for £3/4m. Mills for £4/5m (I really don't know the exact figures but I know they were enough). We paid £200k for Andy Lonergan and £500k for Danny Pugh. Can you start to see why we might have an issue.

Well it get's worse. Whilst we have this whopping turnover and all this money coming in from transfers, we are still sat here wondering why the **** we can't buy anyone and why we keep losing our best players (Beckford, Kilkenny, Johsnon, Kasper, Gradel, Delph and now Howson all in the last 2 years). We can't keep them because we won't pay them enough. Ok, so running the club frugally isn't the worst thing to happen but surely it's a false economy when you see the contracts being run down and the players leaving for nowt? Surely the economy is even more false where the only obvious investment coming back into the club from the monster turnover and £30m of transfer fees gained is a £7m redevelopment of THE NEWEST ****ING STAND IN THE GROUND.

Ken Bates will not build us a team. He just will not put OUR money into OUR team but he will build us a hotel and a casino.

You might be sick of hearing about Leeds fans bitterness toward Bates but don't try and lie to me that you would be happy to see this taking place at LCFC? It's fine for you to not want to here it but at least have the wherewithal not to be so ignorant of the facts behind it before forming such a firm opinion whilst you enjoy watching your manager spunk £25m over the last 12 months.....

Typical Leeds fan.

You say Bates is doing nothing to "Return you to where you were before Ridsdale ****ed it all up." Yet you say on the next breath it's an untrue cliché that Leeds fans expect to be at the sharp end of the Premier League!

Why should Bates put in his own money? The fans dont back the side, the stadium is half empty.

And can you prove beyond doubt money is being syphoned off?

You cant compare Leicester to Leeds. The project the Thais have undertaken with us is'nt based on a sound financial plan. It is a wild financial abandon.. a risk and reward gamble, and if it does not pay off I fear we may well end up in the same boat as you did under Ridsdale.

Personally I would prefer a more prudent approach.

You say you have recouped £30 million in transfer fees and spent very little, but you forget the debt the club is in, who is going to pay that? Last time I checked it was over £40 million quid.

You say he wont put YOUR money into YOUR team.

I would suggest he is saving YOUR club by paying off YOUR debts so the club is not wound up.

It's not just your fans, fans in general seem to look at football with a completely different attitude to their real lives.

Money does not grow on trees in real life, and it doesn't in football either. Someone has to pay for all the **** ups, and as the club still runs at a loss that is no easy task. Look at the owner of Florist. Put in over £100m of his own fortune and still got treated like shit.

I also notice you ignored my comments about Bates being from the South. This is a big issue with Leeds fans.

I think Leeds fans should take a long look at themselves. Their expectations are far too high and the arrogance is overwhelming when you hear the fans singing etc.

Bates has never been the best communicator, but he did a very good job with Chelsea in the end, even if the timing of Abramovich coming in was somewhat fortunate.

You certainly will never challenge for the Premiership if the fans continue to poison the atmosphere around the club. I would imagine the situation with the fans may well put off some managers from taking on the job to boot.

[Pub breath]

Typical Leeds fan.

You say Bates is doing nothing to "Return you to where you were before Ridsdale ****ed it all up." Yet you say on the next breath it's an untrue cliché that Leeds fans expect to be at the sharp end of the Premier League!

Why should Bates put in his own money? The fans dont back the side, the stadium is half empty.

And can you prove beyond doubt money is being syphoned off?

You cant compare Leicester to Leeds. The project the Thais have undertaken with us is'nt based on a sound financial plan. It is a wild financial abandon.. a risk and reward gamble, and if it does not pay off I fear we may well end up in the same boat as you did under Ridsdale.

Personally I would prefer a more prudent approach.

You say you have recouped £30 million in transfer fees and spent very little, but you forget the debt the club is in, who is going to pay that? Last time I checked it was over £40 million quid.

You say he wont put YOUR money into YOUR team.

I would suggest he is saving YOUR club by paying off YOUR debts so the club is not wound up.

It's not just your fans, fans in general seem to look at football with a completely different attitude to their real lives.

Money does not grow on trees in real life, and it doesn't in football either. Someone has to pay for all the **** ups, and as the club still runs at a loss that is no easy task. Look at the owner of Florist. Put in over £100m of his own fortune and still got treated like shit.

I also notice you ignored my comments about Bates being from the South. This is a big issue with Leeds fans.

I think Leeds fans should take a long look at themselves. Their expectations are far too high and the arrogance is overwhelming when you hear the fans singing etc.

Bates has never been the best communicator, but he did a very good job with Chelsea in the end, even if the timing of Abramovich coming in was somewhat fortunate.

You certainly will never challenge for the Premiership if the fans continue to poison the atmosphere around the club. I would imagine the situation with the fans may well put off some managers from taking on the job to boot.

Unfortunately, as I said before, you appear to be passing comment about a subject that you clearly don't have any real understanding of.

You say Bates is doing nothing to "Return you to where you were before Ridsdale ****ed it all up." Yet you say on the next breath it's an untrue cliché that Leeds fans expect to be at the sharp end of the Premier League!

Once again, you are confusing ambition with this weird concept of "God given right". Neither myself or any Leeds fan I have met has ever said that we expect to be there. We just want to be there because that's where we were, very comfortably and financially prudent for most of the 13 years before Ridsdale took us down. It's exactly the same ambition as any club of reasonable stature should have. You, Forest, Derby, West ham and the Sheffield Clubs. There are very many clubs who are big enough to have that aim as a realistic target for their club and Leeds and just one of them. Not an expectation to be found here, just hope. Try not to twist sentiment to suit your bigotry.

Why should Bates put in his own money? The fans dont back the side, the stadium is half empty.

Where have I said anything about his money? I just want him to put OUR money into the club. the money that gives us a T/O bigger than any other club in this league that isn't benefitting from parachute payments.

The fans have backed their side for years. We were averaging close to 30,000 for our first three seasons down. Late 20's in L1. We have the most expensive tickets in the league and more expensive than half the Premiership. People have finally had enough and have voted with their feet. Bate's goes, the crowds will come back but many fans have said that they will not put more money into his pocket. That's their prerogative and I don't blame them one bit.

And can you prove beyond doubt money is being syphoned off?

Well of course not, that would mean I'd be able to turn him over to the police, wouldn't it? The question remains, with our turnover so big, our wage bill so small and so many one-off monies coming into the club, where exactly has all that gone?

You cant compare Leicester to Leeds. The project the Thais have undertaken with us isn't based on a sound financial plan. It is a wild financial abandon.. a risk and reward gamble, and if it does not pay off I fear we may well end up in the same boat as you did under Ridsdale. Personally I would prefer a more prudent approach.

Actually agree with that and I too prefer prudence over unnecessary risk but there has to balance in the mix. When we get £1m for KS, £1.75m for Max Gradel, £2m for Howson, you would like to see more than £700k spent on players in response. Where has the money gone?

You say you have recouped £30 million in transfer fees and spent very little, but you forget the debt the club is in, who is going to pay that? Last time I checked it was over £40 million quid.

I'm afraid you have a terrible source. Leeds are one of the most debt-free clubs in the league now. the only major residual debt that we have is a one-off £5m payment owed if/when we are promoted back to the premiership by 2017. That's in, the rest was wiped off. No debt to service, no explanation for the missing money.....

You say he wont put YOUR money into YOUR team.

I would suggest he is saving YOUR club by paying off YOUR debts so the club is not wound up.

....so this point become moot

It's not just your fans, fans in general seem to look at football with a completely different attitude to their real lives.

Money does not grow on trees in real life, and it doesn't in football either. Someone has to pay for all the **** ups, and as the club still runs at a loss that is no easy task. Look at the owner of Florist. Put in over £100m of his own fortune and still got treated like shit.

Once again, I agree. We probably actually have a similar attitude to football finance because I certainly agree with some of your points here and nobody wants Ken to go Ridsdale crazy, that's for sure. What we do expect....and call us all a little whacky if you like.....is for the club with the biggest T/O in the league to be able to pay a few quid for a few players here and there and not spend £7m on building projects instead.

I also notice you ignored my comments about Bates being from the South. This is a big issue with Leeds fans.

Wrong. There are issue with him being from Chelsea but not the south. Leslie Silver was a southerner, nobody was ever bothered about that as far as I recall.

I think Leeds fans should take a long look at themselves. Their expectations are far too high and the arrogance is overwhelming when you hear the fans singing etc.

Bates has never been the best communicator, but he did a very good job with Chelsea in the end, even if the timing of Abramovich coming in was somewhat fortunate.

Tell me about this arrogance? I'm not really aware of it. It's a fabrication, it might exist on an individual level like in all walks of life but as a rule, it's a total fallacy. Why are Leeds expectations too high exactly? We're a big club with a huge global fanbase (estimated to be the 5th biggest in England). We are a one club city in a city with a big population. We have a history of winning some of the biggest trophies you can win in the last 40 years. Why should we not have designs on playing in the top league. Do you really think that if Leeds fans expect to see a chairman help get their club promoted to the Premiership that they have unrealistic expectations? We're not expecting to be playing in the Champions league semi-finals again any time soon but at least to play on a parity with Stoke City, Wigan Athletic, Fulham, Blackburn, Norwich, Swansea and Sunderland. Dunno, doesn't see too much to ask to me.

[z-layrex]

I've been to Leeds three times. The first time we were assaulted by skin heads in a pub toilet just for being southern.

The second time our van was broken into and thousands of pounds of musical equipment stolen, serves us right for leaving it unguarded for 10 minutes I guess$

The third time the house I was staying in was burgled over night.

Needless to say I'm never going back, and can see how the club can have such a poisonous atmosphere around it if it's located in a place like that.

[Pub breath]

I've been to Leeds three times. The first time we were assaulted by skin heads in a pub toilet just for being southern.

The second time our van was broken into and thousands of pounds of musical equipment stolen, serves us right for leaving it unguarded for 10 minutes I guess$

The third time the house I was staying in was burgled over night.

Needless to say I'm never going back, and can see how the club can have such a poisonous atmosphere around it if it's located in a place like that.

Seems like you've been terribly unlucky, which is a great pity. Leeds has a far lower crime rate than most of the major cities in the UK. In fact, other than in burglary, it has a much lower crime rate than Leicester and far, far lower than our friends from Manchester:

http://www.upmystree...-leicester.html

http://www.upmystree...e-in-leeds.html

http://www.upmystree...manchester.html

Sorry you've had a bad time in our fair city but you shouldn't let personal experience hide the truth from you. Having your car or house robbed aside, it's a safer place to live than Brighton. Sorry about that.....

http://www.upmystree...n-brighton.html

[Mack]

I dont have time to keep going back over all this.

However as you claim your fans dont think they have any right to be in the top flight then why not enjoy (according to you) being fairly solvent, stable and in the second tier of English football, stop moaning and support your club.

http://www.thesquareball.net/leeds-united/2011/07/12/time-for-some-bates-balance/

[Pub breath]

I dont have time to keep going back over all this.

However as you claim your fans dont think they have any right to be in the top flight then why not enjoy (according to you) being fairly solvent, stable and in the second tier of English football, stop moaning and support your club.

http://www.thesquare...-bates-balance/

It's a good article and some of which i agree with but then there's also the fact that it was written before Max was sold for £1.75m and before Jonny was sold for £2m, nearly £4m of which £500k was re-invested. Given that your T/O is £28m and our whole transfer budget - according to the mercurial Mr bates himself - including wages and transfer fees is £10m pa, it does beg the question "why wasn't ALL that money reinvested in the team?". When we are so obviously weak in key areas of the pitch and have lost talent out, it's very odd to then bank that money when we don't need to and risk any small chance we had of going up this season. We sit 9th, it doesn't take a mad genius to figure out that that £4m may well see us sat in the playoff spots or higher right now.

As this is a LCFC and i'm but an univited visitor to these parts, let me ask you a question about your team. How happy are you for LCFC to remain a second tier team ad infinitum and what were your hopes and expectations prior to this season?

[Mack]

It's a good article and some of which i agree with but then there's also the fact that it was written before Max was sold for £1.75m and before Jonny was sold for £2m, nearly £4m of which £500k was re-invested. Given that your T/O is £28m and our whole transfer budget - according to the mercurial Mr bates himself - including wages and transfer fees is £10m pa, it does beg the question "why wasn't ALL that money reinvested in the team?". When we are so obviously weak in key areas of the pitch and have lost talent out, it's very odd to then bank that money when we don't need to and risk any small chance we had of going up this season. We sit 9th, it doesn't take a mad genius to figure out that that £4m may well see us sat in the playoff spots or higher right now.

As this is a LCFC and i'm but an univited visitor to these parts, let me ask you a question about your team. How happy are you for LCFC to remain a second tier team ad infinitum and what were your hopes and expectations prior to this season?

If you are asking me personally, I like the championship, and I accept we are currently a Championship club that will have the odd flirt with the Premier League.

The Championship is an underrated highly competitive league that is open and even, unlike the league above.

It allows even the newcomers to dream, and achieve the dream. Look at Norwich and Southampton.

And maybe it's those dreams that in some eyes change from dreams into expectations.

If Bates it trying to invest in sustainable revenue streams for your club I'd rather that than a spend spend spend without any sustainability built in (a bit like we have at the moment)

If Bates builds a foundation to push forward from then that's a good thing.

[Pub breath]

If you are asking me personally, I like the championship, and I accept we are currently a Championship club that will have the odd flirt with the Premier League.

The Championship is an underrated highly competitive league that is open and even, unlike the league above.

It allows even the newcomers to dream, and achieve the dream. Look at Norwich and Southampton.

And maybe it's those dreams that in some eyes change from dreams into expectations.

If Bates it trying to invest in sustainable revenue streams for your club I'd rather that than a spend spend spend without any sustainability built in (a bit like we have at the moment)

If Bates builds a foundation to push forward from then that's a good thing.

I don't dislike the Championship either and it's certainly a more competitive league than the Premiership and with some decent quality in parts. Tthese dreams you talk about though, all lead to the same destination. The Championship isn't a standalone competition, it's there to be a vehicle - for the teams who are good enough - to provide a passage to the wealth, notoriety and glamour of the top league. At the start of this season, there were very few teams who would have not had at least designs on one of the playoff spots. Those designs were not for the privilege of finishing 5th or 6th, it was purely because it gives them a shot at getting into the top league. That's the purpose that the league serves and I have little doubt that if you were in the middle of your 15th straight season in this league with your promotion hopes starting to drift away now, you'd not be quite so bullish about life in the Championship.

As i've said a few times, i'm all for the concept of prudence and sound financial management of LUFC, few of us have forgotten our inglorious fall from grace and what was the catalyst behind it. Boom and bust is not what we are after, what we are after is prudent investment. Sustainable investment. I have a hard time accepting that the only way to be prudent is to have a wage cap that is the lowest that I am aware of in the league and to spend almost no money on the first team.

What is going on at LUFC at the minute is not prudent management of the club, it is deranged misappropriation of our revenues. Our transfer record under Bates is £500k. We survive mainly on free transfers and loan players. We see roughly £30m come in yet nobody has a clue where all that has gone. We turn an operating profit each season yet refuse to invest that profit back into the playing staff. The only substantial investment that has gone back into Elland Road is to redevelop the one stand that didn't need redeveloping and in getting plans approved to build a hotel and casino. In Beeston. Just off the M621. Who wants to stop in a ****ing hotel in Beeston when there isn't a match on???????

Now for a moment, please put your obvious dislike of Leeds fans to one side and try and look at that situation objectively for me. Does that really sound like the prudence you think we have? If you aren't going to invest in playing assets, prudence would be to bank that money for a "rainy day" and not to waste it on totally harebrained construction projects on a ground....oh did I actually mention this? On a ground that we don't even ****ing well own.

One mans prudence is another man's insane folly.

[Mack]

Sounds to me like Bates it trying to invest money wisely and provide the club with sustainable revenue streams.

What's the problem with that?

I'm tired of going around in circles with this.

My advice for Leeds fans... ask Ridsdale to come back. He'll give you what you want!

p.s. I dont hate Leeds fans, I just hate their attitude.

[Saxondale]

Regarding Leeds fans' attitude towards feeling they belong in the Premier League, I don't think it's anything more than the same sort of ambition that we have at the club. I'm fairly sure most Leeds fans don't regard it as a 'god-given right' by any means - they've had plenty of glory days but also a period of humbling (as have we).

Ken Bates is one of those footballing characters I just don't trust and, as always with these sort of men, it's natural to question their motivation and their intentions.

I can't blame any chairman for being prudent with money (if, of course, that is what he is being). We, of all clubs, are a case study into how spending a (comparatively) large amount of money doesn't bring automatic success and many great Championship sides over the past few years have been built on relative shoestrings.

Sacking Grayson and particularly at this point in time does seem an odd thing to do, mind.

[Basingstoke Fox]

I don't dislike the Championship either and it's certainly a more competitive league than the Premiership and with some decent quality in parts. Tthese dreams you talk about though, all lead to the same destination. The Championship isn't a standalone competition, it's there to be a vehicle - for the teams who are good enough - to provide a passage to the wealth, notoriety and glamour of the top league. At the start of this season, there were very few teams who would have not had at least designs on one of the playoff spots. Those designs were not for the privilege of finishing 5th or 6th, it was purely because it gives them a shot at getting into the top league. That's the purpose that the league serves and I have little doubt that if you were in the middle of your 15th straight season in this league with your promotion hopes starting to drift away now, you'd not be quite so bullish about life in the Championship.

As i've said a few times, i'm all for the concept of prudence and sound financial management of LUFC, few of us have forgotten our inglorious fall from grace and what was the catalyst behind it. Boom and bust is not what we are after, what we are after is prudent investment. Sustainable investment. I have a hard time accepting that the only way to be prudent is to have a wage cap that is the lowest that I am aware of in the league and to spend almost no money on the first team.

What is going on at LUFC at the minute is not prudent management of the club, it is deranged misappropriation of our revenues. Our transfer record under Bates is £500k. We survive mainly on free transfers and loan players. We see roughly £30m come in yet nobody has a clue where all that has gone. We turn an operating profit each season yet refuse to invest that profit back into the playing staff. The only substantial investment that has gone back into Elland Road is to redevelop the one stand that didn't need redeveloping and in getting plans approved to build a hotel and casino. In Beeston. Just off the M621. Who wants to stop in a ****ing hotel in Beeston when there isn't a match on???????

Now for a moment, please put your obvious dislike of Leeds fans to one side and try and look at that situation objectively for me. Does that really sound like the prudence you think we have? If you aren't going to invest in playing assets, prudence would be to bank that money for a "rainy day" and not to waste it on totally harebrained construction projects on a ground....oh did I actually mention this? On a ground that we don't even ****ing well own.

One mans prudence is another man's insane folly.

Would suggest that Grayson did a fantastic job. Bates is a fool to get rid.

[Pub breath]

Sounds to me like Bates it trying to invest money wisely and provide the club with sustainable revenue streams.

What's the problem with that?

I'm tired of going around in circles with this.

My advice for Leeds fans... ask Ridsdale to come back. He'll give you what you want!

p.s. I dont hate Leeds fans, I just hate their attitude.

I personally think you don't know enough about what is going on at Elland Road these days to question our attitude that way.

By far the quickest return on investment Ken bates could make is on putting the team in the Premiership. Last time we were there, our T/O was nearly 3 times where it is now, no hotel or casino is ever going to deliever that sort of bang for your book, especially not when it's in ****ING BEESTON!!!! Surely even you can concede that building those sorts of leisure facilities in the scraggy arse end of Leeds, miles from anywhere, is totally bananas?

Regarding Leeds fans' attitude towards feeling they belong in the Premier League, I don't think it's anything more than the same sort of ambition that we have at the club. I'm fairly sure most Leeds fans don't regard it as a 'god-given right' by any means - they've had plenty of glory days but also a period of humbling (as have we).

Ken Bates is one of those footballing characters I just don't trust and, as always with these sort of men, it's natural to question their motivation and their intentions.

I can't blame any chairman for being prudent with money (if, of course, that is what he is being). We, of all clubs, are a case study into how spending a (comparatively) large amount of money doesn't bring automatic success and many great Championship sides over the past few years have been built on relative shoestrings.

Sacking Grayson and particularly at this point in time does seem an odd thing to do, mind.

Good post in all respects.

The crux of the matter is that there are teams who have well merited aims to gain promotion to the Premiership and clubs who would love to be there but sort of know that just their size alone, makes it a less realistic aim. Even then, that's not stopped Fulham, Wigan, Blackburn, Stoke and other teams over the years taking their chance up there and staying put for some time, despite their small catchment areas and low crowds.

There are two clubs from Sheffield in the league below us that really should both be up there. Forest, West Ham, Southampton and yes, Leicester City are much bigger clubs than a good number of teams up there so it's only normal to expect your "bigger club" to be able to fight it out in that sort of company. if they can be there, so can we. Right? Peterborough United may have a whole different way of looking at it, by contrast.

I don't think it's arrogance to suggest that Leeds United are probably the biggest club not currently in the Premiership. I think that's probably just about right. Maybe Forest, Wednesday or West Ham might not agree but I suspect most other fans would. If that is where we are in the pecking order then it's only natural that where we expect our club to be taken is up to the top tier of football. That, by absolutely no stretch of the imagination, somehow translates to us believing that we have some sort of odd "right" to be there. We are here because we deserve to be here and if we fail to extricate ourselves from this situation this season, we will be here for another year, where we deserve to be.

....and you're right, sacking Grayson is very odd and in my view, will not help us in our ambitions one bit.

Thanks for a fair minded post though

Would suggest that Grayson did a fantastic job. Bates is a fool to get rid.

Aye

[Mack]

I don't think it's arrogance to suggest that Leeds United are probably the biggest club not currently in the Premiership. I think that's probably just about right.

I rest my case.

This is the attitude that pisses me and many other people off.

[Pub breath]

I rest my case.

This is the attitude that pisses me and many other people off.

Why? I said probably. Who would you honestly suggest is a bigger club?

[Soar Fox]

Why? I said probably. Who would you honestly suggest is a bigger club?

I'd give up mate. He's going to try and argue about anything you say and look for an argument. My best friend is a Leeds fan and he's also angry about the lack of investment bate's has put into your playing squad. Just goes to show what a fine job Grayson did though.

[Soar Fox]

Read somewhere that since 2004 Leeds united have had 64 loan players, received £22.5 million in transfer fees and spent £2.5 million on players.