Same-sex marriage

[Daggers]

I want to be called Loretta and I demand the right to have babies !!

There you go then

[Captain...]

Yes, but unfortunately I'm sat on the 'big wheely thing' because I'm not allowed to call my vehicle a bus

You can call it what you want, but they are very slightly different things, I mean nobody on here has mentioned the fact that they want religious symbols and music in ceremonies:

Until now it has been banned for civil partnership ceremonies to include religious readings, music or symbols and forbidden for them to take place in religious venues, regardless of the views of the building's owners. In Scotland, which has its own legislation, some church parishes offer blessing ceremonies for same-sex couples.

Also nobody has used the argument that same sex partners of peers are not entitled to a title.

Any other practical differences?

Civil partners of male peers or knights do not receive a courtesy title to which the spouse of a peer or knight would be entitled.

So it really just is the name, and they are different things, doesn't matter how you slice it, doesn't matter how trivial the difference is.

So what would you prefer it to be called?

Gay Marriage or Civil Union?

[AdamN]

I am playing devil's advocate here, but what difference does a name make, does a rose by any other name not smell just as sweet.

I don't think the actual term 'marriage' is the real issue here. It's simply a case of 'why should homosexual couples be treated any differently?' and I fully agree with that stance.

Take the example of black people being made to sit at the back of the bus. Yes, sitting at the back of the bus may not be any different to sitting at the front - you'll get exactly the same service as everyone else on the bus, and you'll all arrive at exactly the same destination(s) at exactly the same time, but why shouldn't a black person be able to sit at the front? What makes them so different? And how would it in any way affect the journey of the other passengers?

[Daggers]

Also nobody has used the argument that same sex partners of peers are not entitled to a title.

Considering the entire institution is long past reform, a inherited titles are an odious anachronism, that's one right I'll not be supporting gays are awarded.

[Captain...]

Considering the entire institution is long past reform, a inherited titles are an odious anachronism, that's one right I'll not be supporting gays are awarded.

But that is the only difference between civil unions and marriages I could find apart from the use of religious symbols in the ceremonies.

[Houdini Logic]

You can call it what you want, but they are very slightly different things, I mean nobody on here has mentioned the fact that they want religious symbols and music in ceremonies:

You can't and that's exactly the point.

Let's entertain your idea for the minute and say I was a gay man who was religious and did want to be married in a church with music and all the trimmings - why is that different in any way?

[Guest Bilo]

There you go then

IT IS SYMBOLIC OF HIS STRUGGLE AGAINST OPPRESSION!

[FuriousFox46]

You can call it what you want, but they are very slightly different things, I mean nobody on here has mentioned the fact that they want religious symbols and music in ceremonies:

Also nobody has used the argument that same sex partners of peers are not entitled to a title.

So it really just is the name, and they are different things, doesn't matter how you slice it, doesn't matter how trivial the difference is.

So what would you prefer it to be called?

Gay Marriage or Civil Union?

Equality is equality.

If it's not identical treatment then it isn't fair. It really is that simple.

[Captain...]

I don't think the actual term 'marriage' is the real issue here. It's simply a case of 'why should homosexual couples be treated any differently?' and I fully agree with that stance.

Take the example of black people being made to sit at the back of the bus. Yes, sitting at the back of the bus may not be any different to sitting at the front - you'll get exactly the same service as everyone else on the bus, and you'll all arrive at exactly the same destination(s) at exactly the same time, but why shouldn't a black person be able to sit at the front? What makes them so different? And how would it in any way affect the journey of the other passengers?

But there is a practical difference between the 2, as opposed to your example of black people on the bus where the difference is only in skin colour and the difference in how they are treated is a status thing. The practical difference is that it is 2 men or 2 women getting married and they require a ceremony that reflects that and legislation that ensures that the law is able to fairly handle disputes in civil unions/gay marriages. Even in terms of defining the consummation of the marriage, like I said they are different and the name and the legislation and the rules need to reflect that and therefore they should have different names.

Equality is equality.

If it's not identical treatment then it isn't fair. It really is that simple.

But these are not identical situations, as described above.

[Captain...]

You can't and that's exactly the point.

Let's entertain your idea for the minute and say I was a gay man who was religious and did want to be married in a church with music and all the trimmings - why is that different in any way?

Then you are right and I would completely support that, although I wonder why you would want to get married in a place in which you are routinely condemned you to Hell for your lifestyle choice.

So if these restrictions on religion were removed, would you be happy for it still be called a Civil Union? or would you prefer the term Gay Marriage?

[Daggers]

But that is the only difference between civil unions and marriages I could find apart from the use of religious symbols in the ceremonies.

There was absolutely nothing religious about my marriage, no symbolism, no imagery, no words - that bit is far from compulsory. A marriage is nothing more than a legal document binding two people to, what was then, a tax bracket and easy inheritance when I kill her.

The difference is a name - and those who claim that it doesn't make much of a difference so what's the problem - if I referred to a black gentleman as a nigger there would be a great deal of a problem with words.

Words are powerful things, they convey status, entitlements - words go beyond simply being superficial descriptions. Words cause wars and bring about peace.

Humans are humans, they are all entitled to be able to use the same words regardless of sexual orientation if they wish because anything else is bigotry based upon hatred or religion - the first should be illegal and the later shouldn't be tolerated in a largely secular country.

If you are a church who doesn't want to carry out the ceremony, fine. Don't.

But do not deny equal access to equal rights for people equal in every way to us all.

[FuriousFox46]

But there is a practical difference between the 2, as opposed to your example of black people on the bus where the difference is only in skin colour and the difference in how they are treated is a status thing. The practical difference is that it is 2 men or 2 women getting married and they require a ceremony that reflects that and legislation that ensures that the law is able to fairly handle disputes in civil unions/gay marriages. Even in terms of defining the consummation of the marriage, like I said they are different and the name and the legislation and the rules need to reflect that and therefore they should have different names.

But these are not identical situations, as described above.

Man + Woman = love

Man + Man = love

Woman + Woman = love

I hate to get all soppy but what on earth isn't identical there? Same outcome, different working out;

Man + Woman = marriage

Man + Man = civil partnership

Woman + Woman = civil partnership

They should all lead to the same end result. Regardless of whether it's essentially the same thing.

e·qual·i·ty/iˈkwälitē/

Noun:

• The state of being equal, esp. in status, rights, and opportunities.
  
• The condition of being equal in number or amount.
  

That definition means every person whether they're a man, woman, white, black, blonde, brunette, ginger, gay, straight, Forest or Leicester has the right to MARRY somebody.

I don't want to 'civil union' my partner.

[Gold Coast Fox]

Man + Woman = love

Man + Man = love

Woman + Woman = love

I hate to get all soppy but what on earth isn't identical there? Same outcome, different working out;

Man + Woman = marriage

Man + Man = civil partnership

Woman + Woman = civil partnership

They should all lead to the same end result. Regardless of whether it's essentially the same thing.

e·qual·i·ty/iˈkwälitē/

Noun:

• The state of being equal, esp. in status, rights, and opportunities.
  
• The condition of being equal in number or amount.
  

That definition means every person whether they're a man, woman, white, black, blonde, brunette, ginger, gay, straight, Forest or Leicester has the right to MARRY somebody.

I don't want to 'civil union' my partner.

That's done it! You have officially talked you're way into my heart.

Marry me? Civil partnership me doesn't have the same ring to it.

[Captain...]

Man + Woman = love

Man + Man = love

Woman + Woman = love

I hate to get all soppy but what on earth isn't identical there? Same outcome, different working out;

Man + Woman = marriage

Man + Man = civil partnership

Woman + Woman = civil partnership

They should all lead to the same end result. Regardless of whether it's essentially the same thing.

e·qual·i·ty/iˈkwälitē/

Noun:

• The state of being equal, esp. in status, rights, and opportunities.
  
• The condition of being equal in number or amount.
  

That definition means every person whether they're a man, woman, white, black, blonde, brunette, ginger, gay, straight, Forest or Leicester has the right to MARRY somebody.

I don't want to 'civil union' my partner.

Ok so call it a Gay Marriage, like I said I am largely playing Devil's Advocate, but if you love someone then what does it matter how it is officially called it still means the same thing and is recognised as being the same thing by all those that matter.

[Houdini Logic]

Then you are right and I would completely support that, although I wonder why you would want to get married in a place in which you are routinely condemned you to Hell for your lifestyle choice.

So if these restrictions on religion were removed, would you be happy for it still be called a Civil Union? or would you prefer the term Gay Marriage?

I'll still entertain your idea and ask why would anyone want to get married in a place with a questionable track record of child abuse, straight or gay?!

And no, I'll be happy to call it marriage.

[Houdini Logic]

Ok so call it a Gay Marriage, like I said I am largely playing Devil's Advocate, but if you love someone that what does it matter how it is officially called it still means the same thing and is recognised as being the same thing by all those that matter.

No, call it ****ing marriage!

That's like saying, well we won't call you a nigger anymore, we'll just call you a 'black person'.

No, they're just a person

[Captain...]

I'll still entertain your idea and ask why would anyone want to get married in a place with a questionable track record of child abuse, straight or gay?!

And no, I'll be happy to call it marriage.

Devout atheist me mate, I don't know why anyone would want to either.

And when you phone up to do book your marriage, and they ask you what type of marriage you would like? What would you say?

No, call it ****ing marriage!

That's like saying, well we won't call you a nigger anymore, we'll just call you a 'black person'.

No, they're just a person

But how would you describe them to someone without using the word black?

[Houdini Logic]

Devout atheist me mate, I don't know why anyone would want to either.

And when you phone up to do book your marriage, and they ask you what type of marriage you would like? What would you say?

Why would they ask that question?

[Houdini Logic]

Devout atheist me mate, I don't know why anyone would want to either.

And when you phone up to do book your marriage, and they ask you what type of marriage you would like? What would you say?

But how would you describe them to someone without using the word black?

A person!

[Daggers]

Ok so call it a Gay Marriage, like I said I am largely playing Devil's Advocate, but if you love someone then what does it matter how it is officially called it still means the same thing

Yep - let's reintroduce coon and zib along with nigger and darkie, them coloureds will know that they mean the same thing and aren't in the least bit discriminatory. It's just words, innit.

[Captain...]

Why would they ask that question?

Because by changing the name from civil union to marriage there are 3 types of marriage.

I bet when you book a civil union they ask what type, 2 males or 2 females?

This is my point at some level, even at the most pointless and trivial 2 men getting married is different to 2 women getting married which is different to a man and a woman getting married.

There needs to be clear definitions of these differences for practical and legal reasons.

You can call it a civil union and a marriage

You can call it a gay marriage/lesbian marriage/straight marriage,

You can call it Anal, missionary or scissoring

It doesn't matter what you call it, but there needs to be at some levels a distinction because they are different.

[FuriousFox46]

That's done it! You have officially talked you're way into my heart.

Marry me? Civil partnership me doesn't have the same ring to it.

Okay

Ok so call it a Gay Marriage, like I said I am largely playing Devil's Advocate, but if you love someone then what does it matter how it is officially called it still means the same thing and is recognised as being the same thing by all those that matter.

How about I call it marriage?

We don't refer to black, white or straight marriages. Why this should be any different is beyond me.

[Houdini Logic]

Because by changing the name from civil union to marriage there are 3 types of marriage.

I bet when you book a civil union they ask what type, 2 males or 2 females?

This is my point at some level, even at the most pointless and trivial 2 men getting married is different to 2 women getting married which is different to a man and a woman getting married.

There needs to be clear definitions of these differences for practical and legal reasons.

You can call it a civil union and a marriage

You can call it a gay marriage/lesbian marriage/straight marriage,

You can call it Anal, missionary or scissoring

It doesn't matter what you call it, but there needs to be at some levels a distinction because they are different.

Explain the practical reasons behind needing to know whether it is two men or two women?!?!

This has gone from playing devil's advocate to splitting hairs to flaunting a dead and nonsensical argument

[Captain...]

A person!

Really, so if I am writing a story and I have a character in it who is black, and I am giving a description of him I can't give any more details to his appearance than he was a person. Or maybe I witness a black man being kidnapped, the police ask me to describe him, what do I say? He was a person. Very helpful.

Sometimes need you need to use someone's colour to describe them.

Likewise sometimes you need to describe someone's sacred vows by their sexuality, I am not denying anyone any rights here, I am just saying the only difference is the name, and the name is not important it is what it stands for that is important.

Put it this way:

Marriage is 2 people getting married

Gay Marriage is 2 people of the same sex getting married

Straight Marriage is 2 people of opposite sex getting married

Why are you so offended by me saying that?

[FuriousFox46]

Really, so if I am writing a story and I have a character in it who is black, and I am giving a description of him I can't give any more details to his appearance than he was a person. Or maybe I witness a black man being kidnapped, the police ask me to describe him, what do I say? He was a person. Very helpful.

Sometimes need you need to use someone's colour to describe them.

Likewise sometimes you need to describe someone's sacred vows by their sexuality, I am not denying anyone any rights here, I am just saying the only difference is the name, and the name is not important it is what it stands for that is important.

Put it this way:

Marriage is 2 people getting married

Gay Marriage is 2 people of the same sex getting married

Straight Marriage is 2 people of opposite sex getting married

Why are you so offended by me saying that?

True.

It's just like those white, black, mixed race, south Asian and Nepalese marriages.