Save the NHS

[Daggers]

Where did I say someone in Sunderland should be paid less?

Sorry - I was rushed at this end, I need to go back and re-read posts. Apologies if I've inferred the wrong thing. I'll get back to you on this...

[Trav Le Bleu]

In a world where quarterbacks get paid $12,000,000 a year, I'm not sure what's right any more. We could probably get the NHS running lickitty split by using all the money paid to footballers.

The answer's simple... say NO to football!

[z-layrex]

I just hope they unfreeze the increments for nurses soon. Been qualified 2 years now and still on the bottom pay rung.

[Houdini Logic]

If the Conservatives put it forward then it's probably a good thing though.

Please keep blindly following the conservative party and posting the things you do - you're doing much more than my factual arguments and attempted wit ever could in making them look like a party for morons.

The idea was to build a coop - but I discovered chickens are very right wing and preferred outright property ownership to a shared collective.

I hate to break this to you but my turkeys have bought up all available houses in your area with multiple buy-to-let investments...

[The Doctor]

The idea was to build a coop - but I discovered chickens are very right wing and preferred outright property ownership to a shared collective.

I'm sure any anti-state chickens would appreciate a good coup.

Please keep blindly following the conservative party and posting the things you do - you're doing much more than my factual arguments and attempted wit ever could in making them look like a party for morons.

- if he could some how sympathise with labour as well, we'd be ****ing sorted in showing them for the morons they are.

[Zingari]

The NHS is the world's 5th biggest employer

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17429786

[Jon the Hat]

The NHS is the world's 5th biggest employer

http://www.bbc.co.uk...gazine-17429786

Not for long, Serco to take over...

[reynard]

I'm not an expert on the NHS and my experience can only be drawn from our family's dealings with it in the last few months of my father's life and recent dealing my father in law has had with it.

From this I can only say how absolutely shocked I was by the overall wastage, unnecessary levels of bureaucracy and in some case absolutely terrible levels of nursing. When he died expensive virtually new equipment was basically left with us to and I quote "sell if we wanted to as we don't want it back". Two days after he died it was reassuring to get a letter from one of the local NHS departments stating that the electric indoor wheelchair he needed and for which he had been assessed by THREE different departments four months previously could now be ordered as the paperwork had now been completed. This is just one example of a mass of paperwork under which NHS staff try to operate.

The fact is that despite massive investment in the service hospitals remain filthy in places, the care offered is not of a good enough standard, some of the nursing my father needed had to be done by my 80 year old mother as they didn't seem to want to do things and other patients were left without necessary water etc for long periods of time.

I do not wish to offend nurses etc on here and those in the service who do a good job but it is in desperate need of reform.Sadly whilst it remains in the grip of politicians it becomes a subject where proper debate just becomes a slanging match between those (often on the left) who simply accuse the one lot of destroying the NHS and those (often on the right) who simply accuse the other lot of pouring money down a black hole. Personally I'd like to see the NHS completely removed from the political sphere so that ideologies can be removed from the running of it and so it can be moved forward in a positive way and truly be a great service for which we all pay a great deal of money each year through the tax system.

I know send for the white coats!

[sphericalfox]

I'm not an expert on the NHS and my experience can only be drawn from our family's dealings with it in the last few months of my father's life and recent dealing my father in law has had with it.

From this I can only say how absolutely shocked I was by the overall wastage, unnecessary levels of bureaucracy and in some case absolutely terrible levels of nursing. When he died expensive virtually new equipment was basically left with us to and I quote "sell if we wanted to as we don't want it back". Two days after he died it was reassuring to get a letter from one of the local NHS departments stating that the electric indoor wheelchair he needed and for which he had been assessed by THREE different departments four months previously could now be ordered as the paperwork had now been completed. This is just one example of a mass of paperwork under which NHS staff try to operate.

The fact is that despite massive investment in the service hospitals remain filthy in places, the care offered is not of a good enough standard, some of the nursing my father needed had to be done by my 80 year old mother as they didn't seem to want to do things and other patients were left without necessary water etc for long periods of time.

I do not wish to offend nurses etc on here and those in the service who do a good job but it is in desperate need of reform.Sadly whilst it remains in the grip of politicians it becomes a subject where proper debate just becomes a slanging match between those (often on the left) who simply accuse the one lot of destroying the NHS and those (often on the right) who simply accuse the other lot of pouring money down a black hole. Personally I'd like to see the NHS completely removed from the political sphere so that ideologies can be removed from the running of it and so it can be moved forward in a positive way and truly be a great service for which we all pay a great deal of money each year through the tax system.

I know send for the white coats!

name and shame the organisation

also here's a link to a variety of places where you should air your views. the nhs won't change, if it needs to, unless people complain about what's wrong.

[NeilyBoy]

I'm not an expert on the NHS and my experience can only be drawn from our family's dealings with it in the last few months of my father's life and recent dealing my father in law has had with it.

From this I can only say how absolutely shocked I was by the overall wastage, unnecessary levels of bureaucracy and in some case absolutely terrible levels of nursing. When he died expensive virtually new equipment was basically left with us to and I quote "sell if we wanted to as we don't want it back". Two days after he died it was reassuring to get a letter from one of the local NHS departments stating that the electric indoor wheelchair he needed and for which he had been assessed by THREE different departments four months previously could now be ordered as the paperwork had now been completed. This is just one example of a mass of paperwork under which NHS staff try to operate.

The fact is that despite massive investment in the service hospitals remain filthy in places, the care offered is not of a good enough standard, some of the nursing my father needed had to be done by my 80 year old mother as they didn't seem to want to do things and other patients were left without necessary water etc for long periods of time.

I do not wish to offend nurses etc on here and those in the service who do a good job but it is in desperate need of reform.Sadly whilst it remains in the grip of politicians it becomes a subject where proper debate just becomes a slanging match between those (often on the left) who simply accuse the one lot of destroying the NHS and those (often on the right) who simply accuse the other lot of pouring money down a black hole. Personally I'd like to see the NHS completely removed from the political sphere so that ideologies can be removed from the running of it and so it can be moved forward in a positive way and truly be a great service for which we all pay a great deal of money each year through the tax system.

I know send for the white coats!

I don't mean to belittle the rest of your post; it's a good example of the inefficiency of British bureaucracy, but that sounds a lot like you're promoting privatisation of the NHS...

[Jon the Hat]

In very many ways the NHS is antiquated. Nursing practises are decades behind the US, Canada and Australia for example. Even the Phillipines which follows American training standards is better. It is hard to see unless you have worked in more than one though. Removing promotion by length of service and putting in place a meritocracy would help, but that seems to be true of lots of public sector, Union controlled workplaces.

[sphericalfox]

In very many ways the NHS is antiquated. Nursing practises are decades behind the US, Canada and Australia for example. Even the Phillipines which follows American training standards is better. It is hard to see unless you have worked in more than one though. Removing promotion by length of service and putting in place a meritocracy would help, but that seems to be true of lots of public sector, Union controlled workplaces.

Believe it or not Jon, it's not the culture of the frontline that needs to change in the NHS, it's the at the top. And that won't change until radical intervention takes place. As the NHS faces the brink of privatisation I might suggest that a lot of executives, who, like their politician cousins, exist to serve their own personal gain both financially and professionally. Not all are that way, but I've seen enough throughout the system who won't mind the chance to rub shoulders with private companies to open future opportunities.

[z-layrex]

In very many ways the NHS is antiquated. Nursing practises are decades behind the US, Canada and Australia for example. Even the Phillipines which follows American training standards is better. It is hard to see unless you have worked in more than one though. Removing promotion by length of service and putting in place a meritocracy would help, but that seems to be true of lots of public sector, Union controlled workplaces.

How is our nursing practice decades behind other countries? That is such a myth! I've worked with hundreds of Filipino and some American/Australian nurses over the years and there is certainly no difference in competence between them and British nurses.

British nurses often train for longer, we make decisions and act on a patients condition unlike in the states where they can only make interventions based on medical instruction ('orders'). If I was working in the states and my patient became haemodynamically unstable I would not be allowed to give a fluid challenge, record and diagnose an ECG, increase dosage of inotropes/vasopressors if appropriate etc. I would first have to get permission from a doctor.

The only difference is our training was previously not all graduate, which is now changing. I work in Critical Care and i've personally experienced quite a few nurses move here from the countries you mentioned and really struggle at first. Just because we were diploma trained does not mean our training was inadequate, in-fact we always performed better than the Bsc students because we had more patient contact.

There are definitely problems with our training, such as I believe there is far too much centred upon legislation, health promotion, ethics etc and far too little anatomy & physiology, pharmacology etc, but this is soon rectified with a couple years of practice (if you're a good nurse). It is an American myth that their training is superior to ours, and really winds me up when I hear people say it. We work in completely different healthcare system and you really shouldn't compare to the two. You also shouldnt be making such insulting, generilised statements about an entire profession you know very little about. Just becauase you have a lot of experience with the nhs does not mean you know nursing.

[The Year Of The Fox]

The government should do like an 'undercover boss' program. They'd find so many things that could be corrected and save vast amounts of money.

I was working at one of the three hospitals yesterday. I was told by my colleague that they had several walk in baths installed a couple of years ago, at 600 quid each. Last year they were replaced with showers as they realised they couldn't shock anyone suffering from a heart attack who is still in a bath.

One of the onsite plumbers there used to work for our firm. He's regularly booking 180 hours a month overtime at 16 quid an hour as they make out they don't have the time during their usual working day which is bollox

[Jon the Hat]

How is our nursing practice decades behind other countries? That is such a myth! I've worked with hundreds of Filipino and some American/Australian nurses over the years and there is certainly no difference in competence between them and British nurses.

British nurses often train for longer, we make decisions and act on a patients condition unlike in the states where they can only make interventions based on medical instruction ('orders'). If I was working in the states and my patient became haemodynamically unstable I would not be allowed to give a fluid challenge, record and diagnose an ECG, increase dosage of inotropes/vasopressors if appropriate etc. I would first have to get permission from a doctor.

The only difference is our training was previously not all graduate, which is now changing. I work in Critical Care and i've personally experienced quite a few nurses move here from the countries you mentioned and really struggle at first. Just because we were diploma trained does not mean our training was inadequate, in-fact we always performed better than the Bsc students because we had more patient contact.

There are definitely problems with our training, such as I believe there is far too much centred upon legislation, health promotion, ethics etc and far too little anatomy & physiology, pharmacology etc, but this is soon rectified with a couple years of practice (if you're a good nurse). It is an American myth that their training is superior to ours, and really winds me up when I hear people say it. We work in completely different healthcare system and you really shouldn't compare to the two. You also shouldnt be making such insulting, generilsed statements about an entire profession you know very little about. Just becauase you have a lot of experience with the nhs does not mean you know nursing.

My Mum is a nurse and my Wife is a nurse, and I have a huge amount of respect (Love!!) for nurses. I also know quite a few nurses from all the countries I mentioned and more. To be fair I guess most of the ones who express these opinions are of the younger generation which would be a significant factor - and also express a lot of criticism at the way the NHS in general is run. I also suspect perhaps working in critical care you would probably (generalisation again sorry) find yourself amongst the best trained and most capable of your colleagues.

I think your comments about anatomy & physiology, pharmacology reflect pretty much the skills side of my point. The rest of it is less about skills and training and more about organisational structure, holistic patient care and accountability, all of which my wife tells me is far better in Australia which is essentially the American model. Add to that the seeming inability to get rid of useless nurses (all useless staff for that matter) and the attitude that Consultants are god and must be obeyed even if that is detrimental to the patient and the general level & chaos of admin required of nurses and you have a dysfunctional picture. Like I said, not all about skills, training and experience, but also about overall ways of working. I should have been more specific and less general in my original point, and I apologise for that.

[davieG]

I'm not an expert on the NHS and my experience can only be drawn from our family's dealings with it in the last few months of my father's life and recent dealing my father in law has had with it.

From this I can only say how absolutely shocked I was by the overall wastage, unnecessary levels of bureaucracy and in some case absolutely terrible levels of nursing. When he died expensive virtually new equipment was basically left with us to and I quote "sell if we wanted to as we don't want it back". Two days after he died it was reassuring to get a letter from one of the local NHS departments stating that the electric indoor wheelchair he needed and for which he had been assessed by THREE different departments four months previously could now be ordered as the paperwork had now been completed. This is just one example of a mass of paperwork under which NHS staff try to operate.

The fact is that despite massive investment in the service hospitals remain filthy in places, the care offered is not of a good enough standard, some of the nursing my father needed had to be done by my 80 year old mother as they didn't seem to want to do things and other patients were left without necessary water etc for long periods of time.

I do not wish to offend nurses etc on here and those in the service who do a good job but it is in desperate need of reform.Sadly whilst it remains in the grip of politicians it becomes a subject where proper debate just becomes a slanging match between those (often on the left) who simply accuse the one lot of destroying the NHS and those (often on the right) who simply accuse the other lot of pouring money down a black hole. Personally I'd like to see the NHS completely removed from the political sphere so that ideologies can be removed from the running of it and so it can be moved forward in a positive way and truly be a great service for which we all pay a great deal of money each year through the tax system.

I know send for the white coats!

My experience of large corporate private companies is equally frustrating, wasteful, poor customer service plus over pricing and hidden extras/small print. I don't think the problem is so much private v public but small, media, large, national, international and out of sight/touch from the customer.

[davieG]

Believe it or not Jon, it's not the culture of the frontline that needs to change in the NHS, it's the at the top. And that won't change until radical intervention takes place. As the NHS faces the brink of privatisation I might suggest that a lot of executives, who, like their politician cousins, exist to serve their own personal gain both financially and professionally. Not all are that way, but I've seen enough throughout the system who won't mind the chance to rub shoulders with private companies to open future opportunities.

Most of the problems at the top are the result of continuous and contradicting intervention, the main problem with nationalised institutions is that successive governments believe they know better than the those trained to run them.

[sphericalfox]

Most of the problems at the top are the result of continuous and contradicting intervention, the main problem with nationalised institutions is that successive governments believe they know better than the those trained to run them.

Having worked in the Department of Health, the civil servants primarily are there to provide whatever their masters command. Challenge nothing. Totally submissive.

The problem with the cultural change that needs to occur to stop wastage, repetition, and improve efficiency, is that a top down change must happen. From the boards, to the executive running the places providing our health services. It's difficult for frontline staff to believe a word the executive has to say if they themselves are not walking the walk, rather than just talking. The same principle applies to politicians. The cynicism in the public sector is such that it would take something to change a culture of dismissive responsibility, a lack of teamwork, and sometimes an ethos of selfishness. Not all those attributes are applicable to all sectors, but I've seen it first hand to recognise that without that change at the top, then no amount of shifting the NHS will make a dot of difference, and it's doomed to further failure.

[davieG]

Having worked in the Department of Health, the civil servants primarily are there to provide whatever their masters command. Challenge nothing. Totally submissive.

The problem with the cultural change that needs to occur to stop wastage, repetition, and improve efficiency, is that a top down change must happen. From the boards, to the executive running the places providing our health services. It's difficult for frontline staff to believe a word the executive has to say if they themselves are not walking the walk, rather than just talking. The same principle applies to politicians. The cynicism in the public sector is such that it would take something to change a culture of dismissive responsibility, a lack of teamwork, and sometimes an ethos of selfishness. Not all those attributes are applicable to all sectors, but I've seen it first hand to recognise that without that change at the top, then no amount of shifting the NHS will make a dot of difference, and it's doomed to further failure.

But as i said those people at the top you refer to and their positions where created by interfering politicians, I have no belief that the current crop or the next crop of politicians whoever they may be will do any thing but make matters worse because for them doctrine rules.

[sphericalfox]

But as i said those people at the top you refer to and their positions where created by interfering politicians, I have no belief that the current crop or the next crop of politicians whoever they may be will do any thing but make matters worse because for them doctrine rules.

I wasn't referring to the DH, regional headquarters nor the PCTs, I was referring to the CEOs and executives at Hospital Trusts, and including Mental Health. Yes those above them have had their positions created by previous Govmts. The Tories are hell bent on putting legislation through that will irreversibly change the way the NHS operates. Literally no going back EVER again. Having seen first hand what happens at a PFI organisation, I can categorically tell you it's a system that will not improve quality or efficiency, it will do the complete opposite.

[Daggers]

****ING TORY BITCH!

[Jon the Hat]

****ING TORY BITCH!

Brilliant idea. How the hell she has the cash to co found a private equity fund is the question.

[FoxyPV]

Brilliant idea. How the hell she has the cash to co found a private equity fund is the question.

She's a top barrister (a license to print money) and she is married to Tony, who wasn't short of a few bob before becoming PM.