Save the NHS

[21st Century Fox]

lolz.

You ever dealt with some of the management in the NHS?

I dread to think what role that they would be considered capable of doing in the Private Sector.

Most of them are poached from the Private Sector.

[Guest MattP]

Most of them are poached from the Private Sector.

Of course, the guys who we don't fight to keep.

[21st Century Fox]

Of course, the guys who we don't fight to keep.

Far from it.

[Jon the Hat]

Most of them are poached from the Private Sector.

I attended a team building session thing with a HR training guy who does a lot of work with the NHS... There is a fundamental difference in working style between your average NHS manager, and the people they are trying to manage. So management think they are acting reasonably, and the the medical and nursing staff thinks the are being treated appallingly. Even once this is pointed out, management tend to grudgingly consult and so on, but staff then see that as a pointless gesture to appease them so it gets worse. Cultural thing, very difficult to change.

And actually, they way you change it is to teach people to recognise other working styles, and see the other point of view. Which requires a level of intelligence not always available.

[Nick]

I'll be honest.

I do not know anything about the reforms to the NHS, so I can't comment.

In response to the OP, I VERY much doubt that people will have to pay for NHS treatment.

If the Conservatives put it forward then it's probably a good thing though.

Incredible.

[sphericalfox]

I'll be honest.

I do not know anything about the reforms to the NHS, so I can't comment.

In response to the OP, I VERY much doubt that people will have to pay for NHS treatment.

If the Conservatives put it forward then it's probably a good thing though.

Firstly everyone already does. I imagine due to your 24hr flossing and brushing regime you don't need to go to the dentist.

The fact that the Tories are putting more money is a pointless argument. Is the NHS devoid to the costs of inflation for drugs, equipment, and staffing for an ageing populous dependant on long-term care? It'll be nothing that a great deal of Conservatives sit on the boards and committees of companies and non-governmental organisations seeking to benefit from the mass-changes about to take place in National Health Service at all, yet want those who work within the NHS to find ways of trimming costs and finding a better way of efficiently saving money to pay these private companies to dismantle vital areas of the service for profit.

The Conservatives play the 'we want to keep the NHS...' but always leave the caveat out of 'we want to keep the NHS...so that we can profit from it's slow destruction, and make it irreversible to return to a non-private institution EVER again.'

[Daggers]

Things haven't been the same with the NHS since Hattie Jaques stopped being Matron

Nonsense.

It went downhill when James Robertson Justice resigned.

[Daggers]

That's correct - when I said the Tories had increased NHS spending I did actually mean they had made an £800,000,000 real terms cut as you so rightly pointed out.

As far as those objecting - there is a wealth of detail in the public domain aside from these Union officials you keep going on about. If you haven't accepted the numerous media sources thus far then you aren't going to pay attention to me linking to some of them...so I'll not bother.

[sphericalfox]

I attended a team building session thing with a HR training guy who does a lot of work with the NHS... There is a fundamental difference in working style between your average NHS manager, and the people they are trying to manage. So management think they are acting reasonably, and the the medical and nursing staff thinks the are being treated appallingly. Even once this is pointed out, management tend to grudgingly consult and so on, but staff then see that as a pointless gesture to appease them so it gets worse. Cultural thing, very difficult to change.

And actually, they way you change it is to teach people to recognise other working styles, and see the other point of view. Which requires a level of intelligence not always available.

No reflection on the capabilities of the HR consultant at all privately providing business to the NHS.

[ajthefox]

http://socialinvestigations.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/nhs-privatisation-compilation-of.html

Did someone say vested interests?

[sphericalfox]

How many Labour MPs are sponsored by health service unions?

Nobody says the Labour government didn't profiteer or are not profiteering from the NHS. A vile underbelly of politicians in every previous government and current have their eyes on the prize of future incentives from arse patters and back scratchers from every conceivable industry. Healthcare has been relatively untouched, if you discount the pharmaceutical industry's serious influence, but if the Tories have their way they'll revolutionise the concept of golden parachutes and consultant to the boards for the future of ACME Health Corporation.

[Zingari]

http://socialinvesti...ilation-of.html

Did someone say vested interests?

thanks for that

i've only just skimmed through it , but it's like they ( MPs ) don't give a fook what we think anymore .

it's as though every fookin snout has to be in every trough these days

[Jon the Hat]

http://socialinvesti...ilation-of.html

Did someone say vested interests?

Owning shares in Reckitt Benckiser? Are you having a laugh? Vodafone shares? Woo. Also makes no attempt to explain how owning shares in a pharmaceutcial company should make you favour privatisation? Just about evey company in the country must do some sort of business directly or indirectly with the NHS. What a load of shit.

[Daggers]

Just about evey company in the country must do some sort of business directly or indirectly with the NHS. What a load of shit.

You have been selected to be entered into today's "Totally made up and wholly unsupportable non-fact on the internet of the day" award!

The draw will be made at 5 O'clock and you will be notified by email if you are one of the lucky winners. Imagine, by 6 o'clock you could be luxuriating in a hot bath clutching you very own copy of the book your submission helped to make, 'What A Load Of Shit: A compendium of whopping great lumps of bullshit written on Internet forums' ISBN 69696969696 (available in no good bookstores).

[Bellend Sebastian]

Doesn't everyone sit on the boards of at least one private healthcare provider? I mean, I sit on so many I've actually lost count

[Jon the Hat]

You have been selected to be entered into today's "Totally made up and wholly unsupportable non-fact on the internet of the day" award!

The draw will be made at 5 O'clock and you will be notified by email if you are one of the lucky winners. Imagine, by 6 o'clock you could be luxuriating in a hot bath clutching you very own copy of the book your submission helped to make, 'What A Load Of Shit: A compendium of whopping great lumps of bullshit written on Internet forums' ISBN 69696969696 (available in no good bookstores).

You can just give me yours from yesterday.

My point is that while clearly some folks sitting on the board of actual healthcare providers is an issue - and declared just like the Labour lords being funded by healthcare unions - making out that every person who owns some shares in a company is going to vote in favour of the NHS reforms is nonsense. Likewise I am sure there are some Labour and Lib Dem types who who have done well enough in life to own a few shares in major companies.

[Zingari]

One of the best comments regarding that site and equally relevant here i believe ;

http://socialinvestigations.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/nhs-privatisation-compilation-of.html

"The article shows what a sick state our politicians are in. Some of comments show what a sick state our electorate are in. If people are unable to grasp that, politicians should have no conflict of interest when making important decisions on behalf of the people they are supposed to represent, then we really have a problem."

[Daggers]

You can just give me yours from yesterday.

Not a hope. I'm keeping every copy I've ever won in order to build an annex for my chicken house.

[Daggers]

The idea was to build a coop - but I discovered chickens are very right wing and preferred outright property ownership to a shared collective.

[Jon the Hat]

One of the best comments regarding that site and equally relevant here i believe ;

http://socialinvesti...ilation-of.html

"The article shows what a sick state our politicians are in. Some of comments show what a sick state our electorate are in. If people are unable to grasp that, politicians should have no conflict of interest when making important decisions on behalf of the people they are supposed to represent, then we really have a problem."

Ah Utopia. Where politicians are free of outside influence and base their voting decisions on..... What exactly? I am not disagreeing in principle, but this is a dream not reality. Every single person who voted had a reason to pick their side, picking out having in shares in a major FMCG healthcare product company and pointing at that, or even more silly Vodafone because of some report they did promoting their business, and calling it a conflict of interest is lame. Whoever wrote it cast their net too wide to have any credibility. Genuine points are lost in the mass of rubbish.

[Bellend Sebastian]

What a lovely story:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17447992

I imagine they're all happy because it's going to make the NHS brilliant. Not that any of these cvnts ever actually have to use it

[Parafox]

I'll be honest.

I do not know anything about the reforms to the NHS, so I can't comment.

In response to the OP, I VERY much doubt that people will have to pay for NHS treatment.

If the Conservatives put it forward then it's probably a good thing though.

[Daggers]

I already do pay substantially more Ni and Tax than I would doing exactly the same job in Sunderland say, because the market sets my pay level about 40% higher. Surrey receives one of the lowest central government subsidies for local government in the country and my Council tax is over £1500 on my two bed semi.

MPs should absolutely have regionalised salaries, or at the very least allowances for constituency staff.

You haven't addressed the point though, why should public sector salaries be fixed nationally? It makes no sense, and it makes it really hard for London and Surrey hospitals to find and retain good staff.

I've grabbed this out of the other thread for the benefit of people who don't read this thread

You might pay more but your wife doesn't - and she was the person you were comparing. I'm going to assume that she is a nurse/tech/admin person as I'm guessing you'd have said if she was a doctor. In Sunderland she would have no chance of being given a mortgage for £250,000 - she would be able to get a 2-bed terrace though in Pennywell, Hylton, Red House or another salubrious district on an NHS salary.

So why should that person be paid less? So that they would be unable to afford a 2-bed house on their own like your wife and every other low-paid NHS member of staff in the South East?

Teachers are paid to a national pay scale but there are outer London and inner London allowances - surely if you want your wife to have parity in affording a 2-bed property then the argument should be that a similar London weighting is applied to her salary? I have no problem with awarding allowances but the basic requirement is that all civil servants should receive a decent, liveable wage. Nurses in the North East are not living WAG lifestyles in 5-bed mansions and lounging by their personal pool.

When I worked as a rep I was on a salary that was identical to reps all over the country. Lorry drivers get paid the same scale, shop workers receive identical salaries in Asda Croydon as they do in Asda Scunthorpe. McDonalds staff get minimum wage - does that get increased in the South East? Honestly, is there an increase in minimum wage in your locality?

[Jon the Hat]

I've grabbed this out of the other thread for the benefit of people who don't read this thread

You might pay more but your wife doesn't - and she was the person you were comparing. I'm going to assume that she is a nurse/tech/admin person as I'm guessing you'd have said if she was a doctor. In Sunderland she would have no chance of being given a mortgage for £250,000 - she would be able to get a 2-bed terrace though in Pennywell, Hylton, Red House or another salubrious district on an NHS salary.

So why should that person be paid less? So that they would be unable to afford a 2-bed house on their own like your wife and every other low-paid NHS member of staff in the South East?

Teachers are paid to a national pay scale but there are outer London and inner London allowances - surely if you want your wife to have parity in affording a 2-bed property then the argument should be that a similar London weighting is applied to her salary? I have no problem with awarding allowances but the basic requirement is that all civil servants should receive a decent, liveable wage. Nurses in the North East are not living WAG lifestyles in 5-bed mansions and lounging by their personal pool.

When I worked as a rep I was on a salary that was identical to reps all over the country. Lorry drivers get paid the same scale, shop workers receive identical salaries in Asda Croydon as they do in Asda Scunthorpe. McDonalds staff get minimum wage - does that get increased in the South East? Honestly, is there an increase in minimum wage in your locality?

Where did I say someone in Sunderland should be paid less? I actually said they should be paid more in the South East. The weighting is also mandated and appears to bear no relationship to actual costs. No doubt the same problem applies to Teachers - not being able to live anywhere near schools they work at, and schools struggling to attract talent as a result.

In using myself as an example I was responding to your question about whether the residents of the South East were going to pay more tax to pay the higher wages I was suggesting - and people on average already pay more tax and NI because they on average earn more. Whichever way you look at it, the South east subsidises wages in other parts of the UK, in some cases with little justification.

Clearly if you talk about minimum wage that is a flat floor, but again that means people are disproportionately helped in cheaper areas. Likewise low paid retail and service jobs may not vary that much because they are impacted by the minimum wage floor more than market factors.

All that said, it does occur to be that some of the private / public sector average salary comparisons being used to justify this change don't take into account that most of the lowest paid public sector jobs have already been outsourced to the private sector to the likes of Serco, leaving mostly higher paid roles behind, thus skewing the comparative.

[I am Rod Hull]

I've grabbed this out of the other thread for the benefit of people who don't read this thread

You might pay more but your wife doesn't - and she was the person you were comparing. I'm going to assume that she is a nurse/tech/admin person as I'm guessing you'd have said if she was a doctor. In Sunderland she would have no chance of being given a mortgage for £250,000 - she would be able to get a 2-bed terrace though in Pennywell, Hylton, Red House or another salubrious district on an NHS salary.

So why should that person be paid less? So that they would be unable to afford a 2-bed house on their own like your wife and every other low-paid NHS member of staff in the South East?

Teachers are paid to a national pay scale but there are outer London and inner London allowances - surely if you want your wife to have parity in affording a 2-bed property then the argument should be that a similar London weighting is applied to her salary? I have no problem with awarding allowances but the basic requirement is that all civil servants should receive a decent, liveable wage. Nurses in the North East are not living WAG lifestyles in 5-bed mansions and lounging by their personal pool.

When I worked as a rep I was on a salary that was identical to reps all over the country. Lorry drivers get paid the same scale, shop workers receive identical salaries in Asda Croydon as they do in Asda Scunthorpe. McDonalds staff get minimum wage - does that get increased in the South East? Honestly, is there an increase in minimum wage in your locality?

The Mrs is from London way and she used to tell me about something called London weighting, I met her in 1991, she had a part time job at McDonalds while she was at college that paid more than other areas. London weighting was an extra few quid payed to folk in and around London because of higher living expenses (housing and fancy shoes).

Not sure if this still exists....