Remember Hillsborough

[davieG]

Amidst all the recriminations of a season of relative failure it's only a game.

BBC

Liverpool marks Hillsborough deaths with memorial services

Hillsborough became Britain's worst sporting disaster - 96 Liverpool fans were killedContinue reading the main story

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Memorial services are being held at Liverpool FC and at Liverpool Town Hall to mark the anniversary of the Hillsborough stadium disaster.

Ninety-six Liverpool fans died after being crushed at the Sheffield stadium on 15 April 1989.

Thousands of fans are expected to attend the ticket-only service at Anfield which starts at 14:45 BST.

Lord Mayor Frank Prendergast said the Town Hall ceremony is a chance "to come together and remember those who died".

At 15:06 BST - the time of the disaster 23 years ago - the bells at the Town Hall will ringing 96 times to commemorate each victim.

Mr Prendergast said: "It is an opportunity to come together and remember those who died and remind people that it can never be allowed to happen again."

Liverpool FC was given special dispensation to play the FA Cup semi-final against Everton on Saturday, rather than on the anniversary of the disaster.

[Guest Bilo]

Hoping the families of the victims one day get the justice they have fought for and deserve.

An absolute disgrace that many of the police whose incompetence led to the disaster have since retired on generous pensions, all without having to face up to what they did.

Of course, the pre-dominantly working class and northern Liverpool fans were never going to get a fair hearing in Thatcher's Britain.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Or that one day people will accept that this was a Liverpudlian tragedy caused by, as much as anything else, the people of Liverpool.

People trampled on other people to save their own sorry hides. Those that were being crushed and trampled could have been lifted up if the people around them had actually cared as much as they make a big show of today. Also, when there's patently no room, you don't keep pushing forward. These people weren't being pushed in, or herded by people threatening violence, they could have stood up for themselves and sorted it out.

I'm not saying the authorities were completely blameless, but it annoys me that Liverpool supporters point the fingers 100% at them and never consider the lemming-like actions of the day that they themselves did.

Tragic for more reasons than one.

[Ilkeston_Fox]

Hoping the families of the victims one day get the justice they have fought for and deserve.

An absolute disgrace that many of the police whose incompetence led to the disaster have since retired on generous pensions, all without having to face up to what they did.

Of course, the pre-dominantly working class and northern Liverpool fans were never going to get a fair hearing in Thatcher's Britain.

I don't wist to detract from the sentiments of the thread, and I respectfully remember them.

I have to ask though, is it not the fault of the fans trying to get in for free rather than the police's incompetence? I'm not naive enough to think that the police are faultless but I think the club and stewards could have done more to help the situation.

I've seen some footage of Hillsborough which was pretty graphic, police officers were giving mouth-to-mouth and trying to shift people to safety. How do and handful of officers shift thousands of fans? Is this their incompetence?

I'm not trying to be picky or anything, genuinely interested.

[davieG]

Or that one day people will accept that this was a Liverpudlian tragedy caused by, as much as anything else, the people of Liverpool.

People trampled on other people to save their own sorry hides. Those that were being crushed and trampled could have been lifted up if the people around them had actually cared as much as they make a big show of today. Also, when there's patently no room, you don't keep pushing forward. These people weren't being pushed in, or herded by people threatening violence, they could have stood up for themselves and sorted it out.

I'm not saying the authorities were completely blameless, but it annoys me that Liverpool supporters point the fingers 100% at them and never consider the lemming-like actions of the day that they themselves did.

Tragic for more reasons than one.

Like fans have a choice as to where they are herded in, since then I've been forced, with 1000s of other fans to go through narrow exits, even at the KP we're herded through a narrow passage outside the main stand where the team couch and parked cars get preference over the safety of fans exiting the ground

I don't wist to detract from the sentiments of the thread, and I respectfully remember them.

I have to ask though, is it not the fault of the fans trying to get in for free rather than the police's incompetence? I'm not naive enough to think that the police are faultless but I think the club and stewards could have done more to help the situation.

I've seen some footage of Hillsborough which was pretty graphic, police officers were giving mouth-to-mouth and trying to shift people to safety. How do and handful of officers shift thousands of fans? Is this their incompetence?

I'm not trying to be picky or anything, genuinely interested.

As I understand it they weren't trying to get in free the police panicked at the latish arrival of fans and opened the exit gates forcing them into an already crowded and fenced in area when they had no idea or control of the numbers entering a finite area.

[Trav Le Bleu]

I'm sorry, but nobody "made them do it".

I've been in rock concerts with thousands of people pushing from behind and I've seen people go down, but they've never been trampled, they've always been lifted up by the people around them, almost instantly. I've also people who have be too crushed lifted above heads and passed along. I've also seen the people who are being squashed at the front push back in union so that nobody gets squashed.

In short, people can control their actions and their surroundings; it's why we're human beings. Unfortunately on that day thousands of fans decided to be (and I'm gonna hazard a guess that copious amounts of alcohol might have had a hand in this) thoughtless as much as the authorities were guileless.

[davieG]

I'm sorry, but nobody "made them do it".

I've been in rock concerts with thousands of people pushing from behind and I've seen people go down, but they've never been trampled, they've always been lifted up by the people around them, almost instantly. I've also people who have be too crushed lifted above heads and passed along. I've also seen the people who are being squashed at the front push back in union so that nobody gets squashed.

In short, people can control their actions and their surroundings; it's why we're human beings. Unfortunately on that day thousands of fans decided to be (and I'm gonna hazard a guess that copious amounts of alcohol might have had a hand in this) thoughtless as much as the authorities were guileless.

But I'm guessing there wasn't many more people in the area than it was designed for so there would be 'natural' space in which to take evasive action, if you're unable to move because your body is totally hemmed in by other people and someone goes down the first instinct would be to stop yourself falling over and on top of that person that in itself was virtually impossible to because people were being squeezed and pushed from all sides to such an extent that they couldn't even lift there arms up.

It was a case of too many people being 'made' to go in area that it wasn't designed for with no exit points other than the way people came in and were still coming in.

[Ilkeston_Fox]

But I'm guessing there wasn't many more people in the area than it was designed for so there would be 'natural' space in which to take evasive action, if you're unable to move because your body is totally hemmed in by other people and someone goes down the first instinct would be to stop yourself falling over and on top of that person that in itself was virtually impossible to because people were being squeezed and pushed from all sides to such an extent that they couldn't even lift there arms up.

It was a case of too many people being 'made' to go in area that it wasn't designed for with no exit points other than the way people came in and were still coming in.

This is where my understanding of the events differs. I was under the impression that the police opened a gate to relieve some of the pressure, but because there were more people outside the stadium that couldn't get in, they saw the open door and rushed in thus causing more crushing. Perhaps I'm wrong, I've no idea, that's just how I thought it happened....

[Finnegan]

I just wish plastic Liverpool fans would just stop using it as excuse No. 35134 to get indignant and fuel their siege mentality.

It was a tragic loss of life but does it need to be dragged up every few ****ing months for some anniversary or another?

Funny how Heysel isn't given the same level of reverence. Alan Davies took a bit of a battering in the press for some comments that I was a little surprised never made an FT thread, essentially suggesting people should get the **** over Hillsborough. He wasn't being particularly directly disrespectful to the dead or their families and neither do I intend to be but I do agree.

[Webbo]

I just wish plastic Liverpool fans would just stop using it as excuse No. 35134 to get indignant and fuel their siege mentality.

It was a tragic loss of life but does it need to be dragged up every few ****ing months for some anniversary or another?

Funny how Heysel isn't given the same level of reverence. Alan Davies took a bit of a battering in the press for some comments that I was a little surprised never made an FT thread, essentially suggesting people should get the **** over Hillsborough. He wasn't being particularly directly disrespectful to the dead or their families and neither do I intend to be but I do agree.

I did consider starting one but I didn't want to give more fuel to the grief junkies.

[Finnegan]

I did consider starting one but I didn't want to give more fuel to the grief junkies.

I think we should now stand for a minute's applause.

We just missed Dunblane and the sinking of the Herald of Free Enterprise but we've got Piper Alpha's anniversary and the death of Di coming up if you can't wait til October for a good old clap over Aberfan.

[Guest Bilo]

http://hfdinfo.com/digital/

I'd strongly advise anyone interested by the Hillsborough disaster to read the link, it does explode the overwhelming majority of myths that still surround the event. A lot of them were very heavily publicised by the police, press and authorities to diminish their role in the tragedy.

Just to cut to the chase on a few of them.

Liverpool fans turned up late

SWFC's own admission count showed that 4593 of the 10100 in Leppings Lane had entered by 2:30pm.

Taylor (who wrote the Taylor Report) said that at 2:30pm, "more than 5000 fans were still awaiting admittance." He also concluded that the small area ahead of the turnstiles, of which there were an insufficient number, caused the congestion and therefore dismissed any conspiracy theory linked to a large number of late-arriving supporters.

Ticketless fans stormed the gates

Police Federation Officer Paul Middup, when interviewed by ITV, stated that "500 plus" were without tickets and were "hell-bent" on getting in.

Yet officers at the turnstiles denied there were a large number of ticketless supporters. SWFC's own admission system showed the terrace did not exceed its 10100 capacity. The Health and Safety Executive also conclusively proved there was no substance to Middup's allegations.

Taylor surmised that there was no substance to the allegation that ticketless fans caused the disaster.

Drunk fans caused the disaster

Officers sought to find evidence to support this theory by collecting information on the amount of alcohol purchased from pubs and off-licences in the area before kick-off. Police had already interviewed bereaved families, immediately after they had identified their loved ones' bodies, to ascertain how much alcohol each of the deceased had drunk before the game.

The allegation of drunken fans also seemed to influence the Sheffield Coroner, who inexplicably decided to take blood alcohol levels from every victim, including a ten-year-old boy.

Taylor considered the allegation but found drunkenness was not a contributing factor. Taylor said "The majority were not drunk or even the worse for drink," adding, "Seeking to rationalise their loss of control, overestimated the drunkenness in the crowd."

The Sun's allegations: "Some fans picked pockets of victims," Some fans urinated on the brave cops," and "Some fans beat up PC giving kiss of life."

This story was based on comments made by Irvine Patrick MP, the only Conservative MP in the area, and an unnamed police officer.

Patrick was not at the game to witness the events. Nevertheless, his comments were widely used.

While I do understand and agree with those who say that Hillsborough remembrance is overdone up to the point of mawkishness, it is an event that continues to affect the way football fans watch the game up to today. This is far more true of Hillsborough than the Munich air disaster or Heysel riot. It sounded the death knell for terracing in English football, something that Taylor himself agreed wasn't actually necessary. The government and game got the target wrong, the real cause was massive police incompetence that was shamefully covered up by all concerned afterwards. That and a culture of 'make-do-and-mend' that saw grounds like Hillsborough, whose safety certificate dated from 1979, used time and again for major games and fans seen as hooligans who needed to be controlled with their actual safety a very distant second.

[Webbo]

Drunk fans caused the disaster

Officers sought to find evidence to support this theory by collecting information on the amount of alcohol purchased from pubs and off-licences in the area before kick-off. Police had already interviewed bereaved families, immediately after they had identified their loved ones' bodies, to ascertain how much alcohol each of the deceased had drunk before the game.

The allegation of drunken fans also seemed to influence the Sheffield Coroner, who inexplicably decided to take blood alcohol levels from every victim, including a ten-year-old boy.

Nobody is saying the victims were drunk or to blame, they were the ones who turned up on time and got near the front. It was the arseholes who arrived late and pushed forward who caused the disaster.

[Guest Bilo]

Nobody is saying the victims were drunk or to blame, they were the ones who turned up on time and got near the front. It was the arseholes who arrived late and pushed forward who caused the disaster.

Have a read through the link in its entirety, there are a lot of myths surrounding what happened and they're pretty much all dealt with by the Taylor report and other sources.

[RedHux]

By half 2 the forest end was full. It wasn't like

The place was indeed crawling with drunk scousers asking for tickets.

They managed to get into the ground in an orderly fashion the year before.

The leppings lane end was a disaster waiting to happen.

The disaster was caused by a number of things all coming together in one glorious **** up. I find it distasteful that the liverpool fans cannot accept any portion of the blame and insist on this witchhunt every 6 months or so. There really is no dignity in it.

[acooling08]

It was just a load of scummy fans trying to get in for free. It is their fault, not the fault of the authorities or the Liverpool fans who had already paid and were inside the ground.

[RedHux]

I can't really stress enough that that end of the ground, as anyone who had been inside it will say, was an absolute deathtrap waiting to happen. The only really surprising thing is it didn't happen sooner.

I firmly believe it was the combination of unfortunate circumstances that caused it.

[wight88]

Would love to know the 'real reasons' behind Heysel as well, sure that was also a disaster waiting to happen, all the fault of the authorities and definitely none of those lovable happy-go-lucky scousers. Then again we are talking about Liverpool- the world owes them something apparently.

[ozleicester]

Wow, (at least) 96 innocent people are dead after going to watch their football team play, and people here are telling their loved ones and friends etc to "get over it" or "its their own fault". Hmm and i thought bankers were CVNTS.

The same people are here telling how horrific it is to be a Leicester fan after such a poor year.

Have a good look at yourselves, read the facts about that day, perhaps talk to friends or relatives of the VICTIMS!!! or at least try to imagine how you would feel as you watched someone next to you dieing at a football game.

Should be ashamed of yourselves!

[ozleicester]

It was just a load of scummy fans trying to get in for free. It is their fault, not the fault of the authorities or the Liverpool fans who had already paid and were inside the ground.

.

Edit i take it back, perhaps you are not a previously described, perhaps you are ill-informed or intellectually challenged. Either way, i would suggest you take the time to learn the facts about this tragedy.

[Guest MattP]

I'm sorry, but nobody "made them do it".

I've been in rock concerts with thousands of people pushing from behind and I've seen people go down, but they've never been trampled, they've always been lifted up by the people around them, almost instantly. I've also people who have be too crushed lifted above heads and passed along. I've also seen the people who are being squashed at the front push back in union so that nobody gets squashed.

In short, people can control their actions and their surroundings; it's why we're human beings. Unfortunately on that day thousands of fans decided to be (and I'm gonna hazard a guess that copious amounts of alcohol might have had a hand in this) thoughtless as much as the authorities were guileless.

Spot on. I knew two guys there and they both certain things mentioned in the Sun, not that anyone is allowed to repeat it now for fear of retribution.

It's just Liverpool all over, the whole world owes then a favour and we all have to participate as well.

[acooling08]

.

Edit i take it back, perhaps you are not a previously described, perhaps you are ill-informed or intellectually challenged. Either way, i would suggest you take the time to learn the facts about this tragedy.

You and I don't know the truth 100%, so stop being a condescending **** thinking your opinion is above everybody elses. I think that Liverpool fans trying to get in for free caused the crush, deal with it.

Liverpool fans have a history of scummy behavior. http://en.wikipedia....tadium_disaster

[Babylon]

Was thinking about Liverpool yesterday and how much I actually hate them now.

Their plastic fans, Andy Carroll's hair and Craig Bellamy's face. Kenny Dalglish who makes Ferguson look like Mr Happy. Their we can do no wrong and everyone is against us attitude. The grief junkies who weren't there, weren't born and probably haven't even been to Liverpool who latch onto a horrible tragedy like Hillsborough. And what seems like eternal grieving process dragged out in front of the whole nation. Their failure to grasp what Alan Davies was saying and the fact thousands of them wished "the cnut" death on twitter.

[Corky]

Was thinking about Liverpool yesterday and how much I actually hate them now.

Their plastic fans, Andy Carroll's hair and Craig Bellamy's face. Kenny Dalglish who makes Ferguson look like Mr Happy. Their we can do no wrong and everyone is against us attitude. The grief junkies who weren't there, weren't born and probably haven't even been to Liverpool who latch onto a horrible tragedy like Hillsborough. And what seems like eternal grieving process dragged out in front of the whole nation. Their failure to grasp what Alan Davies was saying and the fact thousands of them wished "the cnut" death on twitter.

Isn't that also contradicting themselves?

[Babylon]

Isn't that also contradicting themselves?

Well I thought so, grieve for someone you don't know or die... nice attitude.