Calls to radically change the tax system.

[Captain...]

How do you reconcile the fact that life expectancy - surely one of the most fundamental basic needs - has risen massively beyond anyone's wildest dreams in line with capatalism?

...and under capitalism we won the World Cup, can't get much more proof than that.

[MooseBreath]

...and under capitalism we won the World Cup, can't get much more proof than that.

So you think life expectancy increasing was just a bit of luck? Would have happened anyway? Decades of innovation and progress driven by capitalism had nothing to do with it? The fact that we now live more comfortable lives than ever before is just an irrelevant aside to you?

Because I think it's pretty fundamental.

[Daggers]

...and under capitalisma socialist government we won the World Cup, can't get much more proof than that.

[l444ry]

So you think life expectancy increasing was just a bit of luck? Would have happened anyway? Decades of innovation and progress driven by capitalism had nothing to do with it? The fact that we now live more comfortable lives than ever before is just an irrelevant aside to you?

Because I think it's pretty fundamental.

Have you included all the potato famine, slave trade and smokers Moose?

[Captain...]

So you think life expectancy increasing was just a bit of luck? Would have happened anyway? Decades of innovation and progress driven by capitalism had nothing to do with it? The fact that we now live more comfortable lives than ever before is just an irrelevant aside to you?

Because I think it's pretty fundamental.

Your thinking is that capitalism was the only to way to acheive that, life expectancy increased due to a number of factors, including better sanitation (a public service), better healthcare (a public service), benefits (a public service) not all scientific and meidcal breakthroughs were profit motivated and under any progressive system of economic policy our life expectancy would have increased.

I am not saying capitalism didn't play a significant role in our development as a nation and in increasing our life expectancy, but it is social policies which have had just as great an effect.

For example under true capitalism there would be no workers rights and trade unions, working conditions would be unsanitary and dangerous, all in the name of getting goods to market cheaper.

Capitalism has it's advantages, but it also has its drawbacks which need to be contained by implementing social policies. What I would like to see is a progresive social economic policy that is geared to encourage stability and innovation at the expense of "profit at all cost" business practices and huge inequalities in the distribution of wealth.

[Jon the Hat]

Your thinking is that capitalism was the only to way to acheive that, life expectancy increased due to a number of factors, including better sanitation (a public service), better healthcare (a public service), benefits (a public service) not all scientific and meidcal breakthroughs were profit motivated and under any progressive system of economic policy our life expectancy would have increased.

I am not saying capitalism didn't play a significant role in our development as a nation and in increasing our life expectancy, but it is social policies which have had just as great an effect.

For example under true capitalism there would be no workers rights and trade unions, working conditions would be unsanitary and dangerous, all in the name of getting goods to market cheaper.

Capitalism has it's advantages, but it also has its drawbacks which need to be contained by implementing social policies. What I would like to see is a progresive social economic policy that is geared to encourage stability and innovation at the expense of "profit at all cost" business practices and huge inequalities in the distribution of wealth.

A workforce is human capital, and competition for workforce also played a part in improving working conditions and pay. See China.

[Guest ttfn]

Your thinking is that capitalism was the only to way to acheive that, life expectancy increased due to a number of factors, including better sanitation (a public service), better healthcare (a public service), benefits (a public service) not all scientific and meidcal breakthroughs were profit

motivated and under any progressive system of economic policy our life expectancy would have increased.

I am not saying capitalism didn't play a

significant role in our development as a nation and in increasing our life expectancy, but it is social policies which have had just as great an

effect.

For example under true capitalism there would

be no workers rights and trade unions, working conditions would be unsanitary and dangerous, all in the name of getting goods to market

cheaper.

Capitalism has it's advantages, but it also has its

drawbacks which need to be contained by implementing social policies. What I would like to see is a progresive social economic policy that is

geared to encourage stability and innovation at the expense of "profit at all cost" business practices and huge inequalities in the distribution of wealth.

As much as I agree with lots of this, you seem to be veering towards an opinion that capitalism and socialism are mutually exclusive (correct me if I'm wrong).

I disagree with that premise. There's no reason why capitalism can't generate the funds required to implement progressive socialist reform.

[Captain...]

As much as I agree with lots of this, you seem to be veering towards an opinion that capitalism and socialism are mutually exclusive (correct me if I'm wrong).

I disagree with that premise. There's no reason why capitalism can't generate the funds required to implement progressive socialist reform.

No there isn't, that would be a step in the right direction, but I still think that the very basic tenant of capitalism, i.e. greed, is fundamentally wrong.

Unfortunately it may be the only current economic school of thought that could work because of the inherent greed that exists in all human beings, it is how we have survived and out stripped all other species, but is largely responsible for everything that is wrong in this world.

Greed, Corruption, Pride and Wellens.

[Captain...]

A workforce is human capital, and competition for workforce also played a part in improving working conditions and pay. See China.

See China for what?

I don't think China can be used as a an example for anything even if it's bastardised version of internal communism combined with external capitalsm has taken them forward, their questionable human rights practices mean that any progress they have made will be tainted.

[Guest]

And it depends on your criteria for success and progress.

If it's the number of satelite channels piad for but not watched per capita capitalism can be seen as a roaring success.

[21st Century Fox]

[Guest]

interesting but how can something be higher than at any time since the 1930's despite a recent drop?

[Webbo]

I think if you re-visit this discussion in 50 years you will see that Capitalism was as flawed as any other system. The West is crumbling under the debt and greed that true capitalism births. Most systems taken to their extreme implode because of the inherent weaknesses within them.

Capitalism hasn't caused that debt. That debt has been caused by social democracy from excessive spending on welfare and health. Desirable things they may be but the money doesn't appear out of fresh air.

[Webbo]

Those figures have got worse since the abolition of grammar schools which was done in the name of equality.

[l444ry]

Capitalism hasn't caused that debt. That debt has been caused by social democracy from excessive spending on welfare and health. Desirable things they may be but the money doesn't appear out of fresh air.

That's exactly where it comes from - fresh air. Banks have been conjuring up money for centuries based on loans and mortgages. It's called interest. Unless interest grows on trees of course!

[Webbo]

That's exactly where it comes from - fresh air. Banks have been conjuring up money for centuries based on loans and mortgages. It's called interest. Unless interest grows on trees of course!

And where does the money to pay the interest come from?

[l444ry]

And where does the money to pay the interest come from?

Printed no doubt! Think about it. If the population of the world is increasing the money needed needs to be increased as well. Welcome to the great worldwide banking scam!!

[Daggers]

Capitalism hasn't caused that debt.

Hmm.

[Jon the Hat]

See China for what?

I don't think China can be used as a an example for anything even if it's bastardised version of internal communism combined with external capitalsm has taken them forward, their questionable human rights practices mean that any progress they have made will be tainted.

Pay and working conditions across the developing world are increasing dramatically, as the workforce can now choose between employers. China is an example of this.

[Guest BlueBrett]

So it's a bad thing that if you make a success of yourself you have a better chance of setting up your kids? Isn't providing (material goods and opportunities) for one's family the most commonly cited motivation for getting out of bed and going to work every morning?

Also doesn't take genetics into account. Controversial but maybe a kid born to intelligent, hard working parents is more likely to possess those attributes whether through inheritance or instruction than one born to some failure with a chip on their shoulder.

I hate how people seem to think every statistic should read 50/50 these days and if it doesn't it has to be down to some despicable societal injustice.

[Captain...]

So it's a bad thing that if you make a success of yourself you have a better chance of setting up your kids? Isn't providing (material goods and opportunities) for one's family the most commonly cited motivation for getting out of bed and going to work every morning?

Also doesn't take genetics into account. Controversial but maybe a kid born to intelligent, hard working parents is more likely to possess those attributes whether through inheritance or instruction than one born to some failure with a chip on their shoulder.

I hate how people seem to think every statistic should read 50/50 these days and if it doesn't it has to be down to some despicable societal injustice.

Do you honestly believe that? Do you honestly think that the children of David Cameron are born equal to those of a simple mother on benefits? Of course family, money and influence comes into it. Is it such a bad thing that you can work hard and provide a better life for your kids? No. The problem is that some people can work themselves into the ground and still not be able to provide anything more than the basics for their children. The inequality is that families get trapped no the bottom sung of the ladder and see no way of getting off.

[Guest]

Also doesn't take genetics into account. Controversial but maybe a kid born to intelligent, hard working parents is more likely to possess those attributes whether through inheritance or instruction than one born to some failure with a chip on their shoulder.

Why does wealthy automatically relate to intelligent? Footballers are not really intelligent on the whole, Sexy actresses/models are not particularly intelligent on the whole, Maybe the money was inherited ...

and the final part of your quote is just very sad. If you weren't just pulling someone's chain there you have a problem.

[Jon the Hat]

Do you honestly believe that? Do you honestly think that the children of David Cameron are born equal to those of a simple mother on benefits? Of course family, money and influence comes into it. Is it such a bad thing that you can work hard and provide a better life for your kids? No. The problem is that some people can work themselves into the ground and still not be able to provide anything more than the basics for their children. The inequality is that families get trapped no the bottom sung of the ladder and see no way of getting off.

You are not wrong per se, but you ignore or choose to discount the fact that there has, is and will always be a bottom wrung of the ladder, and someone will always be on it. The fact that that bottom wrung has a dramatically higher standard of living than 60 years ago is also ignored by you and the stats you quote. That is not a reason to stop working on equality, but also not something to be ignored.

Personally I believe quite strongly that humanity achieves more by promoting the individual while supporting and developing the least able, than it does by attempting to deliver an equality agenda which stifles the overall through a misguided belief that any one of us is the same and will ever have the same capability, aspirations or opportunities.

[Captain...]

You are not wrong per se, but you ignore or choose to discount the fact that there has, is and will always be a bottom wrung of the ladder, and someone will always be on it. The fact that that bottom wrung has a dramatically higher standard of living than 60 years ago is also ignored by you and the stats you quote. That is not a reason to stop working on equality, but also not something to be ignored.

Personally I believe quite strongly that humanity achieves more by promoting the individual while supporting and developing the least able, than it does by attempting to deliver an equality agenda which stifles the overall through a misguided belief that any one of us is the same and will ever have the same capability, aspirations or opportunities.

They were not my stats, and I do appreciate that our poorest are some of the richest poorest in the world. I agree that there will always be a bottom sung but it should be made up of the workshy the feckless and the reckless.

At the moment we have a situation where honest hard working people are denied the chance to work due to a lack of jobs, because unskilled labour has been sent to other countries because it saves some money despite the ridiculous logistics of the whole process.

[stourbridgefox]

Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.

John Maynard Keynes

You tell 'em John!!