Calls to radically change the tax system.

[MooseBreath]

They were not my stats, and I do appreciate that our poorest are some of the richest poorest in the world. I agree that there will always be a bottom sung but it should be made up of the workshy the feckless and the reckless.

At the moment we have a situation where honest hard working people are denied the chance to work due to a lack of jobs, because unskilled labour has been sent to other countries because it saves some money despite the ridiculous logistics of the whole process.

Don't you think an honest hard working person who has only equipped himself with the ability to perform unskilled labour can be described as feckless?

We may not have the best level of social mobility in Europe, but there is certainly no barrier preventing anyone from upskilling themselves to keep up with demand.

Things change and if you don't adapt you get left behind. The only way to prevent people from getting left behind is to not go anywhere.

If we had it your way a few decades ago, this conversation here in 2012 would be taking place over the course of months on the wireless, with each of us sending a physical letter to the host in between 12 hour shifts in the coal mines. But at least we had jobs. Who needs progress.

[Zingari]

Don't you think an honest hard working person who has only equipped himself with the ability to perform unskilled labour can be described as feckless?

We may not have the best level of social mobility in Europe, but there is certainly no barrier preventing anyone from upskilling themselves to keep up with demand.

Things change and if you don't adapt you get left behind. The only way to prevent people from getting left behind is to not go anywhere.

Yes personally , I think an honest hard working person being described as feckless is very unfair.

Most of the really important stuff is done by the honest hard workers of society .

I really believe an honest dustbin man is more use than a dishonest estate agent .

[Captain...]

Don't you think an honest hard working person who has only equipped himself with the ability to perform unskilled labour can be described as feckless?

We may not have the best level of social mobility in Europe, but there is certainly no barrier preventing anyone from upskilling themselves to keep up with demand.

Things change and if you don't adapt you get left behind. The only way to prevent people from getting left behind is to not go anywhere.

If we had it your way a few decades ago, this conversation here in 2012 would be taking place over the course of months on the wireless, with each of us sending a physical letter to the host in between 12 hour shifts in the coal mines. But at least we had jobs. Who needs progress.

First thing is capitalism doesn't mean progress, which country put the first man in space capitalist America or communist USSR?

Capitalism stifles progress when there is no profit in it, look at the way capitalists have set about trying to destroy the freedom of information on the internet closing down file sharing sites because it is stopping them make grossly inflated profit on the back of someone else's talent.

If it wasn't for capitalism we would have electronic goods that last a lifetime, a cure for cancer and aids. Capitalism only encourages progress when the bottom line is positively affected, but if progress negatively affects the bottom line then it will not be taken even if it is for the greater good.

The simple truth is capitalism has guided up through years of progress but it has its flaws and has resulted in inequality in wealth and social mobility. We can accept this flawed system or we can look at how it can be improved, we can look at what a perfect society is and ask ourselves 2 things.

Will our current system get us there?

Will any other system get us closer than the current one we have?

[Jon the Hat]

Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.

John Maynard Keynes

You tell 'em John!!

I see your Keynes, and raise you Orwell.

As with the Christian religion, the worst advertisement for Socialism is its adherents.

George Orwell

[l444ry]

I see your Keynes, and raise you Orwell.

As with the Christian religion, the worst advertisement for Socialism is its adherents.

George Orwell

Orwell was a socialist Jon!!

[21st Century Fox]

"I have seen wonderful things and at last really believe in Socialism, which I never did before"

George Orwell

"For some years past I have managed to make the capitalist class pay me several pounds a week for writing books against capitalism. But I do not delude myself that this state of affairs is going to last forever ... the only régime which, in the long run, will dare to permit freedom of speech is a Socialist régime. If Fascism triumphs I am finished as a writer – that is to say, finished in my only effective capacity. That of itself would be a sufficient reason for joining a Socialist party"

George Orwell

[Jon the Hat]

Orwell was a socialist Jon!!

I know. Ironic isn't it? Even socialists realise that their main problem is themselves.

[l444ry]

I know. Ironic isn't it? Even socialists realise that their main problem is themselves.

Either that, or he was referring to the Soviets.

[Daggers]

You are not wrong per se, but you ignore or choose to discount the fact that there has, is and will always be a bottom wrung of the ladder, and someone will always be on it.

You are not wrong per se, but you choose to believe that there should be a ladder.

Scaffolding is miles better.

[Jon the Hat]

You are not wrong per se, but you choose to believe that there should be a ladder.

Scaffolding is miles better.

Can you build scaffolding without a ladder? Or climb it? I think not. I know your game, you already have a scaffold and are staying at the top and throwing rocks. You bastard.

p.s. you will be foxhunting next.

[The Doctor]

Can you build scaffolding without a ladder? Or climb it? I think not. I know your game, you already have a scaffold and are staying at the top and throwing rocks. You bastard.

p.s. you will be foxhunting next.

Reaching the top and throwing rocks at those below - when did Daggers become a tory?

[Daggers]

Reaching the top and throwing rocks at those below - when did Daggers become a tory?

I was born with a silver scaffold on wheels in my mouth

[Guest]

I was born with a silver scaffold on wheels in my mouth

Is that what your Dad said?

[Jon the Hat]

I was born with a silver scaffold on wheels in my mouth

We called that a brace in my part of the world.

These are the kind of medical developments only possible in a Capitalist world. My dentist has some very nice cars.

[stourbridgefox]

Not claiming to be an expert on George Orwell but his usual beef with socialists was their inability to reconcile minor differences between themselves to the benefit of their opponents.

This might be the reason for the quote.

[l444ry]

Not claiming to be an expert on George Orwell but his usual beef with socialists was their inability to reconcile minor differences between themselves to the benefit of their opponents.

This might be the reason for the quote.

The quote comes from The Road to Wigan Pier written in 1937. The full context is-:

I am making out a case for the sort of person who is in sympathy with the fundamental aims of Socialism, who has the brains to see that Socialism would ‘work’, but who in practice always takes to flight when Socialism is mentioned.

Question a person of this type, and you will often get the semi-frivolous answer: ‘I don’t object to Socialism, but I do object to Socialists.’ Logically it is a poor argument, but it carries weight with many people. As with the Christian religion, the worst advertisement for Socialism is its adherents.

He was referring to middle-class "socialists" who had very little connection with the working class, theoretical book trained "socialists" and "cranky" vegitarian types who were the more visible "socialists" of the day.

He goes on to say that these individual reasons to oppose socialism are superficial. Not a lot has changed today has it?

[Webbo]

The quote comes from The Road to Wigan Pier written in 1937. The full context is-:

I am making out a case for the sort of person who is in sympathy with the fundamental aims of Socialism, who has the brains to see that Socialism would ‘work’, but who in practice always takes to flight when Socialism is mentioned.

Question a person of this type, and you will often get the semi-frivolous answer: ‘I don’t object to Socialism, but I do object to Socialists.’ Logically it is a poor argument, but it carries weight with many people. As with the Christian religion, the worst advertisement for Socialism is its adherents.

He was referring to middle-class "socialists" who had very little connection with the working class, theoretical book trained "socialists" and "cranky" vegitarian types who were the more visible "socialists" of the day.

He goes on to say that these individual reasons to oppose socialism are superficial. Not a lot has changed today has it?

He was an old Etonian himself.

[l444ry]

He was an old Etonian himself.

Etonian or not, his credibility as a socialist thinker and theorist was due to him being a political loner and a writer who resisted the influence of the Communist Party in the ILP and who became an anti-Stalinist. This, in contrast to many socialist writers of the day.

[stourbridgefox]

The quote comes from The Road to Wigan Pier written in 1937. The full context is-:

I am making out a case for the sort of person who is in sympathy with the fundamental aims of Socialism, who has the brains to see that Socialism would ‘work’, but who in practice always takes to flight when Socialism is mentioned.

Question a person of this type, and you will often get the semi-frivolous answer: ‘I don’t object to Socialism, but I do object to Socialists.’ Logically it is a poor argument, but it carries weight with many people. As with the Christian religion, the worst advertisement for Socialism is its adherents.

He was referring to middle-class "socialists" who had very little connection with the working class, theoretical book trained "socialists" and "cranky" vegitarian types who were the more visible "socialists" of the day.

He goes on to say that these individual reasons to oppose socialism are superficial. Not a lot has changed today has it?

Thanks for the context and explanation.

My feelings are that if someone has self-awareness of their own privilege and is able to see and question inequality, even if they have benefited from the inequality, then that is righteous enough for me! (If that makes any sense)

This is much preferable to the self-congratulatory hyperbole which is usual from the privileged, such as the poor don't work hard enough, or have not made good decisions, or are genetically inferior!

Of course, the decision which makes anyone's life much easier is to have millionaire parents. Damn...why didn't I get this one right?