Should he be charged?

[skinnydipper]

Can't see a valid argument against due process myself.

[1964FOX]

Same problem with this case as many similar, only one adult account of what happened and the hardest part of it is how do you prove what the 'intent' was in someones mind at the time unless they openly admit the offence. As I said before this man knows what to say or has been told what to say.

[flowwolf]

If they believed the person that killed him.

I'm sure the police went into this more thoroughly than has been reported. The child's testimony for instance , the dead mans background ( did he have previous for this kind of thing ) the fathers character ect and eye witness accounts. the decision not to prosecute would not have been taken lightly. they would have taken in to account would it be in the public interest to have to name the child and her family and have her testimony read out in court ? And what would be the point of having a trial ? even if he was found guilty of manslaughter it would be on diminished grounds and no court in the land would jail a father for hitting a man caught in the act of sexually abusing his 4 year old daughter. And if not jail him what else could they have imposed on the father ? He already has to live with what happened for the rest of his life. My sympathy lies entirely with the father and if i were in the same situation I would have done exactly the same.

[flowwolf]

The evidence? What evidence?

Partially naked could mean he was without his top, you know. How do you know the girl didn't tear her clothes, and the other bloke had given her his top?

There's no info about the other kid. How do you know he didn't concoct some story to get the alleged pervert beaten up?

How do you know this father hasn't concocted a story to save himself from a murder charge?

I'm not saying nothing untoward has happened, but I can't jump to conclusions based on a limited set of "facts" that cannot be disproved.

It still doesn't justify beating someone to death. We're supposed to live in a civilised society.

One question Lisa if you came across a man sexually assaulting YOUR daughter just how " civilised " would you have behaved ?

As for evidence as this case never went to court we have no way of knowing exactly what was said and what was witnessed at the time. The police have obviously taken statements and witness accounts and acted on them accordingly . Sometimes it is not in the public interest to have to know all the details. The police have based their decision not to prosecute on what they know after gathering all the evidence, where as you go off into fantasy land of what could have happened like an amateur Agatha Christy.

[Guest]

One question Lisa if you came across a man sexually assaulting YOUR daughter just how " civilised " would you have behaved ?

As for evidence as this case never went to court we have no way of knowing exactly what was said and what was witnessed at the time. The police have obviously taken statements and witness accounts and acted on them accordingly . Sometimes it is not in the public interest to have to know all the details. The police have based their decision not to prosecute on what they know after gathering all the evidence, where as you go off into fantasy land of what could have happened like an amateur Agatha Christy.

I prefer to model myself on Miss Marple, a character from an Agatha Christie novel. No idea who this Christy woman is.

I am trying to make the point that things aren't always the way that they seem. I know things aren't always prosecuted, both here, and elsewhere in the world, due to insufficient evidence. But if you're willing to blindly accept what is published without questioning it, that's up to you. I prefer to know a little more about facts before calling one man a "hero" and another a "paedo".

As for what would I do, I don't have a daughter. If I did, my concern would be to take her as far away from such a person as possible. I would like to think I have the self-control not to kill someone, let alone beat them up. Even if I did, those actions are wrong, and not justified, even though understandable.

A question for you; what is wrong with thinking the law shouldn't be taken into your own hands?

[Trav Le Bleu]

Who's to say the father didn't want the alleged molester dead, killed him and stripped him?

Or maybe they had a drunken fight, didn't mean to kill him, but did, so he stripped him to make it look like there were extenuating circumstances?

The key point, which has been repeatedly pointed out by the sensible people in this forum, is that we only have the father's word for it.

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that people who are usually very descriminatory are totally indescriminate in their judgement of situations like this?

[Nick]

Who's to say the father didn't want the alleged molester dead, killed him and stripped him?

Or maybe they had a drunken fight, didn't mean to kill him, but did, so he stripped him to make it look like there were extenuating circumstances?

The key point, which has been repeatedly pointed out by the sensible people in this forum, is that we only have the father's word for it.

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that people who are usually very descriminatory are totally indescriminate in their judgement of situations like this?

Trav, I'm not sure it matters how many times you write it, the response will still be " Yeah but if it were my kid, I'd have done the same th........"

[Guest MattP]

Did he intend to kill, or did he intend to cause GBH? Was he reckless to that happening? Sorry, it's murder, in this country. He can argue manslaughter by means of provocation as an alternative, but at the end of the day, members of the public should not be allowed to act as judge, and jury. Relying on the evidence of someone whose story cannot be denied, contradicted, or proven sets a dangerous precedent. What if this guy had made a mistake? Imagine how you'd feel if you were giving a mate's young daughter a friendly cuddle and it was misconstrued? Do you support the right of your mate giving you a pasting on the basis of a misunderstanding?

Aside from the Huffington Posts political agenda, the fact it is happy to publish unsubstantiated stories really pisses me off. Almost as much as it pisses me off that people are quite happy to read what's reported and treat it as gospel, without questioning it.

Very well put but unfortunately emotion will always take over in a situation like that. (though I'd hope most men these days wouldnt be daft enough to take off their friends 4 year daughter to a secluded area, take off his shirt and give her a cuddle)

I realise retaliation is wrong in the main but if I walked in on that I would have killed him with my bare hands as well, it would take an incredible person to be able to just walk away call the police and wait after seeing that, in fact I don;t think a single person I have ever known or emt could do, I'd be even less likely to want to the Police and courts to handle it in this day and age where the likelihood is he'd get some pretty daft sentence anyway that could see him out doing the same in a few years.

Is it murder? By Law it probably is, good luck finding a jury who will convict a man on that though.

Good riddance.

[Guest MattP]

Partially naked could mean he was without his top, you know. How do you know the girl didn't tear her clothes, and the other bloke had given her his top?

Is this the sort of stuff put forward now in courts?

It's hardly Davis from 12 Angry men is it.

[Daggers]

I've no idea what the truth is in this case but I do know that you touch my children then you forsake the rights and privileges bestowed on the rest of society, I'll rip you seven pieces till Sunday.

[Nick]

I've no idea what the truth is in this case but I do know that you touch my children then you forsake the rights and privileges bestowed on the rest of society, I'll rip you seven pieces till Sunday.

Cracking expression - where does it come from?

[Daggers]

Cracking expression - where does it come from?

Who knows - because in my drug-addled head I don't remember things properly any longer

[Phube]

Suddenly had a thought:

This quality film:

[Smudge]

It seems that the case will now go to a Grand Jury and as I've implied the Jury usually follows the lead of the District Attorney. They have already implied that there is insufficient evidence to press for a charge of homicide.

I suspect that if the medical evidence shows that she was physically molested, the father did have the right to protect the child with whatever force if necessary.

I have another link to Bill Hemmer's interview which I think speaks to the likely outcome of this incident. I know it's Fox News but I have a lot of respect for this guy, used to be an anchor for CNN and was not afraid of asking awkward questions.

[flowwolf]

I prefer to model myself on Miss Marple, a character from an Agatha Christie novel. No idea who this Christy woman is.

I am trying to make the point that things aren't always the way that they seem. I know things aren't always prosecuted, both here, and elsewhere in the world, due to insufficient evidence. But if you're willing to blindly accept what is published without questioning it, that's up to you. I prefer to know a little more about facts before calling one man a "hero" and another a "paedo".

As for what would I do, I don't have a daughter. If I did, my concern would be to take her as far away from such a person as possible. I would like to think I have the self-control not to kill someone, let alone beat them up. Even if I did, those actions are wrong, and not justified, even though understandable.

A question for you; what is wrong with thinking the law shouldn't be taken into your own hands?

She lived at ten Rillington place till her old man put her to rest under the floor boards'

So you don't have a daughter , consequently you have no idea of the depth and strength of a fathers love for his daughter but you think it's alright to sit in judgement on some one who does.

You can apply your own morals and sit tut tutting at a situation that has nothing to do with you personally till it comes out of your ears, but in the real world most people have no real faith in the police or court systems , What if he had been caught sexually abusing that little girl and the father had done nothing but call the police ? Just for once it seems real justice was done and it appears the police agreed with it. End of.

[ozleicester]

She lived at ten Rillington place till her old man put her to rest under the floor boards'

So you don't have a daughter , consequently you have no idea of the depth and strength of a fathers love for his daughter but you think it's alright to sit in judgement on some one who does.

You can apply your own morals and sit tut tutting at a situation that has nothing to do with you personally till it comes out of your ears, but in the real world most people have no real faith in the police or court systems , What if he had been caught sexually abusing that little girl and the father had done nothing but call the police ? Just for once it seems real justice was done and it appears the police agreed with it. End of.

I have a daughter, the most precious thing in the world and if ( i can barely even dare to imagine such a thing) i found her being molested, I imagine i would react and the molesters life would probably brought to an end, or at least he would be permanently maimed...

HOWEVER....

i WOULD EXPECT TO BE CHARGED AND PUNISHED APPROPRIATELY FOR MY ACTIONS.

This consistent "what if it were your daughter" is just bollocks, a man is dead, killed by another man who may go unpunished.. JOKE!

People cannot go around killing other people and get away with it, the girl isnt dead... the (accused) Molester is DEAD... someones son is DEAD.

This vigilante bullsh!t is all bout wanna be tough guys telling the world they love their family more than anyone else... if you MURDER somebody, you should be punished.. end of!

[Rincewind]

As it says above you cannot go round killing people because you THINK they are doing something wrong. Maybe he never meant to go as far as he did. If somebody was in the room they could have stopped him going too far. Or maybe somebody was in the room and believed him as he was punching the bloke and thought that he deserved a good beating so did nothing and now he is taking full responsibility so as not to involve others. We do not know as there is not enough evidence either way.

[skinnydipper]

She lived at ten Rillington place till her old man put her to rest under the floor boards'

So you don't have a daughter , consequently you have no idea of the depth and strength of a fathers love for his daughter but you think it's alright to sit in judgement on some one who does.

You can apply your own morals and sit tut tutting at a situation that has nothing to do with you personally till it comes out of your ears, but in the real world most people have no real faith in the police or court systems , What if he had been caught sexually abusing that little girl and the father had done nothing but call the police ? Just for once it seems real justice was done and it appears the police agreed with it. End of.

#

This is one of the most flawed arguments one sees about the application of justice.

A more objective and the less emotional analysis is more likely to arrive at the truth

Whether a person is right or wrong to sit in judgement on another depends upon their own individual characteristics. Perhaps in the circumstances of this matter a person without children is better placed to form rational, considered judgement on the basis of all the information

[1964FOX]

Actually there is a right in English law to kill someone without any punishment in certain circumstances. It all comes down to the reasonable force argument and in some cases lethal force is deemed reasonable. Was the force used in the case in discussion reasonable? Can't answer that without all the facts and it's a different country.

[Rincewind]

And Texas. Different states in the USA have different laws. The response 'Have you got children?' displays the assumption of guilt on the dead man. He can not defend himself against the allegations Do you think his family are suddenly rushing to the killers defense?

The local sheriff did the right thing leaving it to others to investigate.

[Trav Le Bleu]

As it says above you cannot go round killing people because you THINK they are doing something wrong. Maybe he never meant to go as far as he did. If somebody was in the room they could have stopped him going too far. Or maybe somebody was in the room and believed him as he was punching the bloke and thought that he deserved a good beating so did nothing and now he is taking full responsibility so as not to involve others. We do not know as there is not enough evidence either way.

That's the crux of the matter, think, alleged, apparently.

It's getting to the point that you daren't return a child's smile for fear of having your lights punched out by their gorilla of a father.

When kids come to the door when I'm delivering a parcel, occasionally a parent comes storming to the door (usually half-dressed) and snatches the parcel whilst shooing the kid inside. It's the weirdest thing - they haven't got a single thought that maybe they're the problem?

[Guest MattP]

That's the crux of the matter, think, alleged, apparently.

It's getting to the point that you daren't return a child's smile for fear of having your lights punched out by their gorilla of a father.

When kids come to the door when I'm delivering a parcel, occasionally a parent comes storming to the door (usually half-dressed) and snatches the parcel whilst shooing the kid inside. It's the weirdest thing - they haven't got a single thought that maybe they're the problem?

Not really, just it's at the point where getting half naked in a secluded area and touching a kid inappropriately is viewed as not right. Let's not go over the top.

[skinnydipper]

That's the crux of the matter, think, alleged, apparently.

It's getting to the point that you daren't return a child's smile for fear of having your lights punched out by their gorilla of a father.

When kids come to the door when I'm delivering a parcel, occasionally a parent comes storming to the door (usually half-dressed) and snatches the parcel whilst shooing the kid inside. It's the weirdest thing - they haven't got a single thought that maybe they're the problem?

Maybe they're afraid of the logo on your T-shirt

[Trav Le Bleu]

Maybe they're afraid of the logo on your T-shirt

Damn Royal Mail for doing that!

[flowwolf]

#

This is one of the most flawed arguments one sees about the application of justice.

A more objective and the less emotional analysis is more likely to arrive at the truth

Whether a person is right or wrong to sit in judgement on another depends upon their own individual characteristics. Perhaps in the circumstances of this matter a person without children is better placed to form rational, considered judgement on the basis of all the information

Flawed or not if I caught someone sexually abusing my daughter do you really think I would stop to think about your sense of emotional analyses or if you thought it was right or wrong to take instant revenge ? not a fvcking chance. You don't have the right to judge it's not your daughter and you thankfully are not in that situation. So shove your rational and considered judgement until you are in that same situation, then and only then can you pass judgement on others.