France Shootings

[21st Century Fox]

Reports suggesting that a "potentially explosive substance" has been found at the victims house in Surrey, with Bomb Disposal officers making an assessment. Could be Sky jumping the gun or this case could get stranger.

[Captain...]

Nobody seems to have brought it up on here, but I read that they had fled Iraq and left a lot of business interests behind, and were planning to go back to reclaim it.

I don't know if that is relevant, but they are not your average British citizen, it may have been a political thing, or perpetrated by those who have their eyes on their business back in Iraq, I don't know, maybe it is all irrelevant, but it has the hallmarks of a professional hit, and these things don't happen for no reason.

Why did it happen while they were on holiday in France? Did they go to meet the killer believing him or her to be a friend or family member, or were they hunted and the opportunity presented itself there?

There really is a lot we don't know, if there are explosives at their house then this is some professional hit, lets get them in France, and if we can't then we will booby trap their home to get them when they get back.

Somebody wanted one of them dead, but why the need to kill the others?

[Mack]

Sky news must have seen the ratings rocket with this story because they've had half of their team on it since.

You don't get assassinated on a remote country lane for no reason.

Whether the bloke was a spy, had made enemies in Iraq or was involved in drugs or guns something has gone on.

I would sincerely hope however that he didn't bring all his family with him to some dodgy rendezvous in an attempt to look 'normal' or inconspicuous.

[Guest]

Reports suggesting that a "potentially explosive substance" has been found at the victims house in Surrey, with Bomb Disposal officers making an assessment. Could be Sky jumping the gun or this case could get stranger.

Sky are bound to be jumping the gun - they want to be the first media outlet with big news.

I just heard that the guy was an amateur radio enthusiast or repairer or something;

[Reynard Bleu]

In the absence of some real key facts, the void is filled with all sorts of whispers, theories and speculation. What we think we know now looks strange, but until its joined up we really know little of what really happened and why.

[21st Century Fox]

Considering the Bomb Disposal Unit has now left, I'd say Sky probably were jumping the gun and yet again sensationalising.

[Guest]

24 hour news is a great idea. Sadly filling those 24 hours is too often badly done.

A simplified version would be much better. The BBC ought to cut out the wasted money and show and just report news on their 24 hour channel going to the opposite extreme to SKY.

[Legend_in_blue]

This is all very odd.

25 shots made according to the reports now and the gun used holds 10.

Professional? Not convinced.

[Captain...]

This is all very odd.

25 shots made according to the reports now and the gun used holds 10.

Professional? Not convinced.

But how many of those were on the cyclist and daughter fleeing the scene.

A professional would be prepared have extra ammo clips or even 2 guns and be able to reload quickly.

Not sure why this means they are not a pro. You don't know if shots were fired to intimidate or even wound other family members in order to get information out of one f them.

[Daggers]

Think you'll find making drugs illegal does effect their usage.

Same with guns.

Think you'll find you just made that up...but I'd be delighted to see the evidence for it.

[Captain...]

Think you'll find you just made that up...but I'd be delighted to see the evidence for it.

Well he didn't say increase or decrease, and I very much doubt it stays the same.

[ADK]

I'm thinking comparing legal recreational drugs usage with illegal recreational drugs usage.

Also comparing gun ownership of guns that you can easily get a licence for with guns that it is hard to get a licence for.

If you want to to do some research then go for it.

[Daggers]

I'm thinking comparing legal recreational drugs usage with illegal recreational drugs usage.

Also comparing gun ownership of guns that you can easily get a licence for with guns that it is hard to get a licence for.

If you want to to do some research then go for it.

Thanks, but I'll leave your job to you.

[Jaspa]

The gun used was apparently a Scorpion sub-machine gun

25 Shots fired, but the mag only holds 20

People are now speculating it could be an Eastern European gang, specifically the Serbian Mafia that carried out the hit, simply from the fact of the gun used and apparent dodges that are around the area

Found these two quotes from another weird forum, the crazies are speculating like mad on this one

Approximated Timeline:

13:00: Family leave campsite in dark red BMW.

14.30-15:00: Witness (French builders) see dark red BMW drive up the alpine road.

15:43: ex-RAF cyclist overtaken by cyclist Sylvain Mollier; witnesses motorcycle and dark green 4×4 vehicle speed towards the scene.

15:43-15:48: Four victims shot within 30sec by two gunmen, each receiving two bullets to the head.

15:48: ex-RAF arrives at the scene.

15:48-15:58: ex-RAF: sees Sylvain Mollier lying dead; breaks drivers window, turns off engine; sees injured girl outside of car; puts girl in recovery position.

15:??: Witness swerves to avoid white Peugeot racing away from the scene.

15:58: ex-RAF called emergency services / Police first notified.

16:20: Police arrive at the scene.

23:00: Police notified of second girl.

23:59: Police open doors to find second girl hidden and alive.

Some sources differ on the time that ex-RAF calls emergency services, some say 15:48, others say 15:58/16:00. Not really too much problem here though as timeline calculated in reference to that event.

Immediate discrepancies:

- ex-RAF only reported seeing two vehicles speeding towards the scene, if the road leads to a dead end, then he must have seen each vehicle speed away from the scene also, before he arrived at it.

- What was ex-RAF’s reasoning for turning off the engine first (or at all)? Surely first priority would be checking on the occupants of the vehicle (through fully broken out window in rear left).

- Why it took 10 minutes before he reportedly called emergency services? Is this incorrect reporting?

- Why was girl outside of the locked car? Were all doors in fact locked?

- Was the dark green 4×4 and white Peugeot actually the same vehicle, just differing accounts?

Further discussion:

- Two bullets in each head indicates professional killing.

- Mass bloodshed generally avoided unless perpetrators intending to send clear message to others.

- Professional killing involves extended surveillance and intelligence collection. Fact that child hidden in the car indicates that: 1) gunmen knew there was another child in the car but didn’t kill her or 2) gunmen were oblivious to this fact. If 2), then this indicates sloppy surveillance and probably not state-sponsored or botched job.

- Fact that child shot in right shoulder (away from vital organs) and pistol-whipped indicates to me that she was deliberately not killed. If the gunmen wanted her dead they would have done so. Was she shot in the crossfire?

- Did gunmen intend to cause memory loss by striking her head violently? Did they know that the 4-year old wouldn’t be treated as a reliable witness?

- Did the gunmen know that the second cyclist would only be minutes away, why not kill him too and buy more time to escape smoothly?

Vehicles

If it was a lone gunman, then likely that he was just on a motorcycle. Why? Motorcycle provides ability to go across the 2.5km non-paved track that links on to the route leading to Swiss border => perfect escape route.

But what caused the car to violently reverse into the embankment? Would a motorcyclist pointing a gun at one's car make one want to reverse or drive at him/his motorcycle? Or was Saad al-Hilli so frantic that he accidentally put it in reverse instead of drive?

If the road was blocked with a bigger vehicle (i.e. a 4x4) then one would have no choice but to reverse.

Position of Victims

Per this graphic.

The position of Mollier is most curious. How did he manage to get so close to the vehicle before being shot?

Did Mollier arrive during the shooting or just prior? If he arrived during, then I would expect that he would have been spotted before he got so close to the car and been shot some distance away. If he had arrived prior he could have been talking to al-Hilli through the drivers window and upon seeing gunman tried to escape- being shot in the process.

Another possibility is that Mollier did arrive during the shooting, was shot 5 times at long/mid-range (to centre of mass) and his momemtum carried him closer to the car where he collapsed on the ground; at which point the gunman put 2 further bullets in his head.

I think the 7-year old was seated in the front passenger seat and the 4-year old would be seated between the grandmother and mother in the back of the car / on the knee.

First priority of gunman would have been taking out Saad al-Hilli (as driver of BMW) and depending on what side of the vehicle the gunman approached, he may not have wanted to step in front of it while Saad was still alive in fear of being run over. It is possible that he

initially disabled Saad from the front passenger-side window, shooting across the 7 year old

she leans forward-left to try and get out of the car and is shot in the right shoulder

gunman then shoots and disables both mother and grandmother from back-left passenger window (excessive gunfire explains blasted out window)

goes around to drivers-side window to put two bullets in Saad al-Hilli's head

7-year old now gets out of the front passenger seat and tries to escape

gunman grabs her, strikes her violently and then escapes himself.

ex-RAF

If we accept that ex-RAF saw either a motorcycle, 4x4 or both go past him towards the scene and that the gunman resided in one of the two vehicles then we should reasonably assume that the gunman knew that ex-RAF would be at the scene within a matter of minutes.

If ex-RAF was a British operative (so-called "handler", "protection" etc) then why would the adversary spare him? Did the adversary not know that he was a British operative (through poor surveillance/intelligence gathering)? Did the adversary deliberately leave him unharmed?

[Guest]

Nothing on this for a couple of weeks.

Locals from near the lake that I know say there's links to Iran which is why there's no news.

Find that a stretch . Anything over there on it?

[AoWW]

Nothing on this for a couple of weeks.

Locals from near the lake that I know say there's links to Iran which is why there's no news.

Find that a stretch . Anything over there on it?

Not that I've heard - it seems to have gone spookily quiet.

[Daggers]

Quite clearly, this is the work of Jimmy Saville.

[grth2004]

Nothing on this for a couple of weeks.

Locals from near the lake that I know say there's links to Iran which is why there's no news.

Find that a stretch . Anything over there on it?

find it strange theres been no news on this for two weeks , such i high profile case and nothing , we will probably never know the truth ,

[LJS]

Quite clearly, this is the work of Jimmy Saville.

The killer did let the little girl live, now you mention it.

[Orkneyfox]

as for why did he (RAF) switch off the engine, two reasons, to get some quiet and to hear, and to avoid fire explosion risk.

[Daggers]

The killer did let the little girl live, now you mention it.

I'll set 'em up...

[AoWW]

Has there been any more news about these shootings that I've missed? It all seems to have gone eerily quiet.

[Guest MattP]

I was thinking the same about April Jones.

Jimmy Saville came on and we seemed to all forget.

[Guest]

Has there been any more news about these shootings that I've missed? It all seems to have gone eerily quiet.

Absolutely nothing.

Very strange.

[ADK]

Well maybe there isn't much more to say?