Leicester Teenager admits burgling 278 homes and stealing 60 cars

[Captain...]

Sorry mon capitaine, but despite your rather bland assurances, many victims get no support from the police, cannot afford insurance and cannot 'put it behind them'. I do not see them getting help at all.

I was not specific in my post quite deliberately, I do not know the circumstances of the individual that carried out these robberies so tried to be more general in my observations.

I said quite clearly that I am happy to give people a chance, but if this chance is not taken then prison is currently the only option, you can't burgle peoples homes if you are locked up!

As for whether jailing one person makes a difference, I disagree and so most probably do the dozens of people whose homes would be violated if he was not locked up for 2-4 years.

Burglary and housebreaking is not taken seriously in this country, punishment is so modest that it is simply a 'lifestyle' option for some, and that is not right whatever their 'circumstances'.

This is what I don't understand, he has been caught and locked up, you may think 2-4 years is light, I don't, I couldn't put a price on a year of my liberty, I don't think he has got off lightly, I think he has been sentenced correctly in accordance with the law.

It is a shame he wasn't caught earlier, the earlier you catch the greater the chance of completely successful rehabilitation, but I don't see the wisdom in sentencing him to a greater punishment due to the police's inability to catch him.

I don't think it is taken lightly, but unfortunately, it is a very difficult crime to prove unless caught in the act, we had forensics round and they wore woollen gloves, and there was no evidence what so ever.

I think that people who do take it lightly are people who haven't been burgled, like we hadn't, and don't have sufficient security, such as an alarm, or take basic precautions, such as drawing all the curtains, making sure keys are not on display, leaving a light on, or getting a light timer, or even keeping sheds locked and tools securely stored, they got into ours, by taking a tool from our neighbours shed and smashing a window. They were just opportunists who were scouting through backgardens and if they hadn't found anything to break the window would have moved on.

There is also a lack of community these days, the 2 incidents on my parent's street has got them back together and having neighbourhood watch meetings, and arranging to keep an eye on each others houses while away.

I can't comment on any of the victims in the case, but 90% of all burglaries could have been prevented, the fact he was able to commit so many from such a young age shows how easy it can be.

[21st Century Fox]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2009370/Police-fear-recession-crimewave-burglaries-muggings-soar.html

[ithuriel]

You get a crime number and thats it, then you are forgotten.

I was burgled once, two attempted as well.

My mothers house was burgled and torched.

One attempted mugging to add to my idea of these poor under priveleged poeple, except i was poor and under priveleged etc., as a kid and had an awful lot of shit to put up with which i'm not going any further into so do not ask bar the fact i suffer from depression and occasionally severe lack of confidence but i have never felt the need to rob other poeple.

I just can not show these poeple compassion.

[Captain...]

What?

You seem to imply that it's the unemployed and those claiming welfare benefits that go out and commit crime? Well I know lots of unemployed people who claim benefits who don't go out and commit crime. What figures do you have to back up this sweeping statement?

If inequality leads to crime, why is it that only some under priveliged people will commit crime, whilst others CHOOSE to lead adaptive lives?

It could be that the criminal justice system has led to an increase in crime: pathetic sentences, ASBOS and a Police Force so swamped in bureaucracy, red tape and political correctness that its become ever more difficult for them to do their jobs. And now, cutbacks of course, in the name of 'cost efficiency savings'.

Your posts increasingly come across like a Political Broadcast by the Raving Socialist Party.

Unless your gay of course, then you appear happy to make 'jokes' at will.

Confusing...

That is getting on to a whole other argument about social decline in modern Britain, the comment was about unemployed and a lack of support services, by that I mean the unemployed who are getting no help, getting no benefits, and getting no support from the state, people that fall through the system and have no alternative but a life of crime.

But feel free to misrepresent the last line in a long post, to try and change the subject.

Not going to disagree that police force could also do with vast improvements, along with social welfare and crime prevention measures.

Again though, that is another topic.

(also stop cross pollinating the threads, my joke in the other one was a throw comment to add a bit of humour)

[Captain...]

You get a crime number and thats it, then you are forgotten.

I was burgled once, two attempted as well.

My mothers house was burgled and torched.

One attempted mugging to add to my idea of these poor under priveleged poeple, except i was poor and under priveleged etc., as a kid and had an awful lot of shit to put up with which i'm not going any further into so do not ask bar the fact i suffer from depression and occasionally severe lack of confidence but i have never felt the need to rob other poeple.

I just can not show these poeple compassion.

Most people don't feel the need to rob others, they do it, in the main, out of desperation. There are exceptions, hich was discussed briefly with talk of psychopathic behavioural traits, but it was largely ignored.

[marbelladave]

Sorry mon capitaine, I really can't follow your arguments.

Once again you appear to be blaming the victims, '90% of all burglaries could have been prevented', virtually absolves the perpetrators of all blame.

The reality is that the criminals have taken a clear decision to commit burglary in the clear knowledge that it is an offence and in many cases hugely damaging to the victims. In some cases 'f**king up' the victims is part of the intent, I am prepared to see help offered to (mainly) young people who perhaps do not understand what they are doing, but grown ups making those sorts of decisions deserve contempt and not compassion.

[ithuriel]

Most people don't feel the need to rob others, they do it, in the main, out of desperation. There are exceptions, hich was discussed briefly with talk of psychopathic behavioural traits, but it was largely ignored.

When i was younger i hung around with poeple who have burgled houses etc., in the past and i never knew any of them that were desperate, it was a buzz to them, exciting more than the chance to make money.

From my experience i'd have to say most do not need to burgle to get by and they do not descriminate about who they target, who ever is easiest, if they know you are on holiday etc.,

Of course when they are caught it is all down to what ever excuses fit and you may get a minority that really are desperate but most?sorry i do not buy that.

[James.]

I completely agree with Shrapnel in the main but one area I don't think has been covered is around preventative measures that should be invested in BEFORE the crime is committed. So far the debate has largely focussed on reactive actions such as rehabilitation and prison. What we really need to do is to prevent kids like this entering into crime in the first place.

It's a compex issue with roots in family, community and opportunity but when you think that funding for youth projects is being cut drastically is it any wonder that young people with so little choice turn to crime. I'm wary of using personal experience to make a general point but my partner was a youth project manager in inner city London for a number of years and from her experiences I can guarantee that if you invest more money in grass roots projects that get young people into employment, training or education then you wil be tackling the issue at the very root.

So much more needs to be done in terms of supporting community based organisations like the one my partner worked for to give disenfranchised young people the opportunities they deserve.

[Guest Col city fan]

When i was younger i hung around with poeple who have burgled houses etc., in the past and i never knew any of them that were desperate, it was a buzz to them, exciting more than the chance to make money.

From my experience i'd have to say most do not need to burgle to get by and they do not descriminate about who they target, who ever is easiest, if they know you are on holiday etc.,

Of course when they are caught it is all down to what ever excuses fit and you may get a minority that really are desperate but most?sorry i do not buy that.

Nor do I pal, nor do I..

[Reynard Bleu]

When i was younger i hung around with poeple who have burgled houses etc., in the past and i never knew any of them that were desperate, it was a buzz to them, exciting more than the chance to make money.

From my experience i'd have to say most do not need to burgle to get by and they do not descriminate about who they target, who ever is easiest, if they know you are on holiday etc.,

Of course when they are caught it is all down to what ever excuses fit and you may get a minority that really are desperate but most?sorry i do not buy that.

I don't buy the desperation theory either, unless you count the addicts that are so desperate for a fix that they will rob anyone and anything to raise the money to buy one. Plenty of mighty intellects have pondered the whys and wherefore's and they tell us its a complex web of this and that. People steal because they can, they want they take. They know what's right and what's wrong but they chose to ignore that. They may be hard up they may not be, they may not have a job, they may come from a broken home, their old man might be a thief, they may live amongst theives, but its their choice. They can do something else if they wanted to. They chose to rob and steal despite knowing its wrong.

[Zingari]

I don't buy the desperation theory either, unless you count the addicts that are so desperate for a fix that they will rob anyone and anything to raise the money to buy one. Plenty of mighty intellects have pondered the whys and wherefore's and they tell us its a complex web of this and that. People steal because they can, they want they take. They know what's right and what's wrong but they chose to ignore that. They may be hard up they may not be, they may not have a job, they may come from a broken home, their old man might be a thief, they may live amongst theives, but its their choice. They can do something else if they wanted to. They chose to rob and steal despite knowing its wrong.

I’m tending to agree more and more with this . I think it’s fookin ridiculous to keep portraying burglars and thieves as pitiful desperadoes who are just trying to get food to live etc or as sad victims of drug or alcohol.

[Captain...]

Sorry mon capitaine, I really can't follow your arguments.

Once again you appear to be blaming the victims, '90% of all burglaries could have been prevented', virtually absolves the perpetrators of all blame.

The reality is that the criminals have taken a clear decision to commit burglary in the clear knowledge that it is an offence and in many cases hugely damaging to the victims. In some cases 'f**king up' the victims is part of the intent, I am prepared to see help offered to (mainly) young people who perhaps do not understand what they are doing, but grown ups making those sorts of decisions deserve contempt and not compassion.

I am not blaming the victims, where did I say that, but it can often be prevented by taking simple precautions, don't make it easy on criminals. If you leave a laptop on display in your car, it is not your fault that someone smashes the window and grabs it and it is still very much a crime, but by not taking simple precautions, which we don't always do, you can make things very easy on thieves.

The main reason I brought it up was because it was the advice given to us by the police, and hoping that some people on here might read it, and think, "oh I never bother to lock up my tools at night, maybe I should." or "The car keys are visible from the kitchen the window, maybe I should keep them somewhere else".

There is no blame on the victims here, but we should all be aware how to reduce the risk of being another statistic.

[Captain...]

I’m tending to agree more and more with this . I think it’s fookin ridiculous to keep portraying burglars and thieves as pitiful desperadoes who are just trying to get food to live etc or as sad victims of drug or alcohol.

Some are some aren't, there are many reasons why people turn to a life of crime; drugs, desperation and the thrills are just 3.

There is a correlation between increasing poverty and unemployment and crime levels, and I do believe that in almost all cases they can be helped and rehabilitated, and not locked up and have the key thrown away.

[Reynard Bleu]

Some are some aren't, there are many reasons why people turn to a life of crime; drugs, desperation and the thrills are just 3.

There is a correlation between increasing poverty and unemployment and crime levels, and I do believe that in almost all cases they can be helped and rehabilitated, and not locked up and have the key thrown away.

How may chances to rehabilitate do we give them 1, 2, 10?

I just can't believe that there are very many burglars who steal in order to put food on the table, and even if they do they still know its wrong and that it carries a consequence.

[Captain...]

How may chances to rehabilitate do we give them 1, 2, 10?

I just can't believe that there are very many burglars who steal in order to put food on the table, and even if they do they still know its wrong and that it carries a consequence.

Well in the case of the original post we give him at least 1 chance before we lock him up and throw away the key.

If he started when he was 12 you can be fairly certain he probably didn't have a decent upbringing and family life, so yeah I would give him a chance that maybe he never had due to being born into a bad family.

I am not sure that I would advocate a 3 strikes and your out rule that they have in the states as I do believe that everyone is capable of change, but obviously if after being given a chance he reverts back to a life of crime then I would expect a harsher sentence to be given.

I will just reiterate here, that I have no issue with the sentence given, nor how the police have dealt with this guy, my issue is with those who believe he should be locked up and have the key thrown away.

[Zingari]

Some are some aren't, there are many reasons why people turn to a life of crime; drugs, desperation and the thrills are just 3.

There is a correlation between increasing poverty and unemployment and crime levels, and I do believe that in almost all cases they can be helped and rehabilitated, and not locked up and have the key thrown away.

Correlation does not imply causation though .

i've waited ages to use this in a debate

[Guest Col city fan]

Well in the case of the original post we give him at least 1 chance before we lock him up and throw away the key.

If he started when he was 12 you can be fairly certain he probably didn't have a decent upbringing and family life, so yeah I would give him a chance that maybe he never had due to being born into a bad family.

I am not sure that I would advocate a 3 strikes and your out rule that they have in the states as I do believe that everyone is capable of change, but obviously if after being given a chance he reverts back to a life of crime then I would expect a harsher sentence to be given.

I will just reiterate here, that I have no issue with the sentence given, nor how the police have dealt with this guy, my issue is with those who believe he should be locked up and have the key thrown away.

Well I gotta hand it to you you've never backed down on this one. Do you not think that 'locking up and throwing away the key' could have been said metaphorically? You use this as the basis of most of your arguments. I'm not advocating life for this young man, (of course such offences would not warrant such a tariff), but a lengthy jail sentence, primarily for the greater good.

You seem to want to take the role of the compassionate humanitarian in this debate. Good for you (I mean that and don't say it sarcastically). Not everyone concurs with you on this philosophically, nor in terms of some of the ideas you have suggested.

People don't have to be uncaring or not compassionate because they believe other measures may be better put in place to deal with this and similar crimes. Some people will be just as concerned for the victims as the perpetrators if not moreso.

Anyway, this could go on for ever I guess so ill stop now.

[davieG]

Or how vulnerable some people leave their house. Windows open, porch/conservatory door unlocked, no alarm/not activating the alarm, leaving the house keys right by the door, leaving the car keys right by the door (the little oiks will have a hook on a pole and collect said keys through letterboxes).

Or how busy police officers already are, whose workload is only set to increase when the 20% cuts take affect. I realise this is of no significance to you as the public, but they aren't miracle workers, if you don't start looking out for yourselves how can the police do the same?

Having said all of that, the little turdbags will still try and get in by forcing doors/windows, having a dog is a great deterrent, sounds daft but they are probably the best weapon against burglary.

Well it's not that simple is it to just lock the doors and windows

A quarter of all burglaries in West Yorkshire are being committed by criminals using a technique called "lock snapping", police have revealed.

Since 2009, there has been a rise in the technique, which involves applying force and snapping the cylinder in two.

West Yorkshire Police said it was mainly prevalent with euro cylinder locks and urged concerned residents to seek crime prevention advice.

Ex-burglar Peter Findlay said snapping the lock was "simpler and quicker".

Mr Findlay, who now works with police to help them with crime prevention tactics, told the BBC's Inside Out programme: "If I had the best lock picks in England I wouldn't bother using them, I'd just snap the lock."

'Vulnerable' locks

Police said the technique first emerged in Bradford a couple of years ago and now accounted for more than a quarter of all burglaries across the force area.

Figures for December show that 27% of all burglaries across the county involved lock snapping on euro cylinders.

Euro cylinder locks are fitted to millions of properties, usually UPVC and other double glazed doors.

Ch Supt Paul Money, from West Yorkshire Police, said: "These locks are vulnerable to this type of attack but it can take between 50 seconds and two minutes to force the lock.

"It you're unsure about the standard and quality of your locks, contact your local crime reduction officer who will provide advice free of charge or contact some of the not for profit organisations of which there are a number in West Yorkshire."

The Association of Chief Police Officers are working with the door and lock industry to come up with a new British standard for locks.

Mr Money said: "What we want to do is ensure that the new British standard locks are a lot stronger and can resist attack.

"I wouldn't want to put a specific time frame on it but currently the testing is extensive and the new locks are now in the process of being tested."

Neil Goldup, managing director of security organisation Community Action and Support Against Crime (CASAC), said: "My one wish would be to get rid of these cylinders."

Oh and I've just found out my house contents insurance is void because I do not have the required locks on my patio and back door, I simply cannot afford the nigh on £1500 it would cost to replace them. So what do I do go without insurance and risk being burgled or borrow £1500 to pay for replacement doors?

[Webbo]

It's my opinion, for what it's worth, that crime causes poverty, not the other way around.

[Captain...]

Well it's not that simple is it to just lock the doors and windows

Oh and I've just found out my house contents insurance is void because I do not have the required locks on my patio and back door, I simply cannot afford the nigh on £1500 it would cost to replace them. So what do I do go without insurance and risk being burgled or borrow £1500 to pay for replacement doors?

In our case they just smashed the window, even quicker to get in, it was at about 6pm nobody heard anything or came to investigate.

[Guest MattP]

It's my opinion, for what it's worth, that crime causes poverty, not the other way around.

Should be stated as well that crime and poverty only really relate to each other first world countries as well.

Plenty of places are full of poverty and have extremely low crime rates, Cuba and Sri Lanka stood out to me as places where the people had complete dignity and pride in themselves despite their surroundings.

That said, some of the stuff I've seen I wouldn't really describe anyone in this country as being "in poverty" - it's quite frankly an insult to the word and the people who try and get through the day with a bowl of rice and a glass of water.

[Captain...]

Well I gotta hand it to you you've never backed down on this one. Do you not think that 'locking up and throwing away the key' could have been said metaphorically? You use this as the basis of most of your arguments. I'm not advocating life for this young man, (of course such offences would not warrant such a tariff), but a lengthy jail sentence, primarily for the greater good.

You seem to want to take the role of the compassionate humanitarian in this debate. Good for you (I mean that and don't say it sarcastically). Not everyone concurs with you on this philosophically, nor in terms of some of the ideas you have suggested.

People don't have to be uncaring or not compassionate because they believe other measures may be better put in place to deal with this and similar crimes. Some people will be just as concerned for the victims as the perpetrators if not moreso.

Anyway, this could go on for ever I guess so ill stop now.

OK Col, just one last question. On what are you basing your desire for a stricter sentence? I have no problem with the sentence laid down by the judge, why do you think he should be put away longer?

[Guest Col city fan]

OK Col, just one last question. On what are you basing your desire for a stricter sentence? I have no problem with the sentence laid down by the judge, why do you think he should be put away longer?

I have no idea about sentencing laws Shrap of course. But a four year sentence would mean what in old money? 2/3 years at most I would suspect. There or thereabouts?

I don't think this is a punishment which would fit this crime? And I guess that's my general view. Are sentences long enough in themselves and of themselves to put people off a life of crime? And is prison sufficiently horrendous to make people think they really don't want to go back?

I dunno.... And I don't claim to be some sort of expert on this, just a layman reacting to an article.

Over and out..

[Captain...]

I have no idea about sentencing laws Shrap of course. But a four year sentence would mean what in old money? 2/3 years at most I would suspect. There or thereabouts?

I don't think this is a punishment which would fit this crime? And I guess that's my general view. Are sentences long enough in themselves and of themselves to put people off a life of crime? And is prison sufficiently horrendous to make people think they really don't want to go back?

I dunno.... And I don't claim to be some sort of expert on this, just a layman reacting to an article.

Over and out..

But I am guessing you have never been inside?

Me neither, and I don't intend to be, I spent a few hours in a cell once due to some copper wanting to give me a scare when I was a teen, even though I had done nothing wrong (long story) anyway I don't see 2 years as a light sentence I couldn't even begin to put a value on my liberty, imagine you missed out on being 20-21 just imagine taking them away and tell me 2 years is a light sentence, even if prisons were a luxury hotel you couldn't leave it would be torture for me, yes some people adapt, some people can even find some positives from their time inside, but 2 years without liberty is not a light sentence.

People bandy around 6 months, 2 years, 5 years, 10 years but until you can sit back and actually contemplate that time and what you could achieve, or what you would miss out on, I don't think people really appreciate what a punishment a prison sentence is.

[Webbo]

But I am guessing you have never been inside?

Me neither, and I don't intend to be, I spent a few hours in a cell once due to some copper wanting to give me a scare when I was a teen, even though I had done nothing wrong (long story) anyway I don't see 2 years as a light sentence I couldn't even begin to put a value on my liberty, imagine you missed out on being 20-21 just imagine taking them away and tell me 2 years is a light sentence, even if prisons were a luxury hotel you couldn't leave it would be torture for me, yes some people adapt, some people can even find some positives from their time inside, but 2 years without liberty is not a light sentence.

People bandy around 6 months, 2 years, 5 years, 10 years but until you can sit back and actually contemplate that time and what you could achieve, or what you would miss out on, I don't think people really appreciate what a punishment a prison sentence is.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.