Finnegan Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 You started it. I'm aware but I wasn't being completely literal where as spherical seems to be hammering home the point as if Moose is a retard for not agreeing when, to be honest, he isn't. He's quite right. It's pretty evident spherical is no kind of expert in the field and is largely spouting rhetoric based on typical stereotypes associated with psychopathy. It's not the lack of remorse that threw me, anyway, it was the completely casual nature of his attitude towards those deaths. If I killed someone who was actively trying to kill me and mine I might feel a wide range of emotions and be immensely ****ed up but I don't think remorse would be one of those sensations. That doesn't render me a psychopath. For the record, the Bob Hare criteria in full: Factor 1: Personality "Aggressive narcissism"Glibness/superficial charm Grandiose sense of self-worth Pathological lying Conning/manipulative Lack of remorse or guilt Shallow affect (genuine emotion is short-lived and egocentric) Callousness; lack of empathy Failure to accept responsibility for own actions Factor 2: Case history "Socially deviant lifestyle". Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom Parasitic lifestyle Poor behavioral control Lack of realistic long-term goals Impulsivity Irresponsibility Juvenile delinquency Early behavior problems Revocation of conditional release Traits not correlated with either factor Promiscuous sexual behavior Many short-term (marital) relationships Criminal versatility Acquired behavioural sociopathy/sociological conditioning (Item 21: a newly identified trait i.e., a person relying on sociological strategies and tricks to deceive) Each element is rated between 0 and 2 and You have to score pretty high to be considered a psychopath and there are hundreds of disorders that cover a wide range of overlapping symptoms to drastically less severity. And that's even if there actually IS anything wrong with the guy which is a bit of a stretch for us to decide, especially given I'd hope that a guy that's had something like one hundred and sixty official hits would be subject to at least some sort of marine core psychological evaluation along the way.
Webbo Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 It all depends how you kill them though. If you kill someone in a spur of the moment act of self defence or moment of rage it is one thing. To get your camouflage on get your sniper rifle out and wait for your victim on the top of a building for hours. Wait until he is in your sights still enough so you can steady yourself breath out slowly as you depress the trigger smoothly so as not to miss, it is a completely different issue. To be a good sniper you need to display certain psychopathic tendencies, whether there are innate or learnt, and whether that makes a difference I don't know. ...but what I do know is if I had to rely on someone to cover me with a sniper rifle I would prefer the remorseless detached 'psycho' to someone 'normal' But if you know the person you are targeting is an enemy combatant isn't that better than firing an indiscriminate artillery round that could kill anyone?
Finnegan Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 But if you know the person you are targeting is an enemy combatant isn't that better than firing an indiscriminate artillery round that could kill anyone? I know there are high profile cases of civilian casualties that dominate the headlines but I don't think modern technology is really all that crude these days is it? I'm pretty sure a modern gunner or L/Bombardier would find that a little bit offensive!
Zingari Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 I know there are high profile cases of civilian casualties that dominate the headlines but I don't think modern technology is really all that crude these days is it? I'm pretty sure a modern gunner / lnc bombardier would find that a little bit offensive! A much greater percentage of civilians get killed and injured in modern warfare than they did in more traditional combat .
Webbo Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 I know there are high profile cases of civilian casualties that dominate the headlines but I don't think modern technology is really all that crude these days is it? I'm pretty sure a modern gunner or L/Bombardier would find that a little bit offensive! Possibly but one bullet can kill one person where as if you point a shell at a building it can kill many, some innocent and some not.
Finnegan Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 A much greater percentage of civilians get killed and injured in modern warfare than they did in more traditional combat . Yep?
Rincewind Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 I wouldn't have fancied being on a middle ages battlefield with nearby swords pick axes and knives being swung about by comrades as well as enemy.
Zingari Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 I wouldn't have fancied being on a middle ages battlefield with nearby swords pick axes and knives being swung about by comrades as well as enemy. you'd be pretty safe as a non combatant though , which is not the case today .
Finnegan Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 I'd consider that "modern" warfare Then you missed the entire point. The suggestion is that technology has advanced a long, long way since then. Slight difference between Jones the Bomb ducking behind enemy lines with his compass and protractor to guess shelling arcs and laser guided missiles that could shoot the arse off a desert mouse from four continents away.
Rincewind Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 TRue. I think I would just lay on the floor until it was over. A few yards from the action obviously.
sphericalfox Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 I'm aware but I wasn't being completely literal where as spherical seems to be hammering home the point as if Moose is a retard for not agreeing when, to be honest, he isn't. He's quite right. It's pretty evident spherical is no kind of expert in the field and is largely spouting rhetoric based on typical stereotypes associated with psychopathy. It's not the lack of remorse that threw me, anyway, it was the completely casual nature of his attitude towards those deaths. If I killed someone who was actively trying to kill me and mine I might feel a wide range of emotions and be immensely ****ed up but I don't think remorse would be one of those sensations. That doesn't render me a psychopath. For the record, the Bob Hare criteria in full: Each element is rated between 0 and 2 and You have to score pretty high to be considered a psychopath and there are hundreds of disorders that cover a wide range of overlapping symptoms to drastically less severity. And that's even if there actually IS anything wrong with the guy which is a bit of a stretch for us to decide, especially given I'd hope that a guy that's had something like one hundred and sixty official hits would be subject to at least some sort of marine core psychological evaluation along the way. Nice edit. Hmm, do I claim to be an expert? No. I differ on opinion on the definition of whether a sniper requires psychopathic tendencies to do their job. Having known one, I'd say that's a confirmation. I'm sure you and Moosey know more snipers than me.
Finnegan Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 Nice edit. Hmm, do I claim to be an expert? No. I differ on opinion on the definition of whether a sniper requires psychopathic tendencies to do their job. Having known one, I'd say that's a confirmation. I'm sure you and Moosey know more snipers than me. The **** has that got to do with it? I probably know more brickies than you do that doesn't mean I'm qualified to start diagnosing them all with mental health conditions based on two lines of quotation in an interview. Your mate might not be all there in the head, plenty of snipers might be a bit off the edge and hell it might be part of the territory. But there's a big difference between being a bit neurotic or having a bit of a personality disorder and being an actual psychopath.
Guest BlueBrett Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 I wouldn't have fancied being on a middle ages battlefield with nearby swords pick axes and knives being swung about by comrades as well as enemy. At least you get a chance of killing the king though. And if your king takes an axe you are allowed to just do a runner no questions asked. Then you missed the entire point.The suggestion is that technology has advanced a long, long way since then. Slight difference between Jones the Bomb ducking behind enemy lines with his compass and protractor to guess shelling arcs and laser guided missiles that could shoot the arse off a desert mouse from four continents away. Well they always tell us that they have this crazy technology that can do this and that but then you also hear more and more stories of unmanned drones killing barns full of Afghani women. I think I read that we just invested a load more cash into drone technology as well as a means of mitigating cuts to the number of troops.
MC Prussian Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 The **** has that got to do with it? I probably know more brickies than you do that doesn't mean I'm qualified to start diagnosing them all with mental health conditions based on two lines of quotation in an interview. Your mate might not be all there in the head, plenty of snipers might be a bit off the edge and hell it might be part of the territory. But there's a big difference between being a bit neurotic or having a bit of a personality disorder and being an actual psychopath. Yeah, but brickies don't kill people for fun.
Webbo Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 Yeah, but brickies don't kill people for fun. I've worked on some rough sites, I wouldn't bet on that.
sphericalfox Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 The **** has that got to do with it? I probably know more brickies than you do that doesn't mean I'm qualified to start diagnosing them all with mental health conditions based on two lines of quotation in an interview. Your mate might not be all there in the head, plenty of snipers might be a bit off the edge and hell it might be part of the territory. But there's a big difference between being a bit neurotic or having a bit of a personality disorder and being an actual psychopath. do you know the difference between the words 'psychopathic tendencies', and me being a layman pronouncing someone an actual psychopath don't you?
Zingari Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 civilian casualties (estimates) WW I 10% WW II 50% Vietnam 70% Iraq 90%
Finnegan Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 Yeah, but brickies don't kill people for fun. You've never been to Braunstone, have you?
Guest BlueBrett Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 do you know the difference between the words 'psychopathic tendencies', and me being a layman pronouncing someone an actual psychopath don't you? Ahhhhh bloody hell stop going on about psychopaths would you! You DO NOT have to be a psychopath to be a sniper. Some snipers potentially are psychopaths. That is it.
Finnegan Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 do you know the difference between the words 'psychopathic tendencies', and me being a layman pronouncing someone an actual psychopath don't you? I understand that you're clutching at straws now because you've dug a bit of a hole, yes.
sphericalfox Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 Ahhhhh bloody hell stop going on about psychopaths would you! You DO NOT have to be a psychopath to be a sniper. Some snipers potentially are psychopaths. That is it. fook off, I'm replying to someone else's post. if you don't like it pop us on block. I understand that you're clutching at straws now because you've dug a bit of a hole, yes. quote me bitch
Zingari Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 Yeah, but brickies don't kill people for fun. Have you never heard of William The Concreter ? .
MC Prussian Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 I agree with the notion that "psychopath" is an overused term these days, as it also alludes certain clichéd pictures of men in straightjackets and overtly disturbed, extrovert human beings. Maybe psychosis is what I'm looking for here. Again, it covers a wide array of negative emotions or behavioral patterns. But I'd agree with sphericalfox here that in general, snipers don't feel remorse for anything they're doing in combat. They might at the beginning, but with time and experience, it simply becomes a "job". What I was referring to earlier on in this thread is that war and armies are environments where lunatics (no matter how severe the case is without being detected) and psychopaths can blossom. And I do believe it requires a certain state of mind to pursue a career in killing other people on behalf of your government. A certain degree of ruthlessness, lack of remorse, lack of empathy, high stress tolerance and certain egocentric tendencies.
Finnegan Posted 4 February 2013 Posted 4 February 2013 Have you never heard of William The Concreter ? . grooooan.
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