He who lives by the sword etc.....

[Webbo]

Have you never heard of William The Concreter ? .

if I hadn't run out of +1 I'd have repped just for having the nerve to crack that.

[Finnegan]

I agree with the notion that "psychopath" is an overused term these days, as it also alludes certain clichéd pictures of men in straightjackets and overtly disturbed, extrovert human beings.

Maybe psychosis is what I'm looking for here. Again, it covers a wide array of negative emotions or behavioral patterns.

But I'd agree with sphericalfox here that in general, snipers don't feel remorse for anything they're doing in combat. They might at the beginning, but with time and experience, it simply becomes a "job".

What I was referring to earlier on in this thread is that war and armies are environments where lunatics (no matter how severe the case is without being detected) and psychopaths can blossom.

And I do believe it requires a certain state of mind to pursue a career in killing other people on behalf of your government.

A certain degree of ruthlessness, lack of remorse, lack of empathy, high stress tolerance and certain egocentric tendencies.

I certainly hope we don't have teams of highly trained marksmen with serious psychosis running around armed and dangerous!!

[MC Prussian]

I certainly hope we don't have teams of highly trained marksmen with serious psychosis running around armed and dangerous!!

I don't mind.

I'm neutral.

[MC Prussian]

I certainly hope we don't have teams of highly trained marksmen with serious psychosis running around armed and dangerous!!

If Call of Duty and X-Com: Enemy Unknown taught me something it is that snipers can't kill in close combat for shït!

[The Doctor]

I don't mind.

I'm neutral.

Hold on a second, you wouldn't mind people with psychosis having access to weapons? **** man, the last people I'd want to be highly trained with weapons and running around armed is those who are mentally impaired to the point where they struggle to stay connected to reality.

I know one chap whose condition has left them certain everyone is a government spy, they shouldn't be allowed such freedom with weapons - for their own safety as much as everyone elses.

[Finnegan]

Hold on a second, you wouldn't mind people with psychosis having access to weapons? **** man, the last people I'd want to be highly trained with weapons and running around armed is those who are mentally impaired to the point where they struggle to stay connected to reality.

I know one chap whose condition has left them certain everyone is a government spy, they shouldn't be allowed such freedom with weapons - for their own safety as much as everyone elses.

he means he's Swiss so he doesn't give a ****.

[Guest BlueBrett]

Vasily Zaytsev comes across like a lovely bloke in enemy at the gates

[The Doctor]

he means he's Swiss so he doesn't give a ****.

Aaah - damn filthy neutrals. At least with enemies you know where they stand.

I'm surprised you didn't make a joke about knowing el empty given the government spies comment.

[BoneDog]

I know there are high profile cases of civilian casualties that dominate the headlines but I don't think modern technology is really all that crude these days is it?

Hundreds of artillery shells can be sent through the air to land 30 or so miles away in minutes. They do big damage to villages, towns and cities and are very indiscriminate from what I can tell. Not really precision at all. I think the shells are also coated with depleted uranium which causes many more problems for populations for years to come.

There are some high profile cases of civilian deaths, but there are many more cases we'll never hear about.

On the subject of psychopaths, I'd bet that a large number of service people do feel some guilt along with other negative emotions that many of us will likely never have to deal with. Those people are obviously not psychopaths.

If a war was not justified then I think those in positions of power who were responsible for it would never feel any guilt or related emotions, because they would have been calling for the war in the first place. It was their wish. They're the psychopaths in my opinion, and not most of the military folk.

That's the gist of what I believe about the matter anyway.

[BoneDog]

Slight difference between Jones the Bomb ducking behind enemy lines with his compass and protractor to guess shelling arcs and laser guided missiles that could shoot the arse off a desert mouse from four continents away.

If only it were like that. These 'precision' shells and bombs explode and don't just take out the mouse. They explode and send rubble and whatnot flying off in all directions, and are followed by another ten, hundred or more shells, missiles or bombs that do the same thing. Then they leave the land, water and population poisoned for a long time. Who knows how many hundreds of thousands of DU shells have been exploded in the last decade alone. Modern war technology ain't shit for saving or helping civilians from what I can tell.

Are you a fan of drone strikes because they are supposedly precision? Drone strikes kill more women and children than they do 'terrorists'. They've even been taking out kids who're already starving to death in Somalia. I'm not sure the word 'precision' should ever be used to describe these weapons. Not a fan myself.

[Finnegan]

Is this not largely down to the American attitude towards war and the populace they're attacking, though?

It's not that technology has gone backwards, it's that the US' willingness to flatten an entire area on the off chance of mirking the Jack of Clubs has greatly increased.

[Reynard Bleu]

Whilst the British army deploys many sophisticated weapons systems designed to neutralise the enemy from a distance. The ethos of the British infantry regements remains to close with the enemy, bring him to battle and destroy him. Putting as much lead in the air as you can to supress him and win the firefight. Whilst in close combat much of your humanity is suspended and the adrenaline takes over. May be even a temporary psychosis, particularly when you take casualties. You don't suddenly return to normal whan the shooting stops. I don't believe anyone survives close combat completely unaffected, but some cope better than others. Snipers are killing at ranges up to 8-900 metres, further with something like a Barrett series. They will see the strike but may not feel the intense rush of a firefight. They must feel something, dealing out death is not something that leaves no mark.

[breadandcheese]

Is this not largely down to the American attitude towards war and the populace they're attacking, though?

It's not that technology has gone backwards, it's that the US' willingness to flatten an entire area on the off chance of mirking the Jack of Clubs has greatly increased.

Is this not down to the changing pattern of war?

World war 1 was fought in trenches in fields away from civilian areas. It's little surprise that few casualties of civilians would be reported.

Today's conflicts tend to be asymmetric, with outmanned and outgunned groups, merging into civilian populations, as a form of camouflage and protection. It is no surprise that civilian casualties rise. This is one of the challenges of modern warfare.

[Leicester Piggott]

War used to waged on regimes. Regimes can be toppled and others put in place.

Today's wars are often fought on ideas. You can't kill an idea. Killing a fundamentalist arguably creates a martyr and spawns a further 10, 20 or 50 fundamentalists/extremists/whatever.

Breadandcheese's comments are also spot on. Your enemy is often not an easily identifiable/quantifiable unit or army.

[Finnegan]

Is this not down to the changing pattern of war?

World war 1 was fought in trenches in fields away from civilian areas. It's little surprise that few casualties of civilians would be reported.

Today's conflicts tend to be asymmetric, with outmanned and outgunned groups, merging into civilian populations, as a form of camouflage and protection. It is no surprise that civilian casualties rise. This is one of the challenges of modern warfare.

Exactly, yes.

Not disagreeing with any of that.

[Reynard Bleu]

World war 1 was fought in trenches in fields away from civilian areas. It's little surprise that few casualties of civilians would be reported.

.

Numbers vary a little, but of the 16-17 million estimated to have been killed during WW1, some 7 million were civilian.

[breadandcheese]

Exactly, yes.

Not disagreeing with any of that.

It sounded from your comments that you were placing the onus of blame on America, whereas I just think war has evolved organically, based on new technology.

[Rincewind]

I would say war has become more clinical. A soldier does not have to see who they are killing so cannot imagine them with families. Just fire a rocket or three in the rough direction and it will either take the artillery out or enemy. Poorer enemies do not wear military uniform and can be any age or sex so snipers would assume all were enemy.

I don't understand how they can do it and not have emotions but I am only looking at it from the POV whether I could do it.

I am put off James Bond in some ways because of the way he eliminates hundreds of the enemy then goes to a bar for his shaken not stirred tipple or beds a beutiful women without a thought about what has happened.

I know it is make believe as are many similar films but the lack of emotion is just not natual and unrealistic which spoils the film somewhat.

[Leicester Piggott]

I would say war has become more clinical. A soldier does not have to see who they are killing so cannot imagine them with families. Just fire a rocket or three in the rough direction and it will either take the artillery out or enemy. Poorer enemies do not wear military uniform and can be any age or sex so snipers would assume all were enemy.

I don't understand how they can do it and not have emotions but I am only looking at it from the POV whether I could do it.

I am put off James Bond in some ways because of the way he eliminates hundreds of the enemy then goes to a bar for his shaken not stirred tipple or beds a beutiful women without a thought about what has happened.

I know it is make believe as are many similar films but the lack of emotion is just not natual and unrealistic which spoils the film somewhat.

I agree. James Bond should be brought to justice post haste.

While we're at it, those aliens out of Independence Day should be next on the list.

[Rincewind]

I agree. James Bond should be brought to justice post haste.

While we're at it, those aliens out of Independence Day should be next on the list.

Yes I know you are taking the Mick but sometimes a good film can be spoiled by unrealistic characters. Aliens are unreal and the events are unlikely. After the initial ridiculous opening I try to turn off and view James Bond as entertainment but its not just James Bond. There are countless Hollywood police, gangster and war films that have emotionless characters.

[Captain...]

Numbers vary a little, but of the 16-17 million estimated to have been killed during WW1, some 7 million were civilian.

They were all civilian at some point.

[Reynard Bleu]

They were all civilian at some point.

True, perhaps a better term would be non-combatants. Its odd but WW1 is nearly always characterised as something like 'slaughter in the trenches' etc, True, the casualty rate on the Western Front was appalling and may have been the highest rate in the war I don't know, but the conflict was much wider, a World War indeed. Millions died on the Eastern Front, the moutains of southern Europe and the Balkans, the middle east, Turkey, East Africa and of course on the high seas.

[Rincewind]

HE THAT LIVES

In the saloon of the one and only hotel in Foxestalkville a young man known simply as Daggers was leaning on the bar drinking whiskey. In the corner of the room sat four cowboys playing a game of cards. Daggers picked up a handful of peanuts from a bowl on the bar and started to throw them at the balding head of Moose the nearest player who sat with his back facing Daggers. This went on for a minute or two with Moose becoming more aggravated until he swung round in his chair.

‘Hey Daggers, pack it in will yer I’m a just a trying to have a peaceful game of cards.’

‘Yer gonna make me Moose?’ came the reply

‘I don’t want no trouble Daggers is all I’m a saying. I know it’s just the whiskey doing yer talking’

Moose turned back to the game.

Daggers commenced the nut throwing, this time his attention turned to another player at the table Jake. It wasn't long before Flowolf who had a short temper that was to prove his downfall responded.

He stood up to face Daggers his hands down by his side.

‘Right Daggers it’s time someone taught yer a lesson, I’m gonna plug yer.’ He yelled as his hand went for his gun. But The Daggers was fast. Too fast for Flowolf who had only half drawn his revolver from its holster before he was hit twice by bullets from Dagger's’ pair of black-handled Colt 45’s.

Flowolf slumped to the floor dying from his wounds.

‘You all saw that.’ Cried Daggers to the roomful of onlookers, ‘he went for his gun first. There were no objection to these words.

Daggers returned to the bar as the bartender came up to him.

‘Hey Kid it’s true Flowolf went for his gun first but it was not a fair fight, we all know you are the fastest gun in this territory and you did goad poor Flowolf, but be assured Kid God will be a witness and will be your judge when your time comes.’

‘Well Webbo, I don’t answer to no god and until there’s a man faster these guns will be all I worship. He re-holstered his guns and picked up his hat.

‘Better be off now. Think I’ll get me a shave and a bath then wander down to Ella's whorehouse to have me a nice girl.’

He placed his hat on his head and as he did A gunshot rang out smashing the glass behind the bar. Daggers took off his hat.

‘Well I’ll be dammed; some bastard has put a hole in my best hat.’

Daggers strode through the swing doors of the saloon and looked out onto the dusty street. Before him stood a man dressed all in gold. Gold denims. Gold waist-coat and gold hat. He was calmly spinning a gold-handled revolver around the index finger of his right hand. He faced Daggers and nodded to a spot about 20 yards in front of him then replaced the gun. From his waistcoat he took a dollar coin. As he faced him Daggers knew what this meant. The man tossed the coin into the air and as it landed Daggers guns were out and firing. Then a pained expression came upon his face as he realised he had been too slow for his challenger. He slumped to the ground. As the man in gold stood over him with his dying breaths Daggers said ‘Who are you.?

‘Your judge’, came the reply, ‘for the crime of blasphemy I sentence you to Hell.’

[Guest]

Have you never heard of William The Concreter ? .

Does he do car parks?

[Guest]

A sniper in a professional army doesn't target civilians. He will have been trying to kill enemy combatants, people who would gladly kill him and his comrades. he is trying to win and therefore end the war. He doesn't pick his targets for fun. Calling him a psychopath is ridiculous hyperbole.

A professional soldier would be killing whoever he was "told" to kill whether they were enemy or not and whether they were "combatants" or not. I fail to see how Iraqi troops were enemies of the UK and that goes for most of the "wars" that "professional' troops get involved in nowadays.

As was said earlier killing to directly defend your home/family/country on home soil is one thing. Going out and about around the world and killing whichever side of a conflict least helps your economic position is another.