He who lives by the sword etc.....

[leicsmac]

'Just following orders' or 'just doing my job' were the excuses the SS used to justify their line of work.

And doing something 'for the greater good' is I'm sure a real boon to those who lose their lives or the lives of those close to them.

Back in the dark days of total war, when there was a legitimate and deadly imminent threat to this countries (or the worlds) existence, the end justified the means. Now...there isn't. And I doubt there will be for many, many years to come given that the next worldwide war would (everyone knows) result in the end of civilisation.

Both US and UK soldiers are now being involved in conflicts around the world not out of any sense of moral superiority or for the good/survival of our country, but to fulfil facile political objectives given by those in power. Personally, I don't think that's not a good enough reason to kill.

[MooseBreath]

Then you clearly do not know the definition of psychopath.

"A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse."

Antisocial personality disorder? No evidence of that at all.

Aggressive? Arguably yes, but in that line of work, you know going to war and shit, it kind of goes with the territory.

Perverted? No evidence.

Criminal? No evidence.

Amoral behaviour? See aggressive.

Without empathy or remorse? We don't really know. He did what he was paid to do. Any appropriate empathy or remorse I would argue was not his to bear.

[MooseBreath]

'Just following orders' or 'just doing my job' were the excuses the SS used to justify their line of work.

And doing something 'for the greater good' is I'm sure a real boon to those who lose their lives or the lives of those close to them.

Back in the dark days of total war, when there was a legitimate and deadly imminent threat to this countries (or the worlds) existence, the end justified the means. Now...there isn't. And I doubt there will be for many, many years to come given that the next worldwide war would (everyone knows) result in the end of civilisation.

Both US and UK soldiers are now being involved in conflicts around the world not out of any sense of moral superiority or for the good/survival of our country, but to fulfil facile political objectives given by those in power. Personally, I don't think that's not a good enough reason to kill.

So you reckon our soldiers should just refuse to fight anyone until they've each been satisfied that the fighting is fully justified?

[sphericalfox]

"A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse."

Antisocial personality disorder? No evidence of that at all.

Aggressive? Arguably yes, but in that line of work, you know going to war and shit, it kind of goes with the territory.

Perverted? No evidence.

Criminal? No evidence.

Amoral behaviour? See aggressive.

Without empathy or remorse? We don't really know. He did what he was paid to do. Any appropriate empathy or remorse I would argue was not his to bear.

Are you ****ing serious. He was asked directly did he feel guilty/remorse for killing people. His response was that in his mind that they were bad. Now I'm no rocket scientist, and I know you're not, but but let's put 2+2 together. You might be able to split hairs on morality, but shooting someone dead whether it's 'a job' or not in my view fits into that category.

I, in fact know a British solider who was a sniper, and have spoken to him about what it took to do his job. Psychopathic tendencies are a necessity to do that job, and move on to the next target.

Here's another definition:

psychopath (ˈsaɪkəʊˌpæθ) — n Also called: sociopath a person afflicted with a personality disorder characterized by a tendency to commit antisocial and sometimes violent acts and a failure to feel guilt for such acts

[Rincewind]

Depends what one considers justifiable. Some follow orders because they are told it is for Queen and country and for freedom.

During the Great War Generals toured schools to recruit young men to fight on the front line. The young men believed the stories of bravery and that they were doing the right thing because of the speeches.

Blair did similar when justifying going into Iraq.

[BoneDog]

Sorry, but if our behaviour was influenced by video games a lot of people my age would have spent the last decade imprisoning animals in small balls and making them fight each other. Teenagers in the 80's would spend their life listening to repetitive electronic music while running round dark rooms, munching pills and fleeing from ghosts.

This idea that video games cause violent behaviour is ridiculous.

I didn't specifically say video games. This is a side issue in the thread that I just commented on.

If you're saying that many people, youngsters especially, aren't influenced by music, films and other entertainment including games, then I say you're wrong. I've seen it for myself many times in all manner of ways, including violent ways.

[Webbo]

During the Great War Generals toured schools to recruit young men to fight on the front line. The young men believed the stories of bravery and that they were doing the right thing because of the speeches.

Blair did similar when justifying going into Iraq.

I'm no fan of Tony Blair but I'm pretty sure he didn't.

[MooseBreath]

Are you ****ing serious. He was asked directly did he feel guilty/remorse for killing people. His response was that in his mind that they were bad. Now I'm no rocket scientist, and I know you're not, but but let's put 2+2 together. You might be able to split hairs on morality, but shooting someone dead whether it's 'a job' or not in my view fits into that category.

I, in fact know a British solider who was a sniper, and have spoken to him about what it took to do his job. Psychopathic tendencies are a necessity to do that job, and move on to the next target.

Here's another definition:

psychopath (ˈsaɪkəʊˌpæθ) — n Also called: sociopath a person afflicted with a personality disorder characterized by a tendency to commit antisocial and sometimes violent acts and a failure to feel guilt for such acts

Ok. Then by your thinking anyone who kills anyone without feeling remorse is a psychopath. I'm not even going to bother with explaining how flawed that is. Stick to the weird blogs mate. This is obviously a fair bit above your level.

[Finnegan]

From what I hear that's exactly what they did.

He's aware. Except he means the nineties and it's a Marcus Brigstocke joke partly made famous when it was nabbed by some broadsheet journo.

[Finnegan]

You can kill someone, think it was justified and not be q psychopath. Psychopathy is such an overused dramatic diagnosis.

[sphericalfox]

Ok. Then by your thinking anyone who kills anyone without feeling remorse is a psychopath. I'm not even going to bother with explaining how flawed that is. Stick to the weird blogs mate. This is obviously a fair bit above your level.

Sorry, what's that Professor, please give us all the definition suiting a remorseless sniper, who has killed people. Enlighten us all with your brilliance. Stick to being a shit troll.

Remorseless being the key word here.

[leicsmac]

So you reckon our soldiers should just refuse to fight anyone until they've each been satisfied that the fighting is fully justified?

Not quite...I think though they should be pretty clear about the idea that the UK is not under threat, and they are doing their job (and killing) for a wage and to extend political goals, not for any high and mighty purpose (for Queen and country and all that crap).

If the UK was under genuine threat of invasion/destruction from another country, you could put a rifle in my hand and point me at the enemy. I'd be happy to do the rest.

But it's not, and hopefully it won't be for a long time. I just don't think that any conflict our soldiers are in now is worth the bodies and broken men that are coming back. Obviously some people think differently, fair enough.

[BoneDog]

He's aware. Except he means the nineties and it's a Marcus Brigstocke joke partly made famous when it was nabbed by some broadsheet journo.

Well that one went straight over my head then!

[Webbo]

You can kill someone, think it was justified and not be q psychopath. Psychopathy is such an overused dramatic diagnosis.

You started it.

What a complete psychopath.

[MooseBreath]

Sorry, what's that Professor, please give us all the definition suiting a remorseless sniper, who has killed people. Enlighten us all with your brilliance.

Remorseless being the key word here.

seriously?

[Webbo]

A sniper in a professional army doesn't target civilians. He will have been trying to kill enemy combatants, people who would gladly kill him and his comrades. he is trying to win and therefore end the war. He doesn't pick his targets for fun. Calling him a psychopath is ridiculous hyperbole.

[sphericalfox]

seriously?

Is it all a bit much for you Professor? Myself and I'm sure most of the forum await your enlightened definition.

[MooseBreath]

Not quite...I think though they should be pretty clear about the idea that the UK is not under threat, and they are doing their job (and killing) for a wage and to extend political goals, not for any high and mighty purpose (for Queen and country and all that crap).

If the UK was under genuine threat of invasion/destruction from another country, you could put a rifle in my hand and point me at the enemy. I'd be happy to do the rest.

But it's not, and hopefully it won't be for a long time. I just don't think that any conflict our soldiers are in now is worth the bodies and broken men that are coming back. Obviously some people think differently, fair enough.

I don't disagree although I think it's a little naive to suggest that Joe Public is fully aware of all the threats facing our country and I strongly suspect that a fair bit of justification is never made public, so none of us can really say for sure if our military actions are worthwhile or not.

What I don't agree with is that individual soldiers following orders should be expected to feel guilty. They should be strictly under the impression that what they are doing is justified, if it turns out that it isn't then it's those making the orders that should shoulder the burden of the guilt.

[MooseBreath]

Is it all a bit much for you Professor? Myself and I'm sure most of the forum await your enlightened definition.

You can try to speak on behalf of the rest of the forum if you want, but when pretty much everyone is disagreeing with you it just makes you look even more stupid.

[Charl91]

Is it all a bit much for you Professor? Myself and I'm sure most of the forum await your enlightened definition.

I disagree that you should always feel remorse for killing. If a man was trying to kill my family, I would kill them and feel no remorse whatsoever, because I would believe that it is entirely justified. I don't think that makes me a psychopath.

I believe the basis of being a psychopath is down to the reasoning/logic behind your actions. If he believed that the people he was killing were bad people, that were threatening his and his friends existence, and he had good evidence to support that theory, then I can understand how he can justify it without feeling remorse. It doesn't necessarily make him a psychopath. If he believed he was targetting civilians, then it would be a different matter, but I'm sure, in his eyes, they were just combatants out to do him harm.

He could have been a psychopath. but we don't possess all the facts.

[sphericalfox]

You can try to speak on behalf of the rest of the forum if you want, but when pretty much everyone is disagreeing with you it just makes you look even more stupid.

Who's that then, has everyone DM'd you and given you a reply on this matter? I know for a fact that a sniper requires psychopathic tendencies to do their job. Therefore you can call me stupid all you like.

[Zingari]

I suppose a lot depends on how convinced (or how brainwashed) you are with regard to who you are shooting.

I’m fairly sure that both British and German snipers in the WW1 trenches believed that they were the good guys who were killing the evil ones .

It’s amazing what propaganda can do

[sphericalfox]

I disagree that you should always feel remorse for killing. If a man was trying to kill my family, I would kill them and feel no remorse whatsoever, because I would believe that it is entirely justified. I don't think that makes me a psychopath.

I believe the basis of being a psychopath is down to the reasoning/logic behind your actions. If he believed that the people he was killing were bad people, that were threatening his and his friends existence, and he had good evidence to support that theory, then I can understand how he can justify it without feeling remorse. It doesn't necessarily make him a psychopath. If he believed he was targetting civilians, then it would be a different matter, but I'm sure, in his eyes, they were just combatants out to do him harm.

He could have been a psycho looney, but we don't possess all the facts.

1. He admits killing about 250 persons.

2. I never called him a looney. Psychopaths generally are very controlled individuals. Not a Hollywood nonsense of the word.

[leicsmac]

I don't disagree although I think it's a little naive to suggest that Joe Public is fully aware of all the threats facing our country and I strongly suspect that a fair bit of justification is never made public, so none of us can really say for sure if our military actions are worthwhile or not.

What I don't agree with is that individual soldiers following orders should be expected to feel guilty. They should be strictly under the impression that what they are doing is justified, if it turns out that it isn't then it's those making the orders that should shoulder the burden of the guilt.

This I do agree with. Soldiers should question their orders when the time is right, eg. not when someone is running towards you with a rifle or is about to detonate an IED underneath your vehicle...but the politicians who make the stupid justifications for war should be the ones who shoulder the vast majority of the blame.

As for your first paragraph...obviously all threats to the UK can't be made public immediately, but if a Government sanctions military action it should damn well be justified, and that justification should be made public and held up for inspection by every person in the country. Military action of any kind should be subject to democracy perhaps more than any other political decision, given the amount that it can potentially affect everyone.

[Captain...]

I disagree that you should always feel remorse for killing. If a man was trying to kill my family, I would kill them and feel no remorse whatsoever, because I would believe that it is entirely justified. I don't think that makes me a psychopath.

I believe the basis of being a psychopath is down to the reasoning/logic behind your actions. If he believed that the people he was killing were bad people, that were threatening his and his friends existence, and he had good evidence to support that theory, then I can understand how he can justify it without feeling remorse. It doesn't necessarily make him a psychopath. If he believed he was targetting civilians, then it would be a different matter, but I'm sure, in his eyes, they were just combatants out to do him harm.

He could have been a psychopath. but we don't possess all the facts.

It all depends how you kill them though.

If you kill someone in a spur of the moment act of self defence or moment of rage it is one thing. To get your camouflage on get your sniper rifle out and wait for your victim on the top of a building for hours. Wait until he is in your sights still enough so you can steady yourself breath out slowly as you depress the trigger smoothly so as not to miss, it is a completely different issue.

To be a good sniper you need to display certain psychopathic tendencies, whether there are innate or learnt, and whether that makes a difference I don't know.

...but what I do know is if I had to rely on someone to cover me with a sniper rifle I would prefer the remorseless detached 'psycho' to someone 'normal'