"Tanking"

[ozleicester]

Not sure if you guys are all familiar with "Tanking"? (its another word for cheating, but ill get to that)

Im not even sure how to describe it,

In Ozzie rules footy we have a draft system, which means that the bottom team gets first choice of the next seasons transfers and young players. It may be a little confusing because you have to understand that, you..as a player, dont get to choose who you play for.

Many people on here have mentioned that the draft system in US football etc is a good idea and keeps the competition equal unfortunately thats wrong and it leads to cheating and a mediocre comp, anyway to explain tanking

Imagine the scenario....

You are an 18 year old AFL prodigy.

You play in the 3rd tier competition, in South Australia for Port Magpies FC.

The scouts have been out to your games, you are considered the best talent outside the AFL (premier league)

Your local Premier league Club is Port Adelaide FC and you have been a PAFC fan all your life.

At the opening of Draft week, you and every other half decent player is put on the draft list.

this is where it gets ugly...

PAFC has had a winning season and has finished 4th in the league, so from a 16 team competition, they will get pick number 12

ST Kilda FC, (over the border 1500Klms away) has finished bottom again, so they will have first draft pick. which is of course YOU!

they have to agree dollars, terms and contracts etc... but you have NO CHOICE, its either play for SKFC... or not in the AFL (Prem)

they will also get early and priority picks of older players looking for transfers etc.

This is where "Tanking" comes in....

With 7 games to go in the season.. SKFC was in 13th place, no chance of finals, nothing to play for (other than pride and fans). However, if they finish bottom, just 3 places and a few points below where they are.... they will have FIRST CHOICE at the best talent in the country (and if they finish bottom a couple of times, they will even get a bonus pick which might get them the 4th best player as well) in next seasons "draft"

So, the SKFC, rests its best players, saying they have minor injuries, they play the rest of the side out of position eg, full backs as attackers, attackers as defenders. etc. Surprise surpise the club loses its games, finishes bottom and picks up the best players in the league.

It does this for 2-3 years and suddenly has the best list in the country and if they have a half decent coach they go on to be challenging for the premiership in the next 3 or so years.

this has and is happening in ozzie rules... its a destruction of the game and while the massive $ being paid in the UK football world are sickening.. id rather that, than an artificial competition in which cheating is rewarded.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/tanking-saga-leaves-us-with-more-questions-20130219-2epmq.html

[OzFox]

I always thought "tanking" was a tennis term, meaning a player who would deliberately lose a set to save energy and focus on the deciding set. Or a player who would feign disinterest to try and throw his opponent.

This seems to contradict that though:

Eugene Scott, who directs more than 100 tennis tournaments and publishes a respected tennis magazine, believes that there are three main types of tanking.

He said: 'There is tanking from boredom, anger or just plain financial gain. Some might even call it fraud. There are so many tournaments, players aren't always disappointed to lose. Down a break point, they'll hit for the line. If the ball lands out, well, there's always another tournament.

'The only events that count for players are the Grand Slams and the Nine Masters tournaments. The other events are like practice.

http://www.dailymail...is-tankers.html

[Collymore]

Not sure if you guys are all familiar with "Tanking"? (its another word for cheating, but ill get to that)

Im not even sure how to explain it

Imagine the scenario....

Who gets to judge how good a player is. For example.

Leicester finish in the play offs and the media are raving over Matt Mills. He's been a rock under Alan Young, the Leicester manager.

Nigel Pearson has just taken over at Bristol City and has been given Mat Mills. Alan Young is devistated as he had built up a brilliant relationship with Mills, the fans are distraught and the squad's morale has taken a huge dip.

2 months in and Nigel has dropped Mills for having a big head, not getting on with the other squad players and getting booed off the fans. Nigel has told the Bristol fans they have delusions of grandeur for wanting to stay up, this is another story. (I love you really Nige)

[ozleicester]

Who gets to judge how good a player is. For example.

Leicester finish in the play offs and the media are raving over Matt Mills. He's been a rock under Alan Young, the Leicester manager.

Nigel Pearson has just taken over at Bristol City and has been given Mat Mills. Alan Young is devistated as he had built up a brilliant relationship with Mills, the fans are distraught and the squad's morale has taken a huge dip.

2 months in and Nigel has dropped Mills for having a big head, not getting on with the other squad players and getting booed off the fans. Nigel has told the Bristol fans they have delusions of grandeur for wanting to stay up, this is another story. (I love you really Nige)

The decision is based on popularity of the clubs coaches etc... eg if Messi was available for drafting... i think the general consensus is that he would be the number one pick... but you maybe be looking for a goal keeper and therefore if you had first choice you wouldnt pick Messi.

[Zingari]

"tanking" means expressing gratitude in Ireland

[AyewJoking]

I did a bit of tanking on my wife last night.

Take that whatever way you want.

[Guest]

It's not actually cheating though is it?

It's using the rules to get the best out of a situation for your team.

It's the system that needs adjusting.

[AyewJoking]

you cant beat a bit of "aussie rules"

[Jordan]

Yes, the AFL scenario is similar to what happens in North American sports leagues. There are several valid reasons for having an entry draft in leagues organized in those manners, and also caveats that distinguish the AFL entry draft system from the North American-style system that are worth discussing, though.

The concept of youth academies does not exist here as it does in other sports in other countries with the exception of soccer (MLS has some exceptions to draft rules for "homegrown players").

Here, clubs themselves do not develop players until the player reaches the age/experience required to be eligible for the draft and is drafted, whereby the drafting franchise acquires the "rights" to that player. That's one good reason for an entry draft here: no club can really claim exclusive rights to a young player.

In North America, nearly all young players develop in programs run by schools/colleges (and in hockey, also junior leagues).

If clubs were allowed to sign youth players, this could cause competitive imbalance that would be unhealthy for a closed, cartel-style league. Teams like the Toronto Maple Leafs in hockey and the Dallas Cowboys in the NFL would have massive financial, geographical, and demographic advantages in signing youth players than, say, the Phoenix Coyotes in hockey and the Buffalo Bills in football.

The entry draft, as unfair as it can be in other cases, does help provide parity. One difference between the AFL, as it seems, and the NBA and NHL is that the latter leagues have a draft lottery. Instead of having the worst-placed team automatically get the #1 pick, teams that don't make the playoffs receive a share of chances inversely related to their regular-season records, and the best draft picks are drawn from that lot at random. So, while finishing worse off helps, there is no guarantee that a team will automatically get the top pick, so the incentive for teams to tank it at the end of the season is greatly diminished.

The NFL does not have a draft lottery, but everything about that league is set up to maximize media attention, profit, and supposed competitive balance--fairness be damned. Major League Baseball also does not have a draft lottery, but there is not nearly as much incentive to tank as MLB draft picks are almost never ready to break right into the big leagues. Also the practice of playing youngsters at the end of the season in baseball when your team is down and out is a long-since accepted practice that is essentially written into the rules (the 25-man roster is expanded to 40 for the last month of the season to allow youngsters to be called up).

Teams tank in the NFL either to get the top pick (see the "Suck for Luck" fan campaigns from last year), or sometimes to either rest players for the playoffs, get a more favorable playoff matchup, or get a more favorable schedule the next season. This sort of "tanking" isn't nearly as common in the other leagues, but underachieving teams there will often have a "fire sale" towards the end of the season whereby they trade higher-paid and generally better players to other contending teams in exchange for young prospects, draft picks, or simply to cut payroll--all ostensibly means to "rebuild" the team (although sometimes because owners are just cheap). This happens much more often, but this risks drawing the ire of the fans for either trading a beloved player or creating the impression that the owners are not committed to winning, but rather saving money.

Is this all better? It's tough to say, although this makes more sense here than it would in, say, the UK. One thing that can come back to haunt teams that tank and rebuild with young prospects (particularly highly-rated draft picks) is that those players often command high salaries--salaries that those teams may not be able or willing to pay either at draft time, or more often a few years down the road when it is time to resign the player.

Edit to add that there is always the chance a team can draft an embarrassing bust like Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell, only hurting the team more.

[Kitchandro]

This is why I don't get it when people say we should follow the model in America, or in this case Australia. It rewards being shit.

[Ashley]

I thought a tanking would be a heavy defeat, or smashing someone/thing?

[Jordan]

That could be, I suppose.

"Sandbagging" is another term.

[Guest MattP]

This is why I don't get it when people say we should follow the model in America, or in this case Australia. It rewards being shit.

Two ways you can look at it, could also say that it evens out teh big and little clubs with a financial discrepency as much as they can.

[Fox in the North]

This is why I don't get it when people say we should follow the model in America, or in this case Australia. It rewards being shit.

So you don't mind the best clubs stealing all the best youngsters then? There's not many ways to even it out.

[Bayfox]

That could be, I suppose.

"Sandbagging" is another term.

Sandbagging is an f1 thing. More to do with hiding your performance.

[Kitchandro]

Two ways you can look at it, could also say that it evens out teh big and little clubs with a financial discrepency as much as they can.

So you don't mind the best clubs stealing all the best youngsters then? There's not many ways to even it out.

If you've got to even it out like that, I don't agree with it. I think you've got to have your bigger clubs and your smaller clubs, anyway. I'm OK with that, I don't want us to be rewarded for being rubbish. And we're already not trying to win cup games, we can't stop trying to win league games at the end of the season as well

I know we all envy footballers and think they have it easy etc but I do think they should be able to choose their path in their career. Why should the best players have to play for the shittest clubs? I think ozleicester has summed up the problem with it very well. Imagine if Forest did well the season before you went pro and you had to go to them

Also, our worst teams get relegated, so how would you work that out? I'm not sure how it could possibly work with our league system.

[SOCCERROO FOX]

St.Kilda never finishes bottom, were on the rise again this year

[Anorak]

I always thought "tanking" was a tennis term, meaning a player who would deliberately lose a set to save energy and focus on the deciding set. Or a player who would feign disinterest to try and throw his opponent.

This seems to contradict that though:

Eugene Scott, who directs more than 100 tennis tournaments and publishes a respected tennis magazine, believes that there are three main types of tanking.

He said: 'There is tanking from boredom, anger or just plain financial gain. Some might even call it fraud. There are so many tournaments, players aren't always disappointed to lose. Down a break point, they'll hit for the line. If the ball lands out, well, there's always another tournament.

'The only events that count for players are the Grand Slams and the Nine Masters tournaments. The other events are like practice.

http://www.dailymail...is-tanke's.html

The worst kind of example is for a player who's been carrying an injury one event to surprisingly enter another the following week and retire after 3-4 games. Basically they turned up for an extra losers cheque. Mostly though, 'tanking' isn't nearly common or devious as this rather ropey article makes out. The very last quote is a sweeping generalisation as well, only applicable to the top end of the tour who have ranking points and prize money in abundance.

[OzFox]

The worst kind of example is for a player who's been carrying an injury one event to surprisingly enter another the following week and retire after 3-4 games. Basically they turned up for an extra losers cheque. Mostly though, 'tanking' isn't nearly common or devious as this rather ropey article makes out. The very last quote is a sweeping generalisation as well, only applicable to the top end of the tour who have ranking points and prize money in abundance.

Yeah although it does seem to be reasonably common among the top players. Safin and Tomic are two that spring to mind. Probably the most amusing was the umpire accusing Davydenko of trying to lose on purpose and to try harder. As the article points out it's probably hard to keep motivated when you've got millions in the bank, especially in the smaller tournaments

[ozleicester]

This is why I don't get it when people say we should follow the model in America, or in this case Australia. It rewards being shit.

My thoughts exactly, not just rewards being shit, but artificially fvcks with the league and the clubs. Instead of having the best players playing for the best clubs, you end up with a mostly "level playing field" so you end up with slightly betterthan mediocrity rather than super teams playing the very best football.

Two ways you can look at it, could also say that it evens out teh big and little clubs with a financial discrepency as much as they can.

Depends if you want competition and a chance to see the best.. or be entertained. By spreading the players across the teams it encourages good football across all teams.. rather than fantastic football limited to a few.

So you don't mind the best clubs stealing all the best youngsters then? There's not many ways to even it out.

thats it isnt it.... would you rather that Barca, Real, or Man U could only get a couple of the best players, or would you rather they try to assemble super teams?

Persoanlly, i want to see the best.

St.Kilda never finishes bottom, were on the rise again this year

there was a reason i used Saints

[Jordan]

This is why I don't get it when people say we should follow the model in America, or in this case Australia. It rewards being shit.

Likewise, adopting the FA model for, say, the AFL or NFL would be absurd and almost incomprehensible. Comparing those respective systems is so far beyond even a matter of apples to oranges.

On one hand, we have closed systems of franchisee-owned leagues whose labor comes almost exclusively from the countries in which they operate. On the other, there is an expansive pyramid league system in which teams not only have to compete with each other for labor, but compete against teams and leagues from other countries.

If Joe Player wants to play American or Australian football, he cannot use, say, an offer from another league to use as leverage to earn more money in the NFL or the AFL to earn more money and/or force a move to another team. On the other hand, if the Premier League decided to implement an entry draft, I would assume that most top players would tell the PL to **** off because they can go play in Spain, Italy, Germany, France, Qatar, etc. (and the Premier League would then likely also violate some EU right to work laws with a restrictive entry draft).

[Guest]

This is why I don't get it when people say we should follow the model in America, or in this case Australia. It rewards being shit.

You have to bear in mind that these are "closed" leagues with relatively few clubs. If the league simply allows the rich to get richer then the league will die they have to try to move toward parity.

I think if a euro football league pulled teams out of national leagues and forewent any relegation system you'd find that a type of draft system would be introduced there too.