A taste of things to come

[bovril]

One thing you realise when you move abroad is that the Brits like to bracket people under easy-to-reference headings. Why does every discussion have to end up with lefty / right / racist / PC loony?

I don't really consider myself left or right and I doubt anybody on this forum is racist.

[Rincewind]

exactly and I find it insulting when people say that only those on the left can be against racism. I am neither left or right.

[bovril]

exactly and I find it insulting when people say that only those on the left can be against racism. I am neither left or right.

I think you need to read his post again....

[MooseBreath]

Are you saying that only 'Lefties' have compassion and are not racists? I tend to think that those that you have in quotes are the ones that are the racist and uneducated ones because they believe what the tabloids say.

No, that's certainly not what I was saying. Do words have completely different meanings to you or something?

[Voll Blau]

Having worked with several Eastern Europeans (Czech, Romanians, Poles) in the past I haven't a bad word to say about them. They had a great work ethic in a menial job, spoke excellent English (better than many of their native colleagues), were forever asking questions about our culture and history, and went back home after a few months or a couple of years after arriving. The problem is English people who are content in their prejudices against whoever (Eastern Europeans, Muslims, homosexuals etc) and don't actually bother to talk to and engage with those they will happliy sneer at and blame all society's ills on from behind a computer screen.

[FoxesAreBlue]

I have to say that I come into contact with a lot of people from Poland, Latvia, Czech Republic, Algeria and probably many more and I've found them all to be very pleasant and I speak to many of them on a regular basis.

[Rincewind]

There was a programme on the other night about people coming here to be married. One had been here several years and was a taxi driver and started off as a cleaner just to do work. They all said they came here for the work. One was from Romania and was a army cadet and wanted to join the British army when granted a citizenship. He said he felt he belonged here more than his own country of origin. They all came here because they wanted to improve their lives. Should that be a fault and they be blamed fior wanting to do this? Should they not have the same right as all of us to live a better life if they want it?

[MooseBreath]

I dont think many people have a problem with hard working immigrants, though it clearly places strain upon public services and can also drive down wages. If we were to adopt the approach whereby we allow anyone who wants a better life into the country then we'd be talking tens of millions of unskilled workers from poor countries all over the world flooding into our cities. There would be mayhem. Obviously there needs to be some kind of control, and yes that will mean rejecting entry to lots of really nice, hard working people. This country is not a charity. It is not the world's soup kitchen. The lives of citizens living here should be a massive prority over giving some foreigners an easy pass to improved financial status in their home country.

[bovril]

I dont think many people have a problem with hard working immigrants, though it clearly places strain upon public services and can also drive down wages. If we were to adopt the approach whereby we allow anyone who wants a better life into the country then we'd be talking tens of millions of unskilled workers from poor countries all over the world flooding into our cities. There would be mayhem. Obviously there needs to be some kind of control, and yes that will mean rejecting entry to lots of really nice, hard working people. This country is not a charity. It is not the world's soup kitchen. The lives of citizens living here should be a massive prority over giving some foreigners an easy pass to improved financial status in their home country.

Good post, I don't think I could disagree. Just try and keep an open mind when it comes to Bulgarians and Romanians. They are not poorly-educated, they are not all racist football hooligans and they certainly do not live in the kind of poverty some of the British press would have you believe.

[Rincewind]

I believe there is already a skill level requirement for immigrants but like the British unemployed they cannot find the jobs to match their skills so take lower paid jobs. It may be the case that in some areas that because they are willing to do the jobs employers are taking advantage of this and reducing the hourly rate. Part time and agency work is on the increase. Using these methods is a way for employers to get away with paying minimum wages. With agency workers they do not have to pay holiday pay or guarantee a period of contract. Same with part time. They can use and release workers to suit slack and busy times. Some may agree with it but it falsifies the figures of unemployed and means that more lower paid now claim benefits.

[Captain...]

There were a few things I always thought to be obvious about this open borders thing, but it appears I was in the minority:

If you have desirable and undesirable places to live and no barriers to movement then people will flock to the desirable places thus making them undesriable as they become over crowded, more expensive and not enough jobs, by that point the undesirable places will become more desirable as they will have more jobs and cheaper accommodation. Factor into that national pride and families, and to me it seemed obvious that people would leave poorer countries such as Poland and come to richer countries like the UK and send some of the wealth back to Poland, Poland prospers the UK suffers until it is about the same, then there is no reason to be in the UK instead of the home land so they return, over a period of time all of the countries within the EU will even themselves out on an even level of prosperity, Europe is strengthened as a result even if some of the countries such as the UK and Germany are comparatively weaker than they were.

External factors have obviously affected that, such as the economic collapse, but it has affected all of Europe.

The problem is that more countries have joined before we have had the chance to find that balance.

The other problem is countries are still thinking of themselves and not as a European collective, and until we address some points on that front, such as the cost of living in the UK compared to say Spain or Poland is so much higher that it is so much better financially to do an unskilled job in the UK than it is elsewhere. For example I was talking to a Portuguese colleague of mine and the minimum wage for a 40 hour week over there is around 450 euros, in the UK it is over £1000. Until the minimum wages are changed to become comparative or the pound drops to the point where £1000 = 450 euros, we will always get an influx of unskilled workers from Europe.

This is the problem while we still stubbornly fight to be the best in Europe, rather than do the best for Europe, we will continue with this immigration problem.

[MooseBreath]

If countries at large should be happy to revert to mean, what about individual salaries? You won't get £500 per day any more, maybe £30 if you're lucky. But that's ok because if no country should be allowed to benefit from their own success and no country should suffer because of their failures, then surely no worker should get paid more because he works harder and is more highly skilled, and no worker should get paid less because they do **** all?? Everything should revert to mean regardless?

You really do make some sickening posts, shrapnel.

[Parafox]

so thats bound to happen here is it?

Yes, wait and see.

I am of Romanian decent and I wouldn't have the feckers here. You can see already the amount of Romanian beggars on the streets (I can spot them a mile away) particularly in London. It's a fact that that the beggars make money which is senbt back to the "overlords" in Romania who live lavish lifestyles.

Sure, some will be here for genuine work, but i know what the majority are like. It's no co-incidence that Gypsies are also called Romanies.

[ADK]

I don't know why we are forced to allow all these immigrants into the country, have we really lost the right to set our own immigration policy?

This sort of thing makes it harder for the unskilled workers who were born here to find work. If our economy was booming and employment was high, this would be a great way of increasing the size of the workforce. Unfortunately neither of those things are true.

[Parafox]

I sympathise with poor people in other countries but that does not mean i am comfortable with my hard earned tax money being handed to them on a plate. It is not my fault their country has failed them and I don't see why I should have to pay for their mistakes.

I

don't see a mass influx of Greeks to this country. (although I generally agree with what you've said on this topic)

[Captain...]

If countries at large should be happy to revert to mean, what about individual salaries? You won't get £500 per day any more, maybe £30 if you're lucky. But that's ok because if no country should be allowed to benefit from their own success and no country should suffer because of their failures, then surely no worker should get paid more because he works harder and is more highly skilled, and no worker should get paid less because they do **** all?? Everything should revert to mean regardless?

You really do make some sickening posts, shrapnel.

And your ability to read what you want, and not what is written never ceases to amaze me.

I'm not expressing an opinion on what should happen, only on what is happening, and what will continue to happen until something changes.

The ideal would be for the rest of Europe to pull themselves up to the same level as us and Germany, and offer the same standard of living and minimum wage we do, but that is very unlikely to happen so the other extreme is for the rest of Europe to drag us down kicking and screaming.

While our minimum wage is more than twice what it is in Portugal and other EU states http://en.wikipedia....by_minimum_wage there will be a constant influx of unskilled yet willing workers, the same is true of benefits, our benefit are considerably higher than other EU member states, so you will also get an influx of benefit scroungers, in the same vein tax dodgers moving where the tax is the lowest.

On the positive side it should mean that job seekers will move to where the jobs are, which is what it was intended for, if you want to evaluate the benefit of the freedom of movement in the EU, you have to look at the benefit of the movement of genuine job seekers improving the economy, compared to the negatives of Free loaders, tax dodgers and scroungers.

There is a middle ground that will look to find a compromise between European countries where the real incomes are the same, but you would still get problems where by 1117, is more monetarily than 485, even if it is the same in real terms.

At the moment the UK seems determined to fight Europe, and that will no be good for us or Europe and if we are unable to work with them then we might as well leave.

[absolutelegend]

I don't know why we are forced to allow all these immigrants into the country, have we really lost the right to set our own immigration policy?

This sort of thing makes it harder for the unskilled workers who were born here to find work. If our economy was booming and employment was high, this would be a great way of increasing the size of the workforce. Unfortunately neither of those things are true.

This.

Simply put, now is not the right time for this to be happening. We should have the powers in this country to effectivly control immigration based on the situation of our country at the time in question. If we haven't then something has gone seriously wrong.

p.s. can we please stop talking about race. race and immigration are totally different, and in my mind not linked.

[digitalalba]

More scare stories from the immigrant hating Mail...shocker.

I used to read the mail online just to post comments and pee the constantly paranoid and scared mail readers off, but it actually got depressing its truly astonishing how many close minded people that are out there.

The Daily Mail are sponsors of multiculturalism, so they're hardly anti immigrant. They report this stuff to make the masses believe that someone is on the case regards the negatives that immigration and multiculturalism bring us.

In reality, its not lefties that are organising chaos in the western world, no, lefties, given the chance, would have FUBARed yonks ago. Its the elite that create chaos, have been doing so for hundreds of years. Even the Romans did it. Lefties are the little helpers of the elite.

Sadly, there is a group of very wealthy banksters, business men and women and the like who want to keep hold of their power (strength) over us, to do so, we the masses must never gain an individual and/or collective community spirit that would make us believe that we can have proper power over our own lives.

red labour, blue labour, yellow labour, they're all the same, they all work effectively for the elite. Yes they all want to be PM and will fight eachother to get it, but anyone who try's to get in on the act, red, blue and yellow labour stick together and fight them off.

'We' fought Gaddafi off to protect innocent citizens, yes, well those 'hard done to citizens' are now doing this http://barnabasfund.org/UK/News/News-analysis/Editorial-Christianity-in-Libya-threatened-as-Islamists-grow-in-strength.html?&quicksearch=libya

Do the elite like war? Do they like to create scenarios of division?

http://barnabasfund.org/UK/News/Archives/Lent-Prayer-2013-Egypt.html?&quicksearch=egypt

http://barnabasfund.org/UK/News/Archives/Deliberate-attacks-on-churches-by-rebels-in-Syria-condemned-as-war-crimes.html

Certainly looks that way.

Race riots in England a plenty, mass racial murder, they love chaos, and they'll do anything to create it.

'We' fought off saddam hussein, yes, saddam hussein was an elitest puppet http://wherebearsroamfree.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/american-oppression-saddam-hussein.html

Even the bloody edl have been given zionist support because the elite need asians out into the street looking like bad muckers, its working.

'al queada' and american invention http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/jul/08/july7.development 8th paragraph down, wheres Robin Cook now hmm

Bin Laden, the Ladens are good friends with the Bush family http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/09_18_01_bushbin.html

"BCCI was closely tied to American and Pakistan intelligence. Its clients included the Afghan rebels, and the brother of Osama bin Laden, Salem. Salem bin Laden named Houston investment broker James R. Bath as his business representative in Texas, right after George W. BushÕs father became CIA director in 1976. By 1977, Bath invested $50,000 into juniorÕs first business, Arbusto Energy, while Osama bin Laden would soon become a CIA asset. George W. BushÕs FBI director Robert Mueller was part of the Justice DepartmentÕs questionable investigation of BCCI. (On BCCI, the bin Ladens, and the Bushes, see the books, The Outlaw Bank, A Full Service Bank, and Fortunate Son)." Further details of the business and financial relationships between the Bush and bin Laden family are found in Peter Brewton's 1992 bookThe Mafia, CIA and George Bush. BCCI, incidentally, was founded by a Pakistani."

Bin Laden studied at Oxford University http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1595205.stm

Cuts, unemployment up, mass society division = ?, = chaos.

[ADK]

And your ability to read what you want, and not what is written never ceases to amaze me.

I'm not expressing an opinion on what should happen, only on what is happening, and what will continue to happen until something changes.

The ideal would be for the rest of Europe to pull themselves up to the same level as us and Germany, and offer the same standard of living and minimum wage we do, but that is very unlikely to happen so the other extreme is for the rest of Europe to drag us down kicking and screaming.

While our minimum wage is more than twice what it is in Portugal and other EU states http://en.wikipedia....by_minimum_wage there will be a constant influx of unskilled yet willing workers, the same is true of benefits, our benefit are considerably higher than other EU member states, so you will also get an influx of benefit scroungers, in the same vein tax dodgers moving where the tax is the lowest.

On the positive side it should mean that job seekers will move to where the jobs are, which is what it was intended for, if you want to evaluate the benefit of the freedom of movement in the EU, you have to look at the benefit of the movement of genuine job seekers improving the economy, compared to the negatives of Free loaders, tax dodgers and scroungers.

There is a middle ground that will look to find a compromise between European countries where the real incomes are the same, but you would still get problems where by 1117, is more monetarily than 485, even if it is the same in real terms.

At the moment the UK seems determined to fight Europe, and that will no be good for us or Europe and if we are unable to work with them then we might as well leave.

Personally i'm all for anything EU with exception of a federal Europe and federal European laws. We should be able to subscribe to a piece of EU legislation if we want to but not be forced to.

[Captain...]

Personally i'm all for anything EU with exception of a federal Europe and federal European laws. We should be able to subscribe to a piece of EU legislation if we want to but not be forced to.

It depends, I think there are certain things that need to be controlled by Europe if we want to be part of the eu, and the economy is the big one, I think for it to work it needs uniform economic control, including benefits, taxation and wages.

[The Year Of The Fox]

This country is too full regardless of who's filling it. We should clamp down on immirgation full stop as well as adopting something like China did with their One Child Policy.

There aren't enough jobs to go round, the NHS is at capacity, there aren't enough homes being built, schools are over subscribed and benefit scroungers are rinsing our economy. (and we have no money to improve any of the above situations)

Not solely blamed on immigrants by any stretch, but it doesn't help.

I had to at the inevitable responses on here. 'Its the Daily Mail' blah blah blah.

You lefties claim to advocate free speech and equal opportunities- But only as long as it tallies with your views right?

[MooseBreath]

And your ability to read what you want, and not what is written never ceases to amaze me.

I'm not expressing an opinion on what should happen, only on what is happening, and what will continue to happen until something changes.

The ideal would be for the rest of Europe to pull themselves up to the same level as us and Germany, and offer the same standard of living and minimum wage we do, but that is very unlikely to happen so the other extreme is for the rest of Europe to drag us down kicking and screaming.

In your earlier post you kept discussing a "problem" which centred around inequality among the EU, and often seemed to suggest that the UK should happily concede ground for the good of europe. I've read the post again and still got the same impression. You've backtracked in this latest post. Plus you've made a right mess of your font sizes, so all things considered I'll still be filing your posts under "well off pretend liberals talking crap".

[Captain...]

This country is too full regardless of who's filling it. We should clamp down on immirgation full stop as well as adopting something like China did with their One Child Policy.

There aren't enough jobs to go round, the NHS is at capacity, there aren't enough homes being built, schools are over subscribed and benefit scroungers are rinsing our economy.

Not solely blamed on immigrants by any stretch, but it doesn't help.

I had to at the inevitable responses on here. 'Its the Daily Mail' blah blah blah.

You lefties claim to advocate free speech and equal opportunities- But only as long as it tallies with your views right?

And you righties can't have a sensible debate without bringing personal politics into it.

Free speech doesn't mean that people should be able to stir up hatred and fear to sell newspapers.

[The Year Of The Fox]

And you righties can't have a sensible debate without bringing personal politics into it.

Free speech doesn't mean that people should be able to stir up hatred and fear to sell newspapers.

I read the first 3 posts on Page 1. Why else would the OPs post be dismissed so quickly?

debating immigration and possibly giving the opinion that it can be/is a bad thing is not stirring up hatred. Its just someone with a different view to you!

[Captain...]

In your earlier post you kept discussing a "problem" which centred around inequality among the EU, and often seemed to suggest that the UK should happily concede ground for the good of europe. I've read the post again and still got the same impression. You've backtracked in this latest post. Plus you've made a right mess of your font sizes, so all things considered I'll still be filing your posts under "well off pretend liberals talking crap".

It is a problem, as I discussed, you give people freedom to move wherever, and you have one country paying more in wages and benefits than any other, people are going to flock there. You have 2 options on this, look after your own interests or adapt to the eu and sacrifice some self control. The solutions are either conform to eu economic control or leave, this half measure we have at the moment where we want all the benefits without any of the negatives is not going to work, for the reasons outlined in previous posts.