Thatcher Dies

[leicsmac]

But we live in this country by two things , Democracy and capitalism. She and the Tory party of those times worked within those limits. As she and her party were returned for three terms of office the electorate must have been happy with what she was doing or she would have been out at the first chance?

Only enough of the electorate to get voted in. One of the foibles of democracy is that you can have power if 49.9% of the voters hate you. That said, it's the best form of Government that's been attempted, as Churchill said. In fact I'd be in favour of it being applied more liberally in government matters.

That said, she was lucky to get re-elected the first time - combination of a Labour Party in shambles and a lucky opportunity to engage in a military conflict to boost the old patriotic fervour helped her a lot. Of course it wasn't her fault that her political opponents couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

I dislike capitalism because of the proviso that in this day and age money buys power. Acquisition of material wealth through hard graft as she encouraged is no bad thing (if that's what floats your boat in this life) but I've seen far too many people who have become twisted through that acquisition of wealth and use it to dominate others. Money buys political power these - it always has done, it's human nature, and those with that kind of power seek to use it. Again, that's not her fault, but I'm always going to view the concentration of money (and therefore power) in the hands of the few as a really bad thing. And that is the natural outcome of unregulated capitalism. Or even REGULATED capitalism in the end, because those who make the regulations end up in bed with those who have the money.

There needs to be a balance struck somewhere.

She helped replace it with the service industry which has been our cash cow for decades now and is the only reason we're still clinging onto first world status. We're not exactly blessed with abundant natural resources in this country. It's a small island with a relatively large population. The mines were winding down anyway. Would you have preferred that the government subsidised keeping them open, at a loss, just to keep some people in work? Where would the money to subsidise the dying industries have come from?

Financial services are something completely immaterial, and it was a mistake to put our entire economy in the hands of something like that as it was so subject to the whims of the world economy. What's banking or trading on the stock market to a coal miner or steel worker? Look what's happening now - the fastest recovering nations are the ones who still have manufacturing industries supporting their economies.

I'm not saying we shouldn't have offered financial services as a cornerstone of our economy, but we should have had something solid to fall back on if it lost value (which it has done in the last few years, at great cost). We still have abundant natural resources, both coal and shale gas, that could be used to generate jobs. Also, there are a wealth of smart people educated in this country in the STEM disciplines, so we could generate a lot of money from high-tech industry too. But the investment simply isn't there, and those people are moving to where it is.

The coal industry and other manufacturing industries needed to be streamlined, not destroyed. We put all our eggs in one basket economically, and that was a huge error.

Edit: And yes, subsidising jobs is better than people losing jobs and then having to claim Government money in benefits. Either way money has to be spent.

[Deucalion]

Jim and Anthony?.

Unfortunately not.

[Deucalion]

Well, I think it's fair to say, people have pretty much stuck to their entrenched positions on Margaret Thatcher. I haven't budged an inch and I don't think anyone else has either.

One thing I would like to say, is that I have learned a lot from some of the posts on here. My position has not changed; but I am better armed with facts and argument to back up my position. So, well informed and reasoned posters, thanks for your input.

Maggie is dead and buried and for me, this thread is too.

Over and out.

[Finnegan]

Best thing about the day.

The myth of being most hated woman in Britain completely smashed. Whole world sees a respectful crowd paying it's respects.

I thought you'd quit? Admit it, you can't.

And she was hated by many, hence why she's frequently described as divisive. I don't think even many liberals claim that "everyone" hated her.

I certainly know more people that loathe the woman than adored her but then myself and my family have worked largely in the public sector most our lives and come from the South Wales coalfield.

The British are largely a respectful people, I think, we're mostly sensible and reasoned and not as extreme as our American cousins. Her funeral was always likely to go off without much incident, that doesn't mean she's magically become the Queen mother in the popularity stakes.

If you can have lived through the last few weeks and you DON'T think she massively splits opinion you're beyond psychological help.

[purpleronnie]

And if you can't see she did both good and bad then your deluded.

[cambridgefox]

I thought you'd quit? Admit it, you can't.

And she was hated by many, hence why she's frequently described as divisive. I don't think even many liberals claim that "everyone" hated her.

I certainly know more people that loathe the woman than adored her but then myself and my family have worked largely in the public sector most our lives and come from the South Wales coalfield.

The British are largely a respectful people, I think, we're mostly sensible and reasoned and not as extreme as our American cousins. Her funeral was always likely to go off without much incident, that doesn't mean she's magically become the Queen mother in the popularity stakes.

If you can have lived through the last few weeks and you DON'T think she massively splits opinion you're beyond psychological help.

Spot on,whereas I live in a Conservative stronghold where the amount of union flags flying at half mast yesterday was incredible.My father was Director of transport for Cambs Council ( humblebrag)and was lucky to retire at 50,mainly due to Thatchers policies working in his favour,hit home yesterday as it was 2 years yesterday since he died of cancer at 66.He had 16 years of good living,whereas if this had not happened ,1 year.just worked in his favour,but such is life.

We have local council elections 2 nd May where my neighbour is running for Labour,I believe I mentioned it before but was quite high up in Unite Union.This man is the nicest,most trusting and all round top bloke.He will be getting mine and the wife's vote for sure,he won't get anywhere near winning,due to our political area,but the Conservative guy who has won from year dot is a lazy twvt who does fvck all for anybody,I float due to selfishness for me and the family,but most in my area don't even think about their vote,which irks me.

[Bellend Sebastian]

The Prime Minister of Hearts.

She's with Diana and Jade now. Just let her be

[Alf Bentley]

The Prime Minister of Hearts.

She's with Diana and Jade now. Just let her be

She was the people's prime minister and that is how she will stay, how she will remain in our hearts and minds forever.

A day like today is not a day for soundbites, really. But I feel the hand of history upon our shoulders....and people who have dealt with me think that I'm a pretty straight sort of guy....

Now where's that bloke who thought Blair wasn't a ham actor?

Big irony that Maggie's funeral was nationalised, though, isn't it?!

[Burmesefox]

She helped replace it with the service industry which has been our cash cow for decades now and is the only reason we're still clinging onto first world status. We're not exactly blessed with abundant natural resources in this country. It's a small island with a relatively large population. The mines were winding down anyway. Would you have preferred that the government subsidised keeping them open, at a loss, just to keep some people in work? Where would the money to subsidise the dying industries have come from?

It strikes me that we were not allowed to subsidise miners but we are quite happy to subsidise farmers - both essential commodities for the country. Anything to do with the fact that farmers are 99.99% tory? Not sure myself but just putting it our there. The fact is that when the mines closed whole communities were decimated and we are still realing from the effects today - just look at those areas and the people that live there. The gap betweeen the rich and poor widened at that point.Most that live in protected middle class areas (such as where i do in Harborough) just have absolutely no idea of the destitution of the lower classes. It's pretty obvious when you see the coraltion of crime to income that education and investment in the lower classes is the key to all of this. Povety is the by product of the capitalist society we are in now and if we wish to eradicate it then we need to throw money at it by education - and I'm not just talking about academia; I mean life skills (for instance cookery IMHO should be compulsory until pupils leave school as some people cannopt even identify vegetables lkike celeriac let alone a sweet potato or butternut squash or a fvcking cauliflower). I digress...... you talk about natural resources but just look at Germany with a skilled workface and huge manufacturing base. Rededucation and training would have meant that we could have had that but, for instance, our car industry died with errrrrr Thatcher.

[flowwolf]

It strikes me that we were not allowed to subsidise miners but we are quite happy to subsidise farmers - both essential commodities for the country. Anything to do with the fact that farmers are 99.99% tory? Not sure myself but just putting it our there. The fact is that when the mines closed whole communities were decimated and we are still realing from the effects today - just look at those areas and the people that live there. The gap betweeen the rich and poor widened at that point.Most that live in protected middle class areas (such as where i do in Harborough) just have absolutely no idea of the destitution of the lower classes. It's pretty obvious when you see the coraltion of crime to income that education and investment in the lower classes is the key to all of this. Povety is the by product of the capitalist society we are in now and if we wish to eradicate it then we need to throw money at it by education - and I'm not just talking about academia; I mean life skills (for instance cookery IMHO should be compulsory until pupils leave school as some people cannopt even identify vegetables lkike celeriac let alone a sweet potato or butternut squash or a fvcking cauliflower). I digress...... you talk about natural resources but just look at Germany with a skilled workface and huge manufacturing base. Rededucation and training would have meant that we could have had that but, for instance, our car industry died with errrrrr Thatcher.

Hmm though I respect your opinion it is just that an opinion. Don't know if you noticed but we have managed to get by well enough without the coal industry and and no left wing miners union left to hold the country to ransome. That is why Thatcher and her cabinet set out to destroy the power thay had over the elected government of the day. No more three day weeks no more blackouts and best of all no more Scargills.

As for the motor industry the unions did a pretty good job of scaring off potential and ongoing car manufactures from ever stting up here , because of the ridiculous amount of undustrial actions . If you want to lay blame for both industries bitting the dust look no further than the unions.

[leicsmac]

Hmm though I respect your opinion it is just that an opinion. Don't know if you noticed but we have managed to get by well enough without the coal industry and and no left wing miners union left to hold the country to ransome. That is why Thatcher and her cabinet set out to destroy the power thay had over the elected government of the day. No more three day weeks no more blackouts and best of all no more Scargills.

As for the motor industry the unions did a pretty good job of scaring off potential and ongoing car manufactures from ever stting up here , because of the ridiculous amount of undustrial actions . If you want to lay blame for both industries bitting the dust look no further than the unions.

We're just going round in circles now. The hardline approach taken by both sides destroyed our manufacturing industries.

And are we really getting by well with just the service industries right now, compared to other nations who are actually making stuff?

[flowwolf]

We're just going round in circles now. The hardline approach taken by both sides destroyed our manufacturing industries.

And are we really getting by well with just the service industries right now, compared to other nations who are actually making stuff?

Getting by well enough to pay for millions of benefit scroungers.

[FoxyPV]

Getting by well enough to pay for millions of benefit scroungers.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ON BENEFITS ARE ACTUALLY IN WORK.

[leicsmac]

Getting by well enough to pay for millions of benefit scroungers.

Not the question I asked.

Edit: Don't you think placing all our eggs in one basket economically wasn't the best idea, especially considering the current financial crisis that has hit the banking industry (and therefore our economy) really hard?

[purpleronnie]

Getting by well enough to pay for millions of benefit scroungers.

I know your probably too young but it was so much easier to claim during thatcher, you could go years without ever having an interview about your benefits and you never had to prove you were actually looking for work. No doubt theres a large number of people who have no interest in working just like in any other country, but believe me its never been harder to claim and keep claiming than now.

[Burmesefox]

Getting by well enough to pay for millions of benefit scroungers.

I assume that is a light hearted exageration? most benefit receivers are perfectly entitled to what they receive of course there is a number that aren't but millions? No, maybe thousands. The "benfit scrounger" is, to a certain extent, a lot of spin - makes great news and galvanises the proliteriat against their own - divide and rule.

Actually "galvanises ..against their own" - bit of an oxymoron there.

[flowwolf]

THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ON BENEFITS ARE ACTUALLY IN WORK.

Prove it.

[flowwolf]

Depends on you living enviroment. I personaly know at least a dozen benefit bums who just keep knocking out kids knowing full well that the state will not see children go without. Although the kids do go without of course, because the money given for them goes on the fathers beer , fags and dope and the mothers online bingo. Certainly not wasted on condoms.

They have the art of being unemployable down to T. It's simple for them they have been out of work so long no employer will look at them. They just go through the motions of applying knowing full well they will not get taken on. One benefit bum I know who lives two doors down from my mother on New Parks has never worked had nine kids and when I asked him why he had never worked his reply was honest if not infuriating . He said he could not get a job that would pay him as much as he got in benefits for nine kids, end of.

If people are honest enough we all know someone who is an idle bastard and lives off the rest of us , it's so easy once you are in the system to be a long term unemployed.

[Deucalion]

While it is much easier, and lazier, to stick to tired arguments and dubiously acquired knowledge, the following challenges many's accepted thinking that Thatcher and the coalition's austerity measures actually make any sense.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22223190

Go Keynes !! Wooo !!!

[ADK]

Saw Milliband is finally starting to come out with some sensible things. Pledging to outspend Cameron.

[MooseBreath]

While it is much easier, and lazier, to stick to tired arguments and dubiously acquired knowledge, the following challenges many's accepted thinking that Thatcher and the coalition's austerity measures actually make any sense.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...gazine-22223190

Go Keynes !! Wooo !!!

It doesn't really though, does it.

[MooseBreath]

most benefit receivers are perfectly entitled to what they receive

I wouldn't say they are entitled to anything

[MooseBreath]

It strikes me that we were not allowed to subsidise miners but we are quite happy to subsidise farmers - both essential commodities for the country. Anything to do with the fact that farmers are 99.99% tory? Not sure myself but just putting it our there. The fact is that when the mines closed whole communities were decimated and we are still realing from the effects today - just look at those areas and the people that live there. The gap betweeen the rich and poor widened at that point.Most that live in protected middle class areas (such as where i do in Harborough) just have absolutely no idea of the destitution of the lower classes. It's pretty obvious when you see the coraltion of crime to income that education and investment in the lower classes is the key to all of this. Povety is the by product of the capitalist society we are in now and if we wish to eradicate it then we need to throw money at it by education - and I'm not just talking about academia; I mean life skills (for instance cookery IMHO should be compulsory until pupils leave school as some people cannopt even identify vegetables lkike celeriac let alone a sweet potato or butternut squash or a fvcking cauliflower). I digress...... you talk about natural resources but just look at Germany with a skilled workface and huge manufacturing base. Rededucation and training would have meant that we could have had that but, for instance, our car industry died with errrrrr Thatcher.

So you would have kept the mines open forever to avoid some people becoming unemployed and some areas getting poorer? And you would have paid for it with an assumed bottomless pot of money?

Don't know why Germany is always held up as such a model economy. Their manufacturing industry isn't that great. It's worth about 75% more than ours and that is achieved with a population about 30% larger. Our manufacturing industry is still bigger than our financial services industry. It was always going to be difficult to hold onto things like car manufacturing when our economy was flying because they are laregly export businesses and a strong pound is bad news if they're based in the UK.

[flowwolf]

While it is much easier, and lazier, to stick to tired arguments and dubiously acquired knowledge, the following challenges many's accepted thinking that Thatcher and the coalition's austerity measures actually make any sense.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...gazine-22223190

Go Keynes !! Wooo !!!

Ah but they are not tired arguments they are facts. Philpott was not a one off there are thousands just like him in any town or city. Nothing tired about that it was there for all to see it just took that scumbag to set fire to his own home for the public to see a prime example of the benefit culture. Nothing dubious about that was there ?

[leicsmac]

Ah but they are not tired arguments they are facts. Philpott was not a one off there are thousands just like him in any town or city. Nothing tired about that it was there for all to see it just took that scumbag to set fire to his own home for the public to see a prime example of the benefit culture. Nothing dubious about that was there ?

Prove it.