Woolwich

[Rincewind]

A lot of people are being conditioned by groups like the EDL certain newspapers and some politicians that they must put the blame on anyone but themselves or the ones in power. Anyone not like themselves or a more vulnerable. Disabled, pensioners foreigners etc.

Of course this will not be seen because like the extremists they believe they are right.

[Harry - LCFC]

Nice sound bites. This is our country why the hell do WE need to work with Muslims to stop them murdering us ? So you think the scum who murdered that young soldier were sane ? would you say the same if a E.D.L member felt so strongly and went and beheaded a random Muslim in the street would you say he was sane ?

Your post was either a troll in very bad taste or you need psychiatric help yourself.

 

You don't need to be a psychopath to murder someone. It's a horrible thing to do but it doesn't require any mental illness, just a brutal personality. And I don't really understand why you think CPF "needs psychiatric help" either - he's attributed the terrorist attacks to anger amongst extremists brought about by British actions in the East which is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

 

Domestically if people like you keep blaming the entire Muslim community for the actions of individuals then you're going alienate them and make things worse. I also agree with what CPF said, that "tolerance breeds tolerance and extremism breeds extremism." Help out a bit by accepting those who want to live peacefully.

[MooseBreath]

A lot of people are being conditioned by groups like the EDL certain newspapers and some politicians that they must put the blame on anyone but themselves

You of all people complaining of a blame culture

[flowwolf]

You don't need to be a psychopath to murder someone. It's a horrible thing to do but it doesn't require any mental illness, just a brutal personality. And I don't really understand why you think CPF "needs psychiatric help" either - he's attributed the terrorist attacks to anger amongst extremists brought about by British actions in the East which is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.

 

Domestically if people like you keep blaming the entire Muslim community for the actions of individuals then you're going alienate them and make things worse. I also agree with what CPF said, that "tolerance breeds tolerance and extremism breeds extremism." Help out a bit by accepting those who want to live peacefully.

 

That depends on individuals idea of what constitutes insanity. Hitler -Idi Amin- Robert Mugabe all in my opinion insane. You do not have to have the outward appearance of being insane to be insane. 

 

 

Ideology and religion are two of the main culprits that alter a normally sane person into a rabid psychopath. If someone allows either of these to evils to dictate their physical actions in to murdering others then they are  insane .

 

Tolerance also breeds contempt . The only thing that will stop these people from doing what they are setting out to do is get them before they get you. No amount of tolerance or dialogue would have stopped those two idiots who murdered that soldier or stopped the  bombers on 7/7. Why because they were mentally unbalanced through the brainwashing hatred fed to them by equally evil unbalanced men.

 

I do not blame all Muslims that would be a ridiculous thing to do. I would imagine as a community they are feeling very vulnerable at the moment and at a lost as to what to do about it, and for the record I deplore any violence by right wing idiots on the Muslim community as a whole. But what they are going to have to accept is a hardening of views towards them from the rest of British society unless they do more to root out those among them hell bent on murder as a political tool. 

[Rincewind]

Hitler came to power because of Germany's financial situation and his ability to spread propaganda about who was responsible. He started with the poor, disabled and most vulnerable of the Country's society and used right wing newspapers to spread rumours about Jews and other foreigners. Afraid that they might be 'pigeon holed' a lot of the public started to nod their head in agreement and join him.

 

I think Hitler had the same idea as you.

 

The only thing that will stop these Jews from doing what they are setting out to do is get them before they get you

 

Sounds familiar?

 

The only thing that will stop these people from doing what they are setting out to do is get them before they get you

[flowwolf]

Hitler came to power because of Germany's financial situation and his ability to spread propaganda about who was responsible. He started with the poor, disabled and most vulnerable of the Country's society and used right wing newspapers to spread rumours about Jews and other foreigners. Afraid that they might be 'pigeon holed' a lot of the public started to nod their head in agreement and join him.

 

Sounds familiar?

 

 

Yes sounds insane.

[Captain...]

That depends on individuals idea of what constitutes insanity. Hitler -Idi Amin- Robert Mugabe all in my opinion insane. You do not have to have the outward appearance of being insane to be insane.

Ideology and religion are two of the main culprits that alter a normally sane person into a rabid psychopath. If someone allows either of these to evils to dictate their physical actions in to murdering others then they are insane .

Tolerance also breeds contempt . The only thing that will stop these people from doing what they are setting out to do is get them before they get you. No amount of tolerance or dialogue would have stopped those two idiots who murdered that soldier or stopped the bombers on 7/7. Why because they were mentally unbalanced through the brainwashing hatred fed to them by equally evil unbalanced men.

I do not blame all Muslims that would be a ridiculous thing to do. I would imagine as a community they are feeling very vulnerable at the moment and at a lost as to what to do about it, and for the record I deplore any violence by right wing idiots on the Muslim community as a whole. But what they are going to have to accept is a hardening of views towards them from the rest of British society unless they do more to root out those among them hell bent on murder as a political tool.

Of course if you apply your own definition of sanity then you are right, but from a medical point of view these were not the actions psychopaths, they were rational and deliberate, as was the way the spoke afterwards. That it was made it so disturbing.

Let me put it another way, if you honestly believed that killing someone would prevent the needless death of hundreds of people would you do it? Lets say Osama bin Laden, if you had had the opportunity to kill him after 9/11 after he had pledged more attacks on innocents would you have done it? Would you have murdered him in cold blood? Do you think that the marines who did kill him were psychopaths?

[leicsmac]

That depends on individuals idea of what constitutes insanity. Hitler -Idi Amin- Robert Mugabe all in my opinion insane. You do not have to have the outward appearance of being insane to be insane. 

 

 

Ideology and religion are two of the main culprits that alter a normally sane person into a rabid psychopath. If someone allows either of these to evils to dictate their physical actions in to murdering others then they are  insane .

 

Tolerance also breeds contempt . The only thing that will stop these people from doing what they are setting out to do is get them before they get you. No amount of tolerance or dialogue would have stopped those two idiots who murdered that soldier or stopped the  bombers on 7/7. Why because they were mentally unbalanced through the brainwashing hatred fed to them by equally evil unbalanced men.

 

I do not blame all Muslims that would be a ridiculous thing to do. I would imagine as a community they are feeling very vulnerable at the moment and at a lost as to what to do about it, and for the record I deplore any violence by right wing idiots on the Muslim community as a whole. But what they are going to have to accept is a hardening of views towards them from the rest of British society unless they do more to root out those among them hell bent on murder as a political tool. 

 

Certainly can't disagree with that. There has to be better liasing with the Muslim community and better communication too. The way this is going to be solved is through the wider actions of the moderate Muslim community.

 

I do also think however that although the nutters who murdered Lee Rigby and blew themselves up on 7/7 couldn't be negotiated with and you can't show tolerance to them, there are those who would use those incidents to display a lack of tolerance for the community as a whole. We need more incisive action to go after the nutters themselves and more to the point the clerics that turn them into such - this will not only aid the problem but prove that the wider Muslim community is not at fault for the situation.

[Captain...]

Certainly can't disagree with that. There has to be better liasing with the Muslim community and better communication too. The way this is going to be solved is through the wider actions of the moderate Muslim community.

 

I do also think however that although the nutters who murdered Lee Rigby and blew themselves up on 7/7 couldn't be negotiated with and you can't show tolerance to them, there are those who would use those incidents to display a lack of tolerance for the community as a whole. We need more incisive action to go after the nutters themselves and more to the point the clerics that turn them into such - this will not only aid the problem but prove that the wider Muslim community is not at fault for the situation.

 

I disagree, I think they could have been reasoned with, the ones that can't be reasoned with are the ones pulling the strings at the top, the suicide bombers and Woolwich killers didn't decide to do it on a whim, they are just the foot soldiers the drones, they were convinced to do it, brainwashed, manipulated, radicalised, whatever you want to call it.

[Rincewind]

There is an old saying, 'One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.'

 

If a person A is told often enough that person B is the enemy then eventually they may start to believe it.

 

Ie.

 

Muslims are terrorists

Single mothers have children just for child benifits

Unemployed don't want work

Homeless are druggies and alcoholics

Guardian and Independent readers are lefties

 

All the above are stereotyped assumptions put forward and believed by sane people. Thankfully the majority on FT are able to think rationally.

[Guest MattP]

Every post you make at the minute is screaming 'my benefits are in trouble'.

[leicsmac]

I disagree, I think they could have been reasoned with, the ones that can't be reasoned with are the ones pulling the strings at the top, the suicide bombers and Woolwich killers didn't decide to do it on a whim, they are just the foot soldiers the drones, they were convinced to do it, brainwashed, manipulated, radicalised, whatever you want to call it.

 

I think that the indoctrination they use is so successful though that these kind of people cannot be 'talked down' though, not before they do something terrible. If you can get them to a safe place and have time to talk to them, then perhaps you can break them of the brainwashing, but the more immediate priority would definitely be making the area safe. 

 

Do agree that the real problems are the clerics who spout this stuff in the first place. We have to go after the generals, not the foot soldiers.

[Guest MattP]

And what a great job we are making of that.

Anjem was preaching last week again with police protection. If the answer is going after the hate preachers and madrassers teaching the intolerance we've lost already.

[Rincewind]

Every post you make at the minute is screaming 'my benefits are in trouble'.

As are many others including those who were not in trouble before. It is costing more in hardship payments than a year ago. More working families are claiming than a year ago. There are not enough houses with less rooms for those hit by the bedroom tax.

There are a lot of issues that are not reported in the normal national press. You have to search for the stories.

[leicsmac]

And what a great job we are making of that.

Anjem was preaching last week again with police protection. If the answer is going after the hate preachers and madrassers teaching the intolerance we've lost already.

 

"A wise ruler thinks twice before directing violence against someone because he does not like what they say."

 

However the next line of that passage includes: "Vimes said nothing. He himself directed violence daily and with a certain amount of enthusiasm against people because he didn't approve of them saying things like 'Give me all your money' or 'What are you going to do about it, copper?'"

 

In short, there should be a right to free speech, but some things that are said clearly are meant to infringe the rights of others, and for that alone Choudary should be picked up. And bounced on his head a few times. 

 

Can't we get him for tax evasion or something?

[Rincewind]

Terry Pratchett has a nice way of saying sensible things.

[Guest MattP]

As are many others including those who were not in trouble before. It is costing more in hardship payments than a year ago. More working families are claiming than a year ago. There are not enough houses with less rooms for those hit by the bedroom tax.

There are a lot of issues that are not reported in the normal national press. You have to search for the stories.

Yep that's what happens when a country is skint.

Even Labour and Miliband admitted yesterday they won't be opposing the benefit cuts anymore, you know when that happens we are in trouble.

Delighted to hear it, vindicated everything the Tories have done regarding welfare.

"A wise ruler thinks twice before directing violence against someone because he does not like what they say."

However the next line of that passage includes: "Vimes said nothing. He himself directed violence daily and with a certain amount of enthusiasm against people because he didn't approve of them saying things like 'Give me all your money' or 'What are you going to do about it, copper?'"

In short, there should be a right to free speech, but some things that are said clearly are meant to infringe the rights of others, and for that alone Choudary should be picked up. And bounced on his head a few times.

Can't we get him for tax evasion or something?

Considering we pay him 25k a year in benefits I doubt it.

[leicsmac]

Yep that's what happens when a country is skint.

Even Labour and Miliband admitted yesterday they won't be opposing the benefit cuts anymore, you know when that happens we are in trouble.

Delighted to hear it, vindicated everything the Tories have done regarding welfare.

Considering we pay him 25k a year in benefits I doubt it.

 

Still think it's a bit unfair on that score that the people who had nothing to do with the crisis in the first place are getting it in the kidneys and the ones who kicked it all off are getting away scot-free. Still, way of the world.

 

Yeah, I was being facetious about Anjem.   Where are the other kinds of trumped-up charges when you need them?

[Guest MattP]

Still think it's a bit unfair on that score that the people who had nothing to do with the crisis in the first place are getting it in the kidneys and the ones who kicked it all off are getting away scot-free. Still, way of the world.

 

Yeah, I was being facetious about Anjem.   Where are the other kinds of trumped-up charges when you need them?

 

To be honest I'd rather we followed through on deportation, I'm sick of paying for this cnut  be it in prison or on the outisde.

 

The ones who did it aren't getting away with it (well Tony Blair apart), the rich are paying more tax under the Tories than Labour  and the working poor are paying less.

 

The underclass are being raped yes but personally I think that's a fantastic thing, no one should be sat at home all day earning more than someone who is doing a full time job.

[leicsmac]

To be honest I'd rather we followed through on deportation, I'm sick of paying for this cnut  be it in prison or on the outisde.

 

The ones who did it aren't getting away with it (well Tony Blair apart), the rich are paying more tax under the Tories than Labour  and the working poor are paying less.

 

The underclass are being raped yes but personally I think that's a fantastic thing, no one should be sat at home all day earning more than someone who is doing a full time job.

 

The ones who did it are the corrupt American boys in the big investment banks who gambled other people's money. And others who mis-sold credit and mortgages and started the whole thing off. Last time I checked none of them were in jail, which is where they should be. 

 

And the truly rich don't pay any tax - that's what tax havens and crooked accountants are for. Money not circulating and being concentrated in the hands of the few is not a good thing. But this is a discussion for another thread.

 

As for Choudary - I totally agree, give him the boot.

[flowwolf]

Certainly can't disagree with that. There has to be better liasing with the Muslim community and better communication too. The way this is going to be solved is through the wider actions of the moderate Muslim community.

 

I do also think however that although the nutters who murdered Lee Rigby and blew themselves up on 7/7 couldn't be negotiated with and you can't show tolerance to them, there are those who would use those incidents to display a lack of tolerance for the community as a whole. We need more incisive action to go after the nutters themselves and more to the point the clerics that turn them into such - this will not only aid the problem but prove that the wider Muslim community is not at fault for the situation.

 

 

No but the religion they follow is.

[flowwolf]

Terry Pratchett has a nice way of saying sensible things.

 

Christ I never thought of the relevance of that until now.   

[flowwolf]

As are many others including those who were not in trouble before. It is costing more in hardship payments than a year ago. More working families are claiming than a year ago. There are not enough houses with less rooms for those hit by the bedroom tax.

There are a lot of issues that are not reported in the normal national press. You have to search for the stories.

 

Why don't they " search for jobs " instead ?

[Rincewind]

I give up. I should be bold if I took any of this seriously from tearing my hair out.

[flowwolf]

I give up. I should be bold if I took any of this seriously from tearing my hair out.

 

 

Go for it then a homeless titmouse can line it's nest with the strands.