Woolwich

[leicsmac]

I think this is where the most important response should be, but in robustly defending what we're doing in Afghanistan.  It is the radicalised muslim groups that kill the most muslims around the world.  UN stats show that in 2009, 2010 and 2011, the Taliban caused 76%, 75% and 80% of all civilian casualties in Afghanistan.  It is the Taliban and other extreme radical islamist groups that kill muslim men, women and children around the world.

 

El Empty mentioned earlier that only a tiny minute percentage of muslims know anything about any terrorist plots and he's right, so there's not much they can do there.  However, where I believe they can help is with challenging the narrative put out by the likes of Choudery and Al-Muhajiroun, that British forces are murderers killing muslim men, women and children with impunity.  

 

Not withstanding that muslim men and women have served and do serve our armed forces with distinction, but the question is do they agree with foreign policy?  I think if you look at our foreign policy, it stands up in Afghanistan.  Do British Muslims really support the Taliban?  The Taliban are a totalitarian regime that banned girls from education after the age of 8.  Would any British muslim really want their daughters or sisters growing up under a regime like that?  Of course not, the way of life under the Taliban is I imagine as horrifying to a British muslim as non-muslim.  Our forces are attempting to protect a fledgling democracy and battle a Taliban insurgency, an insurgency that we've seen from the figures and reports thinks very little of civilians, killing muslim men, women and children.  There was even that horrific shooting of the poor 13 year old schoolgirl for speaking out in support of female education.

 

Yet despite this, the narrative is that British forces murder muslim men, women and children with impunity.  If the narrative was challenged, maybe there would be less people being attracted to the extreme elements of the community with less people becoming radicalised.  The narrative needs to be the truth that the biggest murderer of muslims in the world today are the extremist groups.  Facts and figures bear this out. 

 

As much as I agree with this (and with the rest of the passage, come to that) changing someones ideology, especially if they've lost someone personal to them, is really difficult to do. The people that listen to the likes of Choudary already have the fundamentalist view - that's why they're listening to them in the first place. It's like telling a member of the EDL that white soldiers kill Muslim kids out in Afghanistan - they don't want to hear it because it conflicts with their simplistic view of the whole thing. 

 

That's not to say that we shouldn't try for more positive media and challenge those views (mainly for the benefit of the wider community) but I think most often the extremists on both sides are so entrenched they're not going to change their views no matter what you say or do with them.

[Vacamion]

Would any British muslim really want their daughters or sisters growing up under a regime like that?  Of course not, the way of life under the Taliban is I imagine as horrifying to a British muslim as non-muslim.  

 

With great regret, I think that some British muslims would.

 

 

Womens lib (and indeed gay rights) have not reached and been accepted by all communities in the UK (and I concede that this applies as much to, say, devout Catholics as it does to muslims).

 

I completely agree with the main points you make about who does most of the killing and the need to change the narrative though...

[Guest Bilo]

Muslims fought along side the Nazis in WWII.

 

Some Bosnian Muslims fought in the Waffen SS, backed up by the Grand Mufti of Jersualem while Palestine was under a British mandate, but that was more a case of 'my enemy's enemy is my friend.'

 

The Bosnians, like the Ustashe Croats, wanted to end what they perceived as Serb hegemony in Yugoslavia. As brutal as the Muslim SS units were, they had absolutely nothing on the Ustashe. Incidentally, the bitterness caused by the sheer brutality led directly to the break-up of the Balkans and all the associated ethnic cleansing fifty years later.

 

Similarly, the Arabs in Palestine wanted to halt large scale Jewish immigration to the then British colony caused by Nazi persecution in Europe. They saw Britain as defending Jewish interests over Islamic ones, and the decision was taken by Amin Al-Husseini to support the Nazis. It's a decision the Palestinians have paid for ever since as the Jews and Zionists who founded Israel treated them with suspicion from the very start in 1948. Indeed, the Arab world as a whole distrusted Britain due to the implementation of the Balfour Declaration which effectively guaranteed a Jewish homeland in Palestine after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Many felt that supporting the Nazis would mean no Jewish homeland in Palestine and this to some was a desirable outcome. In retrospect, a massive error on the part of the Arabs as Israel has had them on the back foot ever since.

 

It's worth remembering though that the Pan-Islamism that pervades among some radical Muslims now is a fairly recent invention. Indian Muslims fought for Britain in their thousands against the Japanese in particular or fought for French colonial forces in North Africa. The upshot was that far more Muslims fought against the Nazis than for them.

 

Short response: Some Muslims sensed the Nazis as an opportunity to solve their problems. They did not necessarily agree with the policies of National Socialism and the Arabs, as a semitic race like Jews, could never have prospered in Hitler's Aryan world anyway.

[breadandcheese]

As much as I agree with this (and with the rest of the passage, come to that) changing someones ideology, especially if they've lost someone personal to them, is really difficult to do. The people that listen to the likes of Choudary already have the fundamentalist view - that's why they're listening to them in the first place. It's like telling a member of the EDL that white soldiers kill Muslim kids out in Afghanistan - they don't want to hear it because it conflicts with their simplistic view of the whole thing. 

 

That's not to say that we shouldn't try for more positive media and challenge those views (mainly for the benefit of the wider community) but I think most often the extremists on both sides are so entrenched they're not going to change their views no matter what you say or do with them.

 

It's not necessarily about trying to change Choudery and his ilk's ideology.  It is about those muslims growing up who are starting to form their own world view.  If a British muslim gets to his/her twenties believing that British forces murders muslims abroad, they are going to be attracted to the preachings of Choudery and his ilk, as it conforms with his/her viewpoint.  If a British muslim gets to his/her twenties understanding that the biggest murderers of muslims worldwide are extremist radical groups, they are far less likely to be radicalised.

 

However, I do believe you can change some people's ideology through a battle of ideas.  Admittedly, it takes members of the muslim community to stand up and fight the ideological battle, which I'm sure they're doing.  Remember that for every muslim you can find with a personal story about having lost a loved one, you can find more from those who have lost a loved one to a radicalised extreme islamist group (admittedly, that's abroad, but the point still stands).

[Guest Bilo]

Education and more integration needs to be the answer then. You're far less likely to hate people of another race or religion if you grow up alongside them.

 

What this means for the British brand of multiculturalism is unclear, but the voluntary segregation of certain communities obviously doesn't help.

[leicsmac]

It's not necessarily about trying to change Choudery and his ilk's ideology.  It is about those muslims growing up who are starting to form their own world view.  If a British muslim gets to his/her twenties believing that British forces murders muslims abroad, they are going to be attracted to the preachings of Choudery and his ilk, as it conforms with his/her viewpoint.  If a British muslim gets to his/her twenties understanding that the biggest murderers of muslims worldwide are extremist radical groups, they are far less likely to be radicalised.

 

However, I do believe you can change some people's ideology through a battle of ideas.  Admittedly, it takes members of the muslim community to stand up and fight the ideological battle, which I'm sure they're doing.  Remember that for every muslim you can find with a personal story about having lost a loved one, you can find more from those who have lost a loved one to a radicalised extreme islamist group (admittedly, that's abroad, but the point still stands).

 

No disagreement with any of that. 

[leicsmac]

Education and more integration needs to be the answer then. You're far less likely to hate people of another race or religion if you grow up alongside them.

 

What this means for the British brand of multiculturalism is unclear, but the voluntary segregation of certain communities obviously doesn't help.

 

Yeah. But at the same time, you can't force them to integrate. Which is why (in the short term certainly) education is the key. People are afraid of what they don't understand, and educating them about other cultures will encourage the integration, which will then follow.

[Guest MattP]

Education and more integration needs to be the answer then. You're far less likely to hate people of another race or religion if you grow up alongside them.

 

What this means for the British brand of multiculturalism is unclear, but the voluntary segregation of certain communities obviously doesn't help.

 

Nail on head.

 

It's amazing just how badly we have failed at doing this over the last twenty years and when you look at places like Manningham, Tower Hamlets or Lozells you can't hold out much hope of reversing it.

[leicsmac]

Nail on head.

 

It's amazing just how badly we have failed at doing this over the last twenty years and when you look at places like Manningham, Tower Hamlets or Lozells you can't hold out much hope of reversing it.

 

Totally agree. But then we have to try, and try soon - or what is the alternative? More segregation, more division, more mistrust...and possibly a mass race war at the end of it?

[Guest MattP]

Totally agree. But then we have to try, and try soon - or what is the alternative? More segregation, more division, more mistrust...and possibly a mass race war at the end of it?

 

Of course we have to try. I'm not saying give up.

 

The alternative is quite frankly too frightening to even think about. I just pray it that does happen the people who caused it bear the brunt of it.

[leicsmac]

Of course we have to try. I'm not saying give up.

 

The alternative is quite frankly too frightening to even think about. I just pray it that does happen the people who caused it bear the brunt of it.

 

Indeed. 

[Guest Bilo]

I do worry about the direction the EDL are taking though.

 

This seems to have radicalised them and made them more violent. While I certainly won't go as far as to equate their violence with the downright savage violence of Islamic extremists; it only takes a handful of nutters to really escalate matters and having seen the EDL in action more than once, I would say the organisation is a fertile breeding ground for that kind of nutter.

 

The most disturbing thing about the nature of Lee Rigby's murder, apart from the savage brutality of it, is the fact that it shows what chaos a couple of nutters can cause with an unplanned, low-tech attack. Not to mention the fact that it's virtually impossible to guard against. 

 

Someone topping Andy Choudary on his way to collect his dole or a pipe bomb in East London Mosque could both easily be done by someone with little skill and intelligence yet could cause massive, massive unrest. 

 

The country needs to tackle extremists of all hues head on in my opinion.

 

As if to prove my point.....

 

Apologies for it being the Daily Fail.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2333199/Police-rush-home-hate-preacher-Anjem-Choudary-protect-family-threats-blames-Camerons-crusade-turning-young-Muslims-terror.html

[breadandcheese]

Totally agree. But then we have to try, and try soon - or what is the alternative? More segregation, more division, more mistrust...and possibly a mass race war at the end of it?

 

 Whilst I agree that segregation is not ideal, I don't believe it automatically leads to radicalisation or race wars.  We've always had a degree of segregation in this country.  Whether it was segregation on the basis of class or segregation on the basis of race/religion (other groups also live in clusters, be they hindu, jewish, etc), we've not seen class wars or race wars, primarily because it's always tiny fringe elements of society who want this.

[leicsmac]

As if to prove my point.....

 

Apologies for it being the Daily Fail.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2333199/Police-rush-home-hate-preacher-Anjem-Choudary-protect-family-threats-blames-Camerons-crusade-turning-young-Muslims-terror.html

 

The scary thing is all it would take is one lunatic with a gun or knife to hand out a little natural justice to Choudary...and all hell would break loose.

[Guest MattP]

As if to prove my point.....

 

Apologies for it being the Daily Fail.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2333199/Police-rush-home-hate-preacher-Anjem-Choudary-protect-family-threats-blames-Camerons-crusade-turning-young-Muslims-terror.html

 

Think they would have been that quick to whisk a Tommy Robinson/Nick Griffin and his family away after the death threats they get?

 

Just a question.

[Guest Bilo]

Think they would have been that quick to whisk a Tommy Robinson/Nick Griffin and his family away after the death threats they get?

 

Just a question.

 

Probably, the police always take credible death threats very seriously.

 

The real question is 'would the press have been as quick as to report the fact that police were protecting Robinson/Griffin?'

[Guest MattP]

Probably, the police always take credible death threats very seriously.

 

The real question is 'would the press have been as quick as to report the fact that police were protecting Robinson/Griffin?'

 

Press or Daily Mail?

[Guest Bilo]

The scary thing is all it would take is one lunatic with a gun or knife to hand out a little natural justice to Choudary...and all hell would break loose.

 

Exactly.

 

In some ways, Choudary's death would do a lot of people a favour. It'd save the tax payer a fortune and take a hate monger off the streets. 

 

The fall out would have the potential to be horrific though, it'd cause a lot more harm than good. As tempting as it is to think otherwise.

[Guest MattP]

Exactly.

 

In some ways, Choudary's death would do a lot of people a favour. It'd save the tax payer a fortune and take a hate monger off the streets. 

 

The fall out would have the potential to be horrific though, it'd cause a lot more harm than good. As tempting as it is to think otherwise.

 

Surely the 99.99% moderate Muslim community would be just as happy as us and it would be fine.

 

Just read the Mail for the first time in years after you put that link up, this is the sort of thing that fuels racism in normal folk/pub racists.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208204/An-overdraft-Thatll-200-Lloyds-TSB-15-youre-Muslim.html

[MooseBreath]

As if to prove my point.....

Apologies for it being the Daily Fail.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2333199/Police-rush-home-hate-preacher-Anjem-Choudary-protect-family-threats-blames-Camerons-crusade-turning-young-Muslims-terror.html

Fair play to choudary, his wife looks fit.

[Guest MattP]

Fair play to choudary, his wife looks fit.

 

[Vacamion]

Fair play to choudary, his wife looks fit.

 

You SOOOO should have used the   emoticon...

[Guest Bilo]

Surely the 99.99% moderate Muslim community would be just as happy as us and it would be fine.

 

Just read the Mail for the first time in years after you put that link up, this is the sort of thing that fuels racism in normal folk/pub racists.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208204/An-overdraft-Thatll-200-Lloyds-TSB-15-youre-Muslim.html

 

No interest is paid on an Islamic bank account either.

You SOOOO should have used the   emoticon...

 

[Guest MattP]

No interest is paid on an Islamic bank account either.

Surely we should all be being treated the same though?

 

This is my point, if we aren't, we won't be getting anywhere anytime soon.

 

You can tolerate different views on what we eat and drink, ways we dress etc I don't like the way Halal is killed but I'll even tolerate that if it brings peace.

 

But different banks accounts as well? Come on, if we are going to take 'gambling' that literally crossing the street would be banned for them.

[leicsmac]

Surely the 99.99% moderate Muslim community would be just as happy as us and it would be fine.

 

Just read the Mail for the first time in years after you put that link up, this is the sort of thing that fuels racism in normal folk/pub racists.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1208204/An-overdraft-Thatll-200-Lloyds-TSB-15-youre-Muslim.html

 

I'm sure the 99.99% moderate Austrian community were fine right up to their Archduke being assassinated (mind you, that war was more ancient aristocracy being bastards and everyone else getting caught up in it). Killing someone important has been a casus belli far too many times and a cause for nutters to draw the more moderate elements in.

 

That being said, if you could prove it was just a lone nut (like in the case of most of the American Presidential assassinations, conspiracy theories notwithstanding) the situation might not go tinderbox because there would be no target for retaliation. On the other hand, some morons might not be prepared to listen  in any case and automatically target who they even think of being the guilty party and you get your tinderbox anyway.

 

Complex issue.