FAO Grammar Nazis

[Rincewind]

Not necessarily my views.

 

Middle-class problems: Apostrophes

By Simmy Richman

Let's make this clear from the start: grammar and punctuation are important. As one joker recently put it, "[They] can be the difference between knowing your shit, and knowing you're shit." Yup. Grammar and punctuation can change the narrative when a panda with a poorly edited wildlife manual walks into a café and orders a sandwich. They really can. Truss me on this.

But there is another side to this debate, and it is one that really reveals itself only after half a lifetime spent working with words. In a nutshell, it is this: many educated middle-class people seem to have taken it upon themselves to use a person's lack of understanding of how apostrophes work as a tool with which to patronise those who may be foreign, dyslexic, under-educated or simply uninterested.

We have even given a name to this phenomenon: the greengrocer's apostrophe. "Darling, I simply couldn't buy my fruit from that establishment. I mean, the sign on the produce outside read 'APPLE'S and ORANGE'S', for goodness sake!"

Well woop di doo and la di da. Bully for you. You understand how the apostrophe works, and that poor sod who barely made it out of the war-torn place of his birth and then had to adjust to a foreign language and culture doesn't. Give yourself a hearty pat on the back. Well done, you.

So yes, attention to linguistic detail is important. But punctuation pedants take note: whether the sign reads "APPLE'S" or "APPLES" really isn't worth worrying about. The core meaning is surely the same.

 

[Vacamion]

Suggesting that the greengrocer's apostrophe is the frontier of a class war is only going to appeal to those people who are obsessed by class war.

 

Oh...

 

   

[Guest Bilo]

I sincerely hope that wasn't written by hand, it would be an awful waste of ink if it was. 

[Rincewind]

I think it was meant to be tongue in cheek.

[Guest Bilo]

The basic message of it is that grammar is important but you mustn't see it as important, even in your own mind, unless you want to be seen as a massive racist, snob or elitist shitbag because the other person might be foreign, dyslexic, thick or lazy.

[AoWW]

The basic message of it is that grammar is important but you mustn't see it as important, even in your own mind, unless you want to be seen as a massive racist, snob or elitist shitbag because the other person might be foreign, dyslexic, thick or lazy.

 

[Jordan]

I wonder if it's not necessarily class war that the author is pining for, but rather a clash between prescriptive linguists and descriptive grammarians. No quarter will be asked, and no quarter will be given. In the end, though, the descriptivistas will prevail, though the realm of the English language they will rule will resemble little the land of their forefathers.

[Harry - LCFC]

Still get irritated when I see spaces between commas. I'm always left wondering why someone elected to put them there.

 

Things like "your/you're" and using apostrophes on plurals are understandable.

[Webbo]

I hate those descriptive grammarians.

[MC Prussian]

 

Sieg geil!

[Rincewind]

That's true with a lot of things. In your last sentence you include thick and lazy. Could they not appear that way because they are dyslexic?

[Webbo]

That's true with a lot of things. In your last sentence you include thick and lazy. Could they not appear that way because they are dyslexic?

Is there a subject you won't get on your high horse about?

[Guest Bilo]

That's true with a lot of things. In your last sentence you include thick and lazy. Could they not appear that way because they are dyslexic?

 

The author of that piece clearly differentiated 'dyslexic' from 'under-educated' and 'simply uninterested.'

 

I'm not sure if 'too lazy to use correct grammar' has become a legitimate lifestyle choice or not now, I am somewhat out of the loop on bolitics.

[I am Rod Hull]

Is there a subject you won't get on your high horse about?

 

Ken loves horses 

[Rincewind]

Is there a subject you won't get on your high horse about?

I see it as not making presumptions about somebody I do not know.

[Webbo]

I see it as not making presumptions about somebody I do not know.

Ken you make ridiculous presumptions about people you don't know everyday on here.

[Guest Bilo]

As pithy as I am being, there is a serious point to be made here.

 

Whether the writer likes it or not, accurate spelling and grammar are important in the modern world. We are living in a world with high unemployment and an increasing number of jobs for which a good academic profile are required. In 2006, a survey of employers revealed that 77% of employers would be put off by CVs with poor spelling and grammar. The figure may now be even higher when single jobs often have hundreds of applicants. The harsh truth is that many employers will throw the poorly spelt CVs in the bin before even going into them in detail.

 

Surely it is worth making that extra effort to ensure your application letter is accurately written to give you a bit of a boost? It is, after all, a tough world out there. Telling people that spelling and grammar are 'unimportant' and an obsession only of the middle classes is massively counter productive and damaging, especially to the 18-24 age group who have been hit particularly hard by the effects of recession.

 

The reality in the modern world is that you need to be able to spell, differentiate between your/you're and there/they're because employers wish to know that you have a good level of education and can communicate effectively and professionally. I will admit that I am something of a stickler for correct grammar, hardly surprising given my profession, but this is only because I understand the importance of it. 

[Rincewind]

Fair enough. next time I moan about texting you can have a go at me.

 

The article did say under-educated and uninterested which I took to mean something completely different to thick and lazy which then I would tend to agree.

 

I don't think he was saying it was unimportant as much the way some people are spoken to because their grammar is not as good. Grammar is important but there is a way to be spoken to.

 

Maybe I was being too picky over the meaning of words.

[MooseBreath]

I think it's important in official documents like your CV, but in everday life it doesn't seem to hold people back in my experience. My current line manager who is a senior partner on a six-figure salary plus a six-figure profit-share often sends out communications with an incorrect 'your' and 'there' or two. My manager in my previous job was a mid-20s guy who shot to the top despite having some of the worst writing skills I've ever seen in a degree-educated adult.

Pedantry doesn't pay, it seems. In an extraverted world it's what you say, not what you write, that really matters.

[AoWW]

[Danno]

I really hate people who have bad grammer online, its really annoying. it can make you look stupid two.

[sphericalfox]

they must be turning in they're graves 

[Rincewind]

TBH I found the article quite amusing. I shall check his other stuff to see if it's a trend.

I am not a fan of bad grammar even though mine is far from perfect. The simple ones are the most annoying. Things like your and you're should be known at an early age, but I realise that sometimes there may be other barriers to overcome. But if the same errors pop up time and again then that can be irritating

 

A few years back I knew a bloke through a writing club. Once he agreed to look at some of my stories and I took them to his flat. He was an ex-linguistic professor at Liverpool University. He told me he hated bad use of the English language. He used to sit and watch the News Parliament and  go through papers noting down every mistake bad English usage such as double negatives then write letters to them pointing it out. I thought that was a little OTT but kept quiet. I can't remember what feedback I got for my stories if any or I would have been damaged for life.

 

I don't like being told by my spell checker to spell realise as realize. The rest is OK I think.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

What annoys me, is that many people from overseas know,, and can speak our language better than many of our own people.

 

No wonder this country is going to the dogs, Not being able to speak or write one's own language correctly, shows how we are one of the most illiterate nations in the western world..

 

Take note, you illiterates, and feel ashamed, as indeed you should.

[ADK]

WOOF