Harry - LCFC Posted 16 December 2014 Posted 16 December 2014 Tell that to Rigby's family. No good looking at it from the perspective of those affected as it'll always be as bad as it can be. You have to look at it from the perspective of society as a whole. The reality is that there are far more dangerous things out there than terrorism. If these uncommon events are all terrorism amounts to then perhaps we needn't be as concerned as we are.
Guest MattP Posted 16 December 2014 Posted 16 December 2014 The reality is that there are far more dangerous things out there than terrorism. If these uncommon events are all terrorism amounts to then perhaps we needn't be as concerned as we are. They are but the things that are unavoidable we just have to accept. What I can't accept is when either people who shouldn't be here in the first place, or people who have already committed henious acts, or people who have already engaged in promoting terrorism, or are already known to the police as being likely to do things this are allowed to actually carry out an act like this on innocent members of the public. That's what absolutely has to stop and if the authorities can't do it you are going to see far more serious problems than we already have seen.
Guest MattP Posted 16 December 2014 Posted 16 December 2014 15 children blown to pieces by Al Queda in Yemen with car bombs. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-30504641 It actually doesn't even make the front page of the news it's that common now.
leicsmac Posted 17 December 2014 Posted 17 December 2014 I think you are seriously underestimating the strength and capablities of these people. They don't want to run the whole World and that's impossible of course at the minute, but they certainly have the capabilitie to run a large part of the Middle East and cause chaos across the Western World while they do it. When the shahādah is being held up in shop windows in Sydney you no that no part of the Western Liberal World is immune from this. The Kurds are claming that ISIS have 200,000 men, that's a pretty big army when every single one is prepared to die for the cause. They already control a pretty large part of Iraq and Syria. They are in a good position, they know the West is sick of war and the most we are going to do is send in a few drones and fly by drops. Don't know if you have ever read any of Daqib but they know they have taken to a target of trying to inspire lone wolf attacks across the globe in the last few months and I don't think this is something that is going away, he may have no connection to ISIS but he looks to have certainly been inspired by them using these tactics. What's really worrying though is the impunity these people seem to have over us, have a read about Musa Cerantonio, he's considered by the CIA to one of the top two 'spiritual guides' for fighters who want to go and fight for ISIS and he's wandering around the streets of Melbourne today free to do and speak as he pleases. We've done the same with Abu Hamza and Abu Qatada and we have no idea just how many young men they converted to their cause. This has to stop and I have no confidence that anyone is capable of doing it. We actually deserve what we get. I may be underestimating them...but right now IS don't have the power of even a tiny nation state, let along a bigger or more powerful one. And they're by far the most powerful bunch of these wankers active right now. The only power they have is through propaganda. The Internet means everyone has a voice now, and they're pretty effective at using it both to attempt to inspire fear amongst everybody and to attempt to recruit others for their cause. As Harry mentioned above, statistically there are far more dangerous things going on around the world than Islamic terrorism - yet thanks to media and Internet coverage being used very effectively they inspire fear across the entire Western world. And fear is what they want. Fear and the idea of a widespread 'holy' war. If they get one or both of those things, then they win. We should keep doing what we're doing now. Try to starve them of media coverage, deal with each incident surgically one at a time, and give as many of them as possible the most unremarkable, unreported, ignominious deaths as possible. One area that could be improved (and we've both said this before) is pressing upon the Islamic communities to root out and deal with the hate preachers in their midst more effectively in Western nations. A widespread approach isn't going to work here. It never would. The precision approach is what is needed.
Guest MattP Posted 17 December 2014 Posted 17 December 2014 Good luck with getting the Islamic community to root out these people, they won't even grass up their own peadophiles the majority of the time when they know them. This story gets worse about the guy who did this, turns out he was granted asylum in Australia on the back of a completely made up story and in reality he had left Iran as he had stole 200 grand from people in a scam.
purpleronnie Posted 17 December 2014 Posted 17 December 2014 Good luck with getting the Islamic community to root out these people, they won't even grass up their own peadophiles the majority of the time when they know them. This story gets worse about the guy who did this, turns out he was granted asylum in Australia on the back of a completely made up story and in reality he had left Iran as he had stole 200 grand from people in a scam. The Aussies gave him a gun license too despite his criminal record.
Guest MattP Posted 17 December 2014 Posted 17 December 2014 The Aussies gave him a gun license too despite his criminal record. Incredible. Just reading the Pakistan story in depth now and I'm on the verge of tears having to go through some of the things these people did. To make a room full of young children watch their teacher be burnt alive is something I can't comprehend, let alone then turning the guns onto them themsleves. I know everyone wants 'human rights' for all but do we really have to extend it to these people?, they don't deserve them in any way, they are animals. They need to be obliterated in any way, shape or form.
surrifox Posted 17 December 2014 Posted 17 December 2014 Australia turned down an extradition request from Iran some time ago as they could not be sure that he would not face torture under their somewhat "tough on crime and tough on the causes of crime " penal system- (winching the accused up by his neck using a crane)
leicsmac Posted 17 December 2014 Posted 17 December 2014 Incredible. Just reading the Pakistan story in depth now and I'm on the verge of tears having to go through some of the things these people did. To make a room full of young children watch their teacher be burnt alive is something I can't comprehend, let alone then turning the guns onto them themsleves. I know everyone wants 'human rights' for all but do we really have to extend it to these people?, they don't deserve them in any way, they are animals. They need to be obliterated in any way, shape or form. I'm as progressive as the next guy, but people who do this abandon their right to be treated like humans, as you say. Find them, bring them in, and lock them up in a box alone so it's decades before they get to find out that the myth of getting seventy-two virgins in the afterlife is in fact bullshit. But they are the only ones who should be punished.
Guest MattP Posted 17 December 2014 Posted 17 December 2014 You see I just don't find the idea of treating such people with so much respect as anything like 'progressive' anymore. We are now in situations where we allow our own innocent citizens to be killed in galling circumtances so we can protect the rights of people who dedicate their lives to inciting people to kill the innocent on the basis of religion and sometimes even in the end carrying out the acts themselves. We keep being told 'the alternative is much worse' when in reality we only started doing this in the early 90's, I don't remember our society being that much worse before that. The idea everyone's human rights are going to be trampled on because we allow a few utter ***** to be sent back to Syria or Iran looks to me like complete and utter bullshit. If this is progressive I'm happy to be whatever the opposite is.
Buce Posted 17 December 2014 Posted 17 December 2014 If this is progressive I'm happy to be whatever the opposite is. Regressive.
leicsmac Posted 17 December 2014 Posted 17 December 2014 You see I just don't find the idea of treating such people with so much respect as anything like 'progressive' anymore. We are now in situations where we allow our own innocent citizens to be killed in galling circumtances so we can protect the rights of people who dedicate their lives to inciting people to kill the innocent on the basis of religion and sometimes even in the end carrying out the acts themselves. We keep being told 'the alternative is much worse' when in reality we only started doing this in the early 90's, I don't remember our society being that much worse before that. The idea everyone's human rights are going to be trampled on because we allow a few utter ***** to be sent back to Syria or Iran looks to me like complete and utter bullshit. If this is progressive I'm happy to be whatever the opposite is. Where was I suggesting treating them with respect? I don't think sticking them in a concrete box until the day they die is that. That is what, I think, they deserve. But as I've said repeatedly now, it's the individuals that need to be targetted as they come up. The extremists want increased repression of the Muslim populations in the Western world. They want fear and distrust of them, because then it's so much easier to lure them to their cause. More than anything, they want global escalation. Take them out, while making sure everyone knows it is only them who is responsible. That is the progressive approach. (Of course, whether or not you think we're doing enough to target those individual nutjobs is a topic very much for debate.)
ADK Posted 17 December 2014 Posted 17 December 2014 I don't see why they can't just be sent to a neutral country, with a little money to ensure they won't starve. Send them somewhere that is willing to take them but does not intend to arrest them. Why do we only have the option of allowing people to stay here or deport to their country of origin?
surrifox Posted 17 December 2014 Posted 17 December 2014 I don't see why they can't just be sent to a neutral country, with a little money to ensure they won't starve. Send them somewhere that is willing to take them but does not intend to arrest them. Why do we only have the option of allowing people to stay here or deport to their country of origin? Well if you're talking about Islamist fundamentalists a lot of them seem partial to a bit of kiddy fiddling by the looks of it - I cant think of two many countries neutral or otherwise who would welcome that
Dr The Singh Posted 17 December 2014 Posted 17 December 2014 I may be underestimating them...but right now IS don't have the power of even a tiny nation state, let along a bigger or more powerful one. And they're by far the most powerful bunch of these wankers active right now. The only power they have is through propaganda. The Internet means everyone has a voice now, and they're pretty effective at using it both to attempt to inspire fear amongst everybody and to attempt to recruit others for their cause. As Harry mentioned above, statistically there are far more dangerous things going on around the world than Islamic terrorism - yet thanks to media and Internet coverage being used very effectively they inspire fear across the entire Western world. And fear is what they want. Fear and the idea of a widespread 'holy' war. If they get one or both of those things, then they win. We should keep doing what we're doing now. Try to starve them of media coverage, deal with each incident surgically one at a time, and give as many of them as possible the most unremarkable, unreported, ignominious deaths as possible. One area that could be improved (and we've both said this before) is pressing upon the Islamic communities to root out and deal with the hate preachers in their midst more effectively in Western nations. A widespread approach isn't going to work here. It never would. The precision approach is what is needed. I don't think you can relate the Taliban attacks to Western style propaganda, for example the Pakistan and Afghan Taliban are not aware of the propaganda of any extreme, in fact the Pakistan Taliban is the off shoot Kashmir extremist and suicide bombers and terrorist, long before the Internet arrived. The madrassars and extreme elements have been there from day one, generations and. Generations are taught those extreme views, no propaganda will change that. The fact is no matter what the west do, Islamic extremism will exist and will grow. All that's happening now is that the west in the hap hazard way are attacking those principles hence increasing the pace of extremism.
Dr The Singh Posted 17 December 2014 Posted 17 December 2014 Where was I suggesting treating them with respect? I don't think sticking them in a concrete box until the day they die is that. That is what, I think, they deserve. But as I've said repeatedly now, it's the individuals that need to be targetted as they come up. The extremists want increased repression of the Muslim populations in the Western world. They want fear and distrust of them, because then it's so much easier to lure them to their cause. More than anything, they want global escalation. Take them out, while making sure everyone knows it is only them who is responsible. That is the progressive approach. (Of course, whether or not you think we're doing enough to target those individual nutjobs is a topic very much for debate.) As stated the Pakistan Taliban, who are ex mujahideen and terrorist from the Kashmir Indo pak dispute, are ingrained through there madrassars, not from anti Western propaganda. The fact that the Pakistan government created the mujahideen and further the Pakistan Taliban should accept some responsibility. Sometimes you reap what you sow
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