LCFCJohn

More to the point, we have to ask the same question of next season. It seems inconceivable that we could but what we know is that there is no floor at all in how far we can fall under this ownership. I see a lot of other fans assuming we will win the league (plenty saying we will struggle too). But the rot has set in. You don’t go from winning 18 games in 84 across the last 2 seasons and suddenly flip to being able to win 30 or however many this coming season. Not without wholesale change which we know we aren’t getting. So I’m personally resigned to another season of struggle. Will that mean relegation? Maybe not. It might look like mid table but that’s the best I can see us doing. But you’d be a fool not to consider relegation again a real possibility. More likely than promotion anyway.

Once again numerous deaths of teenagers happening from entering bodies of water and getting into trouble. It seems 4 reported including just down the road from myself at Rother Valley in Rotherham. So needless. There seems to be a real lack of awareness about water safety and you only ever hear about it after a series of incidents like now. Should schools be doing more? Surely educating young people on matters like this and road safety is more important than certain parts of the curriculum. Do they cover this and it’s just always going to be certain people don’t take notice? Is it parents not doing enough? Really hard to know but it’s really worrying as a parent.

Been in Norfolk at the coast over the long weekend and it was really nice but I don’t think it was generally as hot over the past few days anyway. Back home today and it’s not enjoyable. I don’t get when people rave about 30c+ temperatures. Mid 20’s is nice, getting up to 30+ is oppressive. It feels like people must just say it to be impressive (as if it is) as I can’t see how people genuinely enjoy this.

Quite disappointed in the French for suspending extra checks. We voted for Brexit, do all the checks necessary and inconvenience people! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp3p2ver9k6o

I think people are focusing on Southampton's punishment as a comparison with big clubs rather than in its own rights. Their punishment is probably fair, maybe the deduction next season is a excessive which I thought they added to be the leverage in an appeal to to fair, whilst retaining the actual punishment (out the play offs). But as always, when smaller teams like Southampton, us, Forest and Everton as well as further down the pyramid get punished, the question always goes to what about the bigger clubs. Not just the Man City thing but that pathetic fine for Chelsea recently. Or the lack of anything for Man Utd for their spending. But Man City and Chelsea mainly. If the authorities dealt with these with enough proportion, there wouldn’t be as much said. Obviously before anyone says anything, he’s different authorities with PL and EFL and different misdemeanours. But we know the PL were quick to punish the rest of us. The EFL are fairly consistent I guess!

Yeah the ‘Burnley’ season is what I suspected was being referred to. On the other hand, we started that season extremely poorly. I didn’t realise Shakespeare has gone as early as 8 games in though having just looked. So I guess a poor start didn’t really matter. But yeah, I remember feeling similarly at the time that we could/should have done better that season. Like I say, Puel gets the rightful, perhaps excessive, criticism for on the pitch but he did more for us that most of the managers we have had over the years in terms of the squad. I always look at how a manager inherited vs leaves us in terms of overall health and it has only ever been Pearson and Puel under KP that come to mind. I suppose you could add Maresca in that we got promoted back although I’m not sure the overall health of the club improved (lumbered with the likes of Winks and Vestergaard). Not that I am turning this into a debate about Maresca and I would include him in that group.

Yep. And you can cherry picks draws and runs etc but we still lost to Slavia Prague in the first Europa season, a weaker side than anyone Villa faced in the knock out rounds this season or Spurs last season. The second season we couldn’t get past was it Spartak Moscow and Legia. We also played Randers in the Conference League run.

Thats fair enough and to be clear, I was genuinely asking as it has been suggested I was saying you are wrong which was not the case. I was asking and you have answered. It’s been a long day, I’m knackered and was thinking quite literally about the format and obviously the format of the knock outs is still 2 legs etc. But yes, I get what you are saying about how it has changed the dynamic of the level of sides etc. Still though, I don’t think it really changes the point I was making as we were still favourites for the Europa and couldn’t even make a mark on the competition down from that. And regardless of who you’re playing, it requires the right mentality to navigate it which was my whole point. We didn’t fall short of top 4 twice and fail to even win the Conference League because we didn’t have the quality or even the resources. It was primarily the weak mentality led by Rodgers. We obviously suffered from injuries in the Covid disrupted season whilst Man Utd got I think, Fernandes back and Spurs Kane? Whilst we lost some to injury. But all we needed was a poor run of form to see it out given how far ahead we were. We didn’t even need average form. But we completely blew up and I don’t think that can’t be blamed on just injuries and lack of January investment. We should still have had enough as we should have this season to not be relegated to L1.

Not just yours, generally at the sheer volume of people who have taken exception to my post highlighting that the string of achievements by similarly sized PL clubs since illustrates it was a failure when people were calling it a positive at the time and jumping on anyone who suggested otherwise. If pulling out net spend figures and who teams played isn’t making excuses, what is it? We were favourites to win the Europa League, got dumped out of the group stage and are the only English team to then not make the final of the Conference league I think unless I’m missing someone. Net spend and who you play doesn’t account for huge mental failure which is what happened to us. We turned up against Roma scared and didn’t lay a glove on them. And the European stuff is one side of it but doesn’t touch upon the collapse twice from the top 4. And by the way, I don’t believe I said the format hadn’t, I asked Cosbeh why which yeah ok, it refers to the shift of clubs from one level to another. But it’s luck of the draw. The semis of the Europa League this season wasn’t made up of powerhouses. Freiburg, Braga and Forest. Villa the standout side obviously.

I’m not sure people defend the on the pitch side under Puel, more that it was the only time since Pearson there has been any cohesion off the pitch in terms of squad building. But even then, as evidenced by what followed, whilst many of those signings were talented, there was a lack of headship and mental strength. I don’t recall us being in a shout for Europe though unless we are talking about the season Burnley qualified? After the title win, my memories are relegation battles and firing managers. 2017 Ranieri, later in 2017 Shakespeare (although perhaps too early in the season to call it a relegation battle despite being bottom 3 at the time he went) and going backwards towards the bottom 3 under Puel. Very selective memories from people who think we were ever a truly stable Premier League club.

Can’t believe so many people are still leaping the defend the European performances and throwing away top 4 twice I just can’t. I’m out!

No but it was a simply point. Many sides now outside the usual suspects have achieved the Europeans wins and top 4 that we failed to do. That shows that as some said at the time, it was poor from us. And as happened then, people are still making excuses for it.

Yeah but they were still not an established club (still aren’t) like the ‘big 5’ now we can exclude Spurs. They were quite early in their development and like I say, arguably have underachieved since then. I’m not sure Newcastle spending that suddenly makes us bottling top 4 twice and being crap in Europe the great achievements they were made out to be at the time to be fair….

Good point. Would it have made a difference to us? Possibly not as we got through the group stage and had that awful performance to Slavia Prague. And then in the following season knocked out in the group and ended up in the knock out stages of the Conference League. Its an interesting thought but what benefit do you think the new group format has given English sides come the knock out rounds?

I think it means there started to be a decline in what had been the ‘big 6’ for a number of years (which ironically we disrupted in 2016). And other sides capitalised on that. I’m sure we had the talent but not the mentality to back it up and get over the line.

It’s not ignoring 2016 or even things that came previously like the League Cups. Nobody will ever achieve what we did in 2016 so it’s not a comparison which was the point of my post. The point is, when we bottled too 4 twice and performed as we did in Europe, and people called that out, they were shouted down by many who claimed we had no right to have expected better in the circumstances. That is the relevance of the comparison and the timeframe. If dropping a 14 point lead to finish 5th was an achievement, what about Villa and Newcastle achieving that in subsequent years showing that the big guns we’re actually there for the taking? If we had no right to compete in the Europa League, how have Villa won at a canter, Forest even got to the semis and serial bottlers Spurs even won. If getting to the semi finals of the Conference League was such an achievement, West Ham winning it and possibly Crystal Palace by next week makes a mockery of the performance we showed. Even the genuine achievements (FA Cup and Shield) have been matched by Palace. Thats why 2016 was not relevant to the point as it is about the Rodgers era and how the majority of fans wouldn’t call for him to go because of these achievements that have prompted be matched or exceeded by numerous PL clubs. @Les-TA-Jon, absolutely agree with your second paragraph and I have said it regularly that it was all about the particular manager rather than club led strategy.

Yeah if you’re looking relative to spend maybe. I was purely looking at the clubs that have achieved in the last 5 years what we failed to, top 4 and CL qualification and European trophies. Palace have arguably surpassed our achievements based on resources. 100% they will should they win next week. Villa again, have done it all. Europa League and top 4 CL qualification. I agree with Spurs almost like they’d see Europa League as a bit of a come down after years of playing in the CL and a final. I just enjoyed classing them as one of the rest of us I’m not sure how much Newcastle had spent at the point they got in the top 4 in 2023 to be fair. You could argue that was an achievement just has they have underachieved since having spent more and not qualified again. West Ham, yeah value for what they have spent you would expect them to have done something and being on the verge of relegation is shocking for them. But they still saw it out where we couldn’t.

Newcastle - CL qualification Villa - CL qualification x 2 and Europa win West Ham - Conference League win Spurs - Europa League win Crystal Palace - FA Cup win, Community Shield win and Conference League win maybe (?) Obviously that’s the achievements of the none biggest clubs in the time since 2021. Sort of dispels the myth at how well we did right? Palace have equalled our achievements with the FA Cup and Community Shield and look like they could go one better if they win the Conference League next week. Newcastle and Villa showed it is possible to not completely bottle finishing in the top 4. Villa and Spurs showed how to navigate the Europa League. Yes, we are more Spursy than Spurs! And West Ham even won the Conference League. Meanwhile, we bottle top 4 and both European competitions. It does water down the achievements a bit when you see other clubs operating at a similar level churning out these achievements.

You know what, I had that game where we blew the 2 goal lead away in December in my head as Hull but that was Bristol City of course! Yes fair enough, they did beat us

As amusing as it all is, Middlesbrough are snitched and don’t deserve to be there themselves. So I guess we have to support Hull….but Hull are crap and couldn’t beat us over the season. Meh, at least L1 has a good final between local rivals and I guess we want Notts to win the L2 play off so we can replace rivalries against Forest, Derby and Cov with Burton, Mansfield and Notts Co!

It’d be a great end to his career story if he goes to Sheffield Wednesday and plays a part in getting them back up under their new ownership to be fair.

I mean it’s pretty funny If our club had been found doing that, I’d be pissed off for them causing controversy and giving a reason to be called out. The fact their fans have been so arrogant about it does make it amusing.

Okoli is one that you’d hope could be moved on. He’s of a good age still, not yet reached his peaked and was part of a failed team rather than being individually one of the worst culprits. You’d imagine there’d be interest from Italy and elsewhere in Europe. The problem as always, what wages is he on? And there’s about €8.5 mill left on his amortisation. I think it doesn’t matter so much for PSR in L1 but still represents what we’d need to break even . Probably likely a loan.

I really doubt he holds any grudges, he wouldn’t have come to watch us if he did and he has never spoken particularly negatively. He did a job, and got an upwards move. He did well from us at the end of the day. But I also doubt he will ‘do us favours’. Man City are a smart club and their players will be sold/loaned out to the maximum benefit of the club. Assuming we aren’t in the market for permanent transfers from them and are talking loans, it will be whether we would be the best move for the players development. Given we are toxic and a black hole for talent, I would not expect Man City to want to loan us anyone for this reason not anything to do with Maresca.

As I said in reply to St Albans, people need to be dealt with regardless of their colour or status. It is more the issue that the right wing lot look to make all the issues about immigration and whilst our protesting about immigrants, literally get caught on camera displaying the very behaviours they would vilify others for. I am not left wing or a ‘looney leftie’. I am central in my political views. I think the boat thing, crime and benefit system need addressing. These are more central right views but I believe Reform are just sowing division and hatred for their own agenda. I also believe we should be more sustainable in terms of our energy and be independent from instability like in the Middle East where possible. This is a more central left view.