Dan

Honestly don't think football's ever been in a worse position in my lifetime when it comes to general discourse. It's just riddled with absolutely boring shit. Bring back debates about the best players or fans.

0-1 loss to me is Burnley or Preston at home growing up. I'm convinced it happened at least 6 times.

We'll never know - they haven't been put in a position where their best manager is Eddie Howe while there are numerous top English managers about. It is quite mad how incapable England are of producing top managers. No English top flight winner since 1992. No European Cup win since 1982.

In a weird way I think Tuchel's a better fit for it than Pep is. I've been way too positive about this appointment for him not to flop is my only fear

I reckon in wages we've paid Vestergaard at least £1mil per top flight appearance.

He's been here for over three years and he's played 12 times for us in the top flight - on six years worth of contract at probably £3mil a year minimum. Doesn't take a financial expert to find out how it's gone to shit here.

This is a goalkeeper who was brought in to primarily play front-footed football in the Championship as well - so he is highly capable of playing both ways. I'll be surprised if he's here in a year.

I don't think it was ever as great as made out but it has gotten worse. It's just more and more focus on it because things have blatantly gone to pot on the pitch as well.

It'll be karma for many at the club if we do go down again.

There are also a few dilemmas in this England side. There are good players but a lot of them in the same position. He'll not be scared to make tough decisions on dropping players where necessary. I am pleasantly surprised by this from the FA. I didn't think they'd actually go for him.

Southgate definitely took England further than we had been but I just don't really see international football as something where you build on previous outcomes. It isn't club football where you're playing every week and training every day. It's a very finite amount of time and games. I don't think what Tuchel does here will have really been shaped by Southgate at all. There aren't really foundations other than raised expectation - something that I think given the calibre of some of our players was going to be there anyway. I do think there's a chance Tuchel completely tanks at England but a lot of what Southgate was championed for I saw scant evidence of in the last tournament - didn't look a happy camp to me or a cohesive team. We fell into that final. Complete fluke and luck of the draw. To be honest I'd argue Southgate achieved a much higher level of performance in 2022 despite only hitting a quarter final.

I always thought it used to be we moved one each a season for the other. Obviously things might've changed.

Games moving to Sunday which aren't on TV is such crap. Wish it would die out. I'm not even talking Europa League here but more the Brighton one for example. Absolutely no need for that to be Sunday or their game before to be Thursday (presumably why this has moved).

I'm pleasantly surprised they're going for Tuchel. International management isn't about 'building' over a long term it's about taking the tools you have and being able to conjure it into something that works, which Tuchel for all his flaws has shown serious ability at at some points of his career. I'm addressing this whole 'building' point because I keep reading it's apparently some betrayal of what Southgate's 'built' and I'd like to know what exactly that is.

I was no Southgate fan at all but I think there was a lot of rubbish written about Carsley's first two games - I don't think you could really aim not beating teams like Ireland and Finland comfortably at Southgate. That tonight is a huge reality check, and a complete embarrassment that England probably won't top this group either. Fair play to Greece. Always got something about them even when they aren't much good.

Completely agree. They have really fumbled this haven't they. I think given it's a season on season thing they release it quite late anyway in November. March almost defeats the point for me. They should do what you've said. I'd take that to be honest. I've never really been 'that' fussed about new versions even though I'll just buy them anyway.

Delayed until March 2025!!! That's a proper fumble. The season bloody finishes in May.

I get the comparison to ours although I still think it was louder than most grounds in England. Quite up and down. Inter was definitely better. I find Juventus quite an odd club - I find it mad how their ground is only 40k and hasn't sold out when they're considerably the biggest club in the country. It was alright but I've been to a lot better. I wasn't aware they'd had a full clamp down on their ultras - that does explain things a bit. I aimed to be by the home teams 'end' for both games and somehow despite research managed to get the wrong end on both occasions so god knows what I was reading. For atmosphere I didn't have a bad seat at Inter though. Near to the Torino end which was very good and you could hear Inter's plenty as well due to the size of it. I'd actually go back to that ground, it's great.

We very much have done it all as well. I know there's something a bit different though when we win for the first time all season in October and I'm not that arsed about missing it. I'll never fully can it but definitely see the case to cut down. I think the social side has very much carried it since covid. I mean its largely been utter shit anyway. Even last season I think we were 'so' fancied that it wasn't particularly rewarding - not to say there weren't good days in there.

I agree with the whole emotional investment point but I wonder if I am just losing it - I had genuinely no regrets about not being at that Bournemouth game and we won it. Something has definitely gone a bit for me. I don't know if it's just years of the club trying to kill the atmosphere that I'd rather see play out here or if it's just age - probably a bit of both really.

It is bad in this country in general. Though I do think we are one of the worst as well. So it's not a strong position. Like I said on the other page, I heard 200 Cagliari fans in a genuinely awful away end arrangement more than I hear the majority of away fans at Leicester. This is proof that the fans just aren't making atmosphere.

Genuinely easy to sort. Ticket was about £35ish and I only decided to go about a fortnight ago. Got a return flight for £90. Turin train return was about £73 but that was my own fault for leaving it to the day and having to get the fast train due to having a flight that night - was doable for £25ish alternatively.

I'm going to Germany again in November and to be honest I'm easy doing pretty much anywhere. I'd go to Spain, France, Denmark, Greece - bloody hell I'm actually going to Moldova in November. Got a lot coming up. Italy is good though. Gets a lot of unfair stick. Only schoolboy error I made was forgetting to take ID and having a minute where I feared I wasn't getting into the ground - my railcard somehow worked and I overheard them say something about me being English so an assumption that I don't legally have to carry it usually. Just something to remember for anyone who goes. Specifically went to this though as I just needed to go to the San Siro. It lived up to the hype as well - as did the Nou Camp when I went there.

And the beauty of it being a shared ground is you can go basically any weekend. You'll also be able to get another game in in the area as its got plenty of teams around there. I wanted to do Monza v Roma as well but didn't risk it - Juve finished half 2ish (could've probably just left early tbf) and Monza kicked off at 6 while my flight from Bergamo was at 11 - although annoyingly it got delayed by an hour and I think if it was scheduled for 12 I would've probably done it, but never mind. I'll likely revisit the area and get another couple done. It's a shame Atalanta's game was on the Saturday as that would've worked perfectly for flying back. Oh and another thing - this was a quite spontaneous thing. I booked it all less than two weeks ago. Signed up to both Juve and Inter's sites and bought a ticket just like that. No membership. No hoops to jump through. Mad idea that'll never catch on here. Must be because Italian teams have never had any history of crowd trouble or anything why they allow it

It is a fantastic ground. I think you're right in some ways but I don't really know why this sort of thing can't be applied to the equivalents in Italy as well. My point about Cagliari's fans were that if we somehow ended up playing Juventus away and got put in that crap wedge of an end, we'd have a 1,500 mute end there and our fans would blame the away end. Yet about 200-300 from Cagliari could make themselves heard on numerous occasions. I think as much as anything I just don't buy the acoustics arguments at all after seeing that. I rarely hear away fans at Leicester so it's not solely a dig at us but teams have ten times the numbers here and you don't hear them.