Police in America

[GaelicFox]

13 hours ago, Dr The Singh said:

 

Not disagreeing but this isn't just the US police, most 3rd world countries with armed police are trigger happy junkies with no respect for life.

Let's be honest America is a 3rd world country for a huge proportion of people that live there 

 

 

[Smudge]

11 hours ago, leicsmac said:

I think we're talking past each other a bit here. I'm saying that the response of the cops when a suspect runs is wrong and if that is what is considered normal in a supposedly world-leading country like the US, then no one should be OK with the system as it is and it urgently needs reform.

 

If you're innocent (or even if you're guilty) and you choose to run from the fuzz in non-threatening fashion for whatever reason, in a civilized country you shouldn't be gunned down. Simple as. (At the very most, you should expect to be brought down by a method guaranteed to be non-lethal.)

 

 

I don't think I am but you are .

I agree with your sentiments but the reality is that if you don't abide by their wishes, you are possibly going to invite police retaliation up to and including getting shot. My point in this is, why do innocent people run away or put up a fight? It never ends well. 

Is that right? Of course not but that's how it rolls over here and for those who choose to claim 'right is might' while being peppered by a Glock is a road to martyrdom.

 

[leicsmac]

11 minutes ago, Smudge said:

I don't think I am but you are .

I agree with your sentiments but the reality is that if you don't abide by their wishes, you are possibly going to invite police retaliation up to and including getting shot. My point in this is, why do innocent people run away or put up a fight? It never ends well. 

Is that right? Of course not but that's how it rolls over here and for those who choose to claim 'right is might' while being peppered by a Glock is a road to martyrdom.

 

I don't accept that status quo, nor do I have nearly so much faith in the criminal justice system to believe that every single innocent person, when confronted with arrest, should meekly submit to it rather than run. There's still far too much corruption in due process and far too many stitch-ups.

 

If people roll over and accept the status quo as you do then it won't change - and it needs to change. Perhaps that's hopelessly idealistic of me, but police response of that kind isn't a set-in-stone reality that should just be accepted. Human action never is.

[Smudge]

Just now, leicsmac said:

I don't accept that status quo, nor do I have nearly so much faith in the criminal justice system to believe that every single innocent person, when confronted with arrest, should meekly submit to it rather than run. There's still far too much corruption in due process and far too many stitch-ups.

 

If people roll over and accept the status quo as you do then it won't change - and it needs to change. Perhaps that's hopelessly idealistic of me, but police response of that kind isn't a set-in-stone reality that should just be accepted. Human action never is.

Admirable sentiments me ole son but easily said. Naivety will get you hurt but that's your choice, so good luck. 

[leicsmac]

6 minutes ago, Smudge said:

Admirable sentiments me ole son but easily said. Naivety will get you hurt but that's your choice, so good luck. 

Naivety gets you hurt, pragmatism gets you (in the end) extinct.

 

But that's only a maybe, and perhaps you're right. For me, words can be turned into deeds on this one and in other areas too, and I haven't had total cynicism brutally beaten into me by the world just yet.

[Smudge]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Naivety gets you hurt, pragmatism gets you (in the end) extinct.

 

But that's only a maybe, and perhaps you're right. For me, words can be turned into deeds on this one and in other areas too, and I haven't had total cynicism brutally beaten into me by the world just yet.

I understand, without people who stand up our rights we'd be in the dark ages and I'm all for that. However, i'd choose my battles and it wouldn't be on a side street in North Carolina with a bone headed cop. 

 

[leicsmac]

8 minutes ago, Smudge said:

I understand, without people who stand up our rights we'd be in the dark ages and I'm all for that. However, i'd choose my battles and it wouldn't be on a side street in North Carolina with a bone headed cop. 

 

Yeah, no disagreement there.

[Trav Le Bleu]

2 hours ago, Smudge said:

My point in this is, why do innocent people run away or put up a fight? It never ends well. 

 

Never assume you know what another person is doing or thinking. It's the easiest way to cock up  in life. People do all sorts of things, for all kinds of reasons that we might not be familiar with - different language, different culture, different religion, different social status, different education, different mental faculties... all sorts of things.

 

But hey, if you shoot FIRST and ask questions LATER, it saves all that.

 

Right?

[Webbo]

9 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Never assume you know what another person is doing or thinking. It's the easiest way to cock up  in life. People do all sorts of things, for all kinds of reasons that we might not be familiar with - different language, different culture, different religion, different social status, different education, different mental faculties... all sorts of things.

 

But hey, if you shoot FIRST and ask questions LATER, it saves all that.

 

Right?

I think Smudges point is, if you know the police can shoot you if you run away then running away is not a good idea. You might have the moral high ground, but you're still dead.

[Smudge]

8 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Never assume you know what another person is doing or thinking. It's the easiest way to cock up  in life. People do all sorts of things, for all kinds of reasons that we might not be familiar with - different language, different culture, different religion, different social status, different education, different mental faculties... all sorts of things.

 

But hey, if you shoot FIRST and ask questions LATER, it saves all that.

 

Right?

What on earth has made you think I know what other people are thinking or even that is relevant to me when we are talking about police behavior and suspects.

 

You seem to be implying that I am condoning this behavior by the police, please point out to me where you think I might be saying that I support these slayings.

 

 

[leicsmac]

9 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I think Smudges point is, if you know the police can shoot you if you run away then running away is not a good idea. You might have the moral high ground, but you're still dead.

Then I guess it's up to the living not in that situation and so not under that immediate threat of death to challenge that abhorrent concept until it is changed rather than sitting on their hands and believing nothing can be done about it, isn't it? So such situations don't have to happen again?

 

Of course at the present time that advice is sound and as Smudge said the time to make the point about it isn't when you're looking down the barrel of a cop-issue Glock, but the more noise and the less resigned acceptance of situations like that one the sooner something will be done about it.

 

Yes, you could probably ask what I'm doing on this that actually has much meaning given this is just words on the Internet, nothing tangible, and I have no vote in the American political system. But enough voices asking for change can sometimes bring it about (it has in the past), and it's much better than doing nothing at all and thinking it can't be changed. Even though we do live in a sometimes uncaring, brutal and animalistic world.

[Trav Le Bleu]

4 minutes ago, Smudge said:

What on earth has made you think I know what other people are thinking or even that is relevant to me when we are talking about police behavior and suspects.

 

You seem to be implying that I am condoning this behavior by the police, please point out to me where you think I might be saying that I support these slayings.

 

 

No, but you are saying that if police have the right to shoot if a person run, an innocent person would/should never run. That's your belief. I was pointing out that it's not a belief shared by everyone, nor is it as simple as shouting, "Stop, armed police!" and expecting a person to react instantly. As I stated, there are many reasons why an innocent person might run. Due to previous events, there are black people who genuinely believe they will be shot regardless, so will take their chances running. In the case of the deaf man, I think I gave a perfectly rational scenario where he might innocently run. There's also people with learning difficulties who might not fully understand the situation (Derek Bentley is a good example - though in that case the reverse happened.)

 

Police can't presume that people run because they are guilty. It's not clear cut, like so many things in life. It's certainly not acceptable that people should be killed for this. For crying out loud, can they not at least train cops to shoot in the leg? The deaf guy was killed with one shot. The policeman intended to kill - judge, jury and executioner.

[Babylon]

16 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

No, but you are saying that if police have the right to shoot if a person run, an innocent person would/should never run. That's your belief. I was pointing out that it's not a belief shared by everyone, nor is it as simple as shouting, "Stop, armed police!" and expecting a person to react instantly. As I stated, there are many reasons why an innocent person might run. Due to previous events, there are black people who genuinely believe they will be shot regardless, so will take their chances running. In the case of the deaf man, I think I gave a perfectly rational scenario where he might innocently run. There's also people with learning difficulties who might not fully understand the situation (Derek Bentley is a good example - though in that case the reverse happened.)

 

Police can't presume that people run because they are guilty. It's not clear cut, like so many things in life. It's certainly not acceptable that people should be killed for this. For crying out loud, can they not at least train cops to shoot in the leg? The deaf guy was killed with one shot. The policeman intended to kill - judge, jury and executioner.

Lets be honest here though, it's going to be a small minority who don't understand / hear. The vast majority who run are doing so because they don't want to get caught, for whatever reason. It doesn't excuse cops shooting people, at the end of the day running shouldn't give license for anyone to get killed... cops should do what they do in this country and try and catch them.

 

But if you're of sound mind, you understand clearly what's being asked, you know that the cops do currently get away with that shit... then don't bloody run.

[Smudge]

12 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

No, but you are saying that if police have the right to shoot if a person run, an innocent person would/should never run. That's your belief. I was pointing out that it's not a belief shared by everyone, nor is it as simple as shouting, "Stop, armed police!" and expecting a person to react instantly. As I stated, there are many reasons why an innocent person might run. Due to previous events, there are black people who genuinely believe they will be shot regardless, so will take their chances running. In the case of the deaf man, I think I gave a perfectly rational scenario where he might innocently run. There's also people with learning difficulties who might not fully understand the situation (Derek Bentley is a good example - though in that case the reverse happened.)

 

Police can't presume that people run because they are guilty. It's not clear cut, like so many things in life. It's certainly not acceptable that people should be killed for this. For crying out loud, can they not at least train cops to shoot in the leg? The deaf guy was killed with one shot. The policeman intended to kill - judge, jury and executioner.

Why are you telling me what my beliefs are, you are making a wrong assumption?

 

I am not saying or have implied that they shouldn't run, that's their choice albeit a very risky one. I just don't understand it, that's all.

 

 

[RastaDog]

18 hours ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

 if ASL is anything like BSL

A quick aside; it's not. ASL is more like French sign than British. That's not to say the the sign for 'dont' shoot' wouldn't be similar in both but in general the languages are quite different.

[Trav Le Bleu]

1 hour ago, RastaDog said:

A quick aside; it's not. ASL is more like French sign than British. That's not to say the the sign for 'dont' shoot' wouldn't be similar in both but in general the languages are quite different.

I know this, the reason being that the French were the first to have a standardized sign language and it came to the USA via French-Canada. Verbs often merely involve miming the action in some way across many sign languages though.

 

EDIT: just checked on ASL site... you mime a shooting action.

 

[Trav Le Bleu]

1 hour ago, Babylon said:

Lets be honest here though, it's going to be a small minority who don't understand / hear. The vast majority who run are doing so because they don't want to get caught, for whatever reason. It doesn't excuse cops shooting people, at the end of the day running shouldn't give license for anyone to get killed... cops should do what they do in this country and try and catch them.

 

But if you're of sound mind, you understand clearly what's being asked, you know that the cops do currently get away with that shit... then don't bloody run.

I agree it's a small minority, but why take that chance? You, I and yes you Smudge, wouldn't, yet it seems to be acceptable for cops.