ousefox Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 Thought that was a weird, dumbed down documentary from Paxman last night. I'm usually a fan of his but thought it was very poor. Nick Clegg also needs to learn the definition of sovereignty. He was talking absolute bollocks at the end.
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 Thought that was a weird, dumbed down documentary from Paxman last night. I'm usually a fan of his but thought it was very poor. Nick Clegg also needs to learn the definition of sovereignty. He was talking absolute bollocks at the end. Care to expand on why?
David Hankey Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 No doubt they'll be telling us next by coming out of the EU will jeopardize our chances of success!!
Guest Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 When will the leavers actually say what is likely to happen if the UK left? and then back their statements up with some logical arguments.
Guest MattP Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 Anyone watch Paul Mason on BBCQT last night? Probably the most left wing panellist ever seen, the fact he worked for years at the BBC says a lot, you would never get an ex employee of that organisation effectively coming out as a Nazi a few years later. He's a Brexiteer but he's voting remain as he doesn't like the Tories, where to start with that I have no idea.
Dodgy Bob Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 When will the leavers actually say what is likely to happen if the UK left? and then back their statements up with some logical arguments. What they hope for: immigration reduces, we see less foreigners out and about, there are less foreigners taking our jobs and using our services, there are less foreigners driving down wages, there are less foreigners What will happen: immigration numbers stay the same, the government pretends they're attracting higher skilled immigrants via a points based system, but in reality there isn't enough demand and the immigrants required to keep the economy afloat end up being even less skilled than they are now, willing to work longer for less than current immigrants, and even more foreign in terms of cultural integrate-ability. What they hope for: British people making British laws, democracy What will happen: UK politicians will replace pointless EU law with even more pointless UK law, at much higher cost. UK politicians will continue to make a mockery of democracy by lying in their manifestos. The unelected house of Lords will continue to make a mockery of democracy by continuing to exist. What they hope for: free from burdensome EU regulations to UK will become a lean mean business machine evoking the spirit of the industrial revolution What will happen: burdensome EU regulations will be replaced with burdensome UK regulations, only at much higher costs. Difficulties securing trade deals will create a period of uncertainty that will cause a recession and increased unemployment. Evoking the spirit of the industrial revolution workers rights will be diminished and wages will fall. Almost everyone will be worse off.
Rincewind Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 Voting to remain because he doesn't like the tories? What is Cameron then? Although they are split and you never know if Cameron is telling the truth now. The head of BBC News is a personal friend of Osborne isn't he? and ex editor of a Murdoch paper. I think the BBC is slightly more pro government (depending who is in power) mainly because it is the government in power that determines the license fee. But the perception can vary person to person depending on how strong you support or oppose the government in power be it Labour or Tory. Political games are not just played in the HOC and by politicians. It is a game of life.
bovril Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 Oh joy now we have people on here telling us 'Hitler stood up for the rights of the German people'.
Rincewind Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 He believed he was. He told the people he was. The people believed him. By then it was too late.
Guest MattP Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 Just to counter the hyperbole from Dodgy Bob a lot of people like me voting leave aren't demanding less immigration and want to see less foreigners "out and about". I want to see a constant flow of skilled immigration that benefits the country, it seems obscene to have open borders to unskilled workers yet extremely difficult for South American footballers, American filmmakers or Indian doctors to come here who will contribute greatly to the treasury. Speaking of silly comments about the voters though what do we think of Pat Glass? Fair point or just more evidence the Labour party views the opinions of its voters in its strongholds with contempt?
bovril Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 Just to counter the hyperbole from Dodgy Bob a lot of people like me voting leave aren't demanding less immigration and want to see less foreigners "out and about". I want to see a constant flow of skilled immigration that benefits the country, it seems obscene to have open borders to unskilled workers yet extremely difficult for South American footballers, American filmmakers or Indian doctors to come here who will contribute greatly to the treasury. Speaking of silly comments about the voters though what do we think of Pat Glass? Fair point or just more evidence the Labour party views the opinions of its voters in its strongholds with contempt? Shame she apologised. If I met someone who went on about Poles being on benefits I'd probably think he was a bigot, especially considering most statistical evidence suggests that 'benefit tourism' is a non-existent problem. But of course nowadays it's strictly verboten to have an opinion that might disenchant the curtain-twitching masses.
Guest MattP Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 She should have used the word bigot or xenophobe, it isn't racist as it's nothing to do with skin colour. I thought the most appalling thing said was I'm not coming back here, not really something you should be saying about areas that vote for the party you represent.
The Guvnor Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 Anyone watch Paul Mason on BBCQT last night? Probably the most left wing panellist ever seen, the fact he worked for years at the BBC says a lot, you would never get an ex employee of that organisation effectively coming out as a Nazi a few years later. He's a Brexiteer but he's voting remain as he doesn't like the Tories, where to start with that I have no idea. He didn't actually say he would vote to remain, his predicament was his disdain for the EU is finely balanced with his hatred of old Etonians running the country.
Guest MattP Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 He did; in fact barely a thing that came out of his mouth wasn't class war related. Which is so short sighted it's beyond belief, get out and then put forward the alternative people will vote for ahead of the "old Etonians"
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 She should have used the word bigot or xenophobe, it isn't racist as it's nothing to do with skin colour. I thought the most appalling thing said was I'm not coming back here, not really something you should be saying about areas that vote for the party you represent. The term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.
Guest MattP Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 Racist; a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that one's own racial group is superior or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others. It has a clear definition, despite the Guardianistas best attempts at changing it over the last twenty years.
Alf Bentley Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 Anyone watch Paul Mason on BBCQT last night? Probably the most left wing panellist ever seen, the fact he worked for years at the BBC says a lot, you would never get an ex employee of that organisation effectively coming out as a Nazi a few years later. He's a Brexiteer but he's voting remain as he doesn't like the Tories, where to start with that I have no idea. For anyone who's interested in understanding Mason's position ("left-wing Brexit but probably not yet"), he explains it here: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/16/brexit-eu-referendum-boris-johnson-greece-tory Not that I necessarily agree with him (he's more left-wing and a lot more pro-Brexit than I am), I just don't like people's views being misrepresented - especially when we've heard so little from the Left during this crucial debate. Neither in the article nor on QT did he say he'd vote Remain - indeed, on QT, he denied it when someone tried to put words in his mouth. He clearly wants Brexit but is concerned that voting for it now will give Boris & Gove carte blanche to take the country well to the right in a way that could be difficult to reverse any time soon (a reasonable assessment). Admittedly, he threw a lot of rhetoric around on QT and didn't adopt a clear position. But that's partly because he expects that, if the outcome looks close, the EU or leading countries will offer Right-pleasing concessions to try to help Cameron win, which might cause Mason to advocate Leave. He clearly wants to vote Leave, due to his negative opinions of EU democracy & the rise of fascism on the continent, but is tempted to abstain for now due to concerns about handing the UK to Boris & the Right. Neither did he say that his stance is because he "doesn't like the Tories" (though he obviously doesn't). He clearly draws a major distinction between the Cameron Govt and what we'd get under Boris, leading a government of the Thatcherite Right, red (or rather, blue) in tooth and claw. It is indeed very possible that a Leave vote could produce a very right-wing government, setting the agenda for filthy, conflict-inducing, xenophobic, ultra-Thatcherite politics in the UK. Unfortunately, Leave has become a Right-wing cause - as is blatantly obvious in this thread. It's worth taking a close look at Boris, because he could be PM within months if we vote Leave. He was sacked by The Times for faking quotes. He was sacked by the Tories for lying about having having had an affair that led to an abortion. He was caught offering information to a criminal intending to commit a violent assault. He has made blatantly abusive comments about Africans, gay people and Scousers, among others. He recently called the US President "half-Kenyan" and compared the EU to Hitler. Now he's gibbering on about bananas....and this is the frontman for Leave and the future PM?!? He may have an amusing turn of phrase and entertainingly clownish persona, but he is the British Trump. And you compare Mason to a Nazi? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-326045/Boris-sacked-lying-affair.html Yep, Mason is well to the Left. Any reason why views like his should not be expressed on QT, when views held by the likes of Boris & Nick Griffin rightly are? This whining about Lefties at the BBC is getting a bit boring now. Paxman has described himself as a "Tory wet" or similar and was apparently approached to be Tory candidate for London mayor; Nick Robinson is a former President of the Oxford Uni Conservative Association; Eleanor Garnier is the daughter of a Tory MP. Some have Left connections (Marr), others have Right sympathies (Neil), but they still manage to challenge those of every persuasion. Ken is right: the BBC tends to bend a bit towards whoever is in power, but is reasonably balanced. I don't expect to agree with many of your posts, but you're capable of arguing your case without misrepresenting people.
DJ Barry Hammond Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 Racist; a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that one's own racial group is superior or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others. It has a clear definition, despite the Guardianistas best attempts at changing it over the last twenty years. The reference I made dates back to 1965 - part of the UN's International Convention.
Guest MattP Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 It was not a misrepresentation at all. He stated he wants to vote out but he might vote remain because of "this right wing Tory government" being in power afterwards. In terms of misrepresentation it's certainly a mile behind referring to Boris Johnson as a British Trump.
Guest MattP Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 To be honest Mason is just another one of these in a long line on the left pretending to be Eurosceptic or undecided but never really had any intention of voting to leave the EU unless they could be guaranteed some socialist paradise they envisage after it. It's all a bit pathetic, people like Galloway might be odious but at least they practice what they preach.
Guest MattP Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 While we are on misrepresentation though can the remain camp (Lucy Thomas still peddling this on DP today) stop with the 'as many Brits live in EU as they come here' - figures so outdated. UN figs: 1.2m UK-born live in other EU countries, mostly Spain, Ireland, France. 3m from other EU countries live in UK. Numbers NOT the same
Jimothy Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 It was not a misrepresentation at all. He stated he wants to vote out but he might vote remain because of "this right wing Tory government" being in power afterwards. In terms of misrepresentation it's certainly a mile behind referring to Boris Johnson as a British Trump. He clearly went on to explain he was talking about the likes of Johnson and Gove getting more power. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07c4fn4/question-time-19052016 From 8 minutes in. He says he doesn't want to hand more power to a crazy right wing Tory government, clearly turns to Rudd and tells her he doesn't include her as one of those, then after a small deviation regarding other European governments becoming more right wing elaborates regarding handing Johnson and Gove more power. Exactly like Alf said he did. You want to learn to listen, or at least stop just hearing what you want to hear.
Guest MattP Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 So he's a Brexiteer then who might not vote out because it hands more power to the Tories? Am I in some sort of parralel universe here? Boris Johnson is a Tory.
Guest MattP Posted 20 May 2016 Posted 20 May 2016 It still makes him totally nuts to actually be basing his vote on such a fundamental issue on whether someone might or might not be Prime Minister in the future. It would be like me voting in because I'm scared Corbyn might try to start nationalising everything in 2020.
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