The EU referendum - IN / OUT or Shake it all about.

[Dr The Singh]

I'm curious as to why you say that you "never dare post on here"? What's the worst that can happen? Someone says you're talking crap - or that I am?

People express all sorts of views on here and the place is the better for it.

I tend to agree that there will be a big vote for Leave. Big enough to win it? No idea.

However, silent or not, I've a sneaky feeling that the middle England tax-trodden pissed-off masses will still be tax trodden and pissed off whatever the outcome.

Agreed, I'm still going to get taxed and raped, no matter what the outcome. But I rather get raped by my own country men, rather then those of Brussels and merkel

[Guest CityFan 06]

Had a check earlier today on the latest poll results carried out by the BBC - literally neck and neck. However, as the graph shows it really varies each time on the votes. 

If anyone is interested, this is the link and they regularly update the polls within a week or so: 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36271589

[Thracian]

We'll see more serious divisions across society Alf, we were talking about this last week regarding London and no one shy was really shy about saying it wasn't an English city anymore anyway, the referendum could have little effect or it could change the demographic of English politics for some considerable time.

Did anyone see Cameron and Khan sharing a stage yesterday? Khan is a lot more forgiving than I would be given what the Prime Minister was saying about him just a few weeks ago in the run up to the London elections. It's also just just how little shame Call me Dave has.

 

 

I suspect Khan will only be forgiving while it suits him. As for Cameron he's lost a lot of credibility these recent months.    

[Dodgy Bob]

That would be awful . Giving power to the govt we elect instead of unelected bureaucrats.

But that's not the argument those people are making. They're voting out to rebel against the current state of the UK government, ignoring the fact that it will give more power to the same government they're rebelling against. Most people I've spoken to or heard talking about it on real life don't even mention the sovereignty issue. That's far too obscure for the average person.

[Webbo]

But that's not the argument those people are making. They're voting out to rebel against the current state of the UK government, ignoring the fact that it will give more power to the same government they're rebelling against. Most people I've spoken to or heard talking about it on real life don't even mention the sovereignty issue. That's far too obscure for the average person.

That's not an argument I've heard up until now.

[Great Boos Up]

I'm curious as to why you say that you "never dare post on here"? What's the worst that can happen? Someone says you're talking crap - or that I am? 

People express all sorts of views on here and the place is the better for it.

 

I tend to agree that there will be a big vote for Leave. Big enough to win it? No idea.

 

However, silent or not, I've a sneaky feeling that the middle England tax-trodden pissed-off masses will still be tax trodden and pissed off whatever the outcome.

I'm a very sensitive delicate little fragile flower.

 

 

Oh no!                                      a second politics post.                              Now look what you've done!

 

Stand back and be prepared to read my wrath that will make Attila the Hun look like Amanda Holden.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

That's not an argument I've heard up until now.

It's part of the 'establishment' thinking scenario - let's vote ain't establishment, because then... some slightly different but pretty much the same establishment will take over... But hey we can vote them out... In 4 years time... for another slightly different but pretty much the same establishment.

Oh joy!

[Webbo]

It's part of the 'establishment' thinking scenario - let's vote ain't establishment, because then... some slightly different but pretty much the same establishment will take over... But hey we can vote them out... In 4 years time... for another slightly different but pretty much the same establishment.

Oh joy!

A couple of months ago you were telling us how democratic the EU was, now you're saying democracy is a waste of time?

[SMX11]

It's part of the 'establishment' thinking scenario - let's vote ain't establishment, because then... some slightly different but pretty much the same establishment will take over... But hey we can vote them out... In 4 years time... for another slightly different but pretty much the same establishment.

Oh joy!

Perhaps more people should realise this and shun the two main parties until they reform their candidate selection policies.

[theessexfox]

@@alf_bentley I think we're starting to see a lot more of the positive left-wing case for staying in that you mentioned now, both in Corbyn's speech yesterday and on the campaign trail, Labour are becoming more active in this. 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36430606

[DJ Barry Hammond]

A couple of months ago you were telling us how democratic the EU was, now you're saying democracy is a waste of time?

I've tried to show how the "democracy" argument in terms of the EU is unfair, for all political structures have largely unmovable, un-voted for objects (like our civil service). It's part of the function on how they are able to work.

And personally, for me, having taken time to understand the structure, I think it's been well thought through and largely works for trying to make difficult decisions that will span across many countries - if it didn't, the EU would have fallen a long time ago - mean it's easy to bash its structure, but Farage and co never came up with a suggestion on how to reform it from their position within because they had a pre-existing opposition to all things EU.

However, I am also of the opinion that this referendum should never been called - and it certainly shouldn't have been used as a political tool, used as a bait to win votes in a general election - that in itself is demeans the political structure of this own nation.

When we vote in elections, we vote for people to lead us, hopefully, in the right direction on big issues effecting this country - it's our elected officials that are supposed to look deeper into matters, study the complexities and make a balanced decision and they live or die by their decisions.

However, what this referendum does is flip the responsibility - it forces this country to make a monumental decision on this countries future and let's be frank - a decision that many, many, people will freely admit, won't really be qualified to make that decision.

Then - whatever decision we make, we will have to live and die by it, have a large portion of the population grumbly go along with it (for a period of time if it's a Remain vote) and because there's no parellel universe to check in on, we'll never really know whether we picked the right answer.

Now had there been a natural occurring treaty change within the EU, which would have triggered a referendum, and the government of the day set out what the key changes were and what it's opinion on the matter was - that as a position for a referendum I could agree with.

Yet, what we have is none of those things and a farce of a campaign on both sides - and democracy will be the worse for it.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

@alfbentley I think we're starting to see a lot more of the positive left-wing case for staying in that you mentioned now, both in Corbyn's speech yesterday and on the campaign trail, Labour are becoming more active in this. 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36430606

That positive left wing case wasn't half hidden by a general feel of - if I must then!

[Sharpe's Fox]

There is no positive left-wing case for the EU because if you want to see a left wing programme in government where state investment is put into coordinated infrastructure and residential projects and public services you will get shut down by the EU, as seen in the case of Greece. The EU supports government austerity and any investment money is given to the banks so they can trot out cheap loans to any ****er who will take one and in turn devalue the currency which devalues the money in everyone's pocket AKA quantitative easing

EDIT: I do care about climate change and do see the EU as good for the environment but not as much as people getting shafted

[theessexfox]

That positive left wing case wasn't half hidden by a general feel of - if I must then!

True in Corbyn's case but I have seen a lot more of the positive left-wing case recently than I had before.

[johnny the fox]

had my postal vote come through. voted remain. better the devil you know. 

That's the standard answer from somebody who has suffered years of abuse...

[Webbo]

And personally, for me, having taken time to understand the structure, I think it's been well thought through and largely works for trying to make difficult decisions that will span across many countries - if it didn't, the EU would have fallen a long time ago - mean it's easy to bash its structure, but Farage and co never came up with a suggestion on how to reform it from their position within because they had a pre-existing opposition to all things EU.

 

Their idea to reform is to do away with the whole thing and make our own decisions.

However, I am also of the opinion that this referendum should never been called - and it certainly shouldn't have been used as a political tool, used as a bait to win votes in a general election - that in itself is demeans the political structure of this own nation.

 

Ignoring the 40 odd % who want out is demeaning to democracy.

 

When we vote in elections, we vote for people to lead us, hopefully, in the right direction on big issues effecting this country - it's our elected officials that are supposed to look deeper into matters, study the complexities and make a balanced decision and they live or die by their decisions.

 

Unless you're a European commissioner and then you've got a cushy well paid job and tough shit to the electorate.

 

However, what this referendum does is flip the responsibility - it forces this country to make a monumental decision on this countries future and let's be frank - a decision that many, many, people will freely admit, won't really be qualified to make that decision.

 

That's democracy. Most of us aren't Generals but we vote for people to organise our defence, most of us aren't economists but we vote people to run our economy. All we can do is vote on our instincts and accumulated knowledge. It's not perfect but it seems to be the most successful system going. 

Then - whatever decision we make, we will have to live and die by it, have a large portion of the population grumbly go along with it (for a period of time if it's a Remain vote) and because there's no parellel universe to check in on, we'll never really know whether we picked the right answer.

Yet, what we have is none of those things and a farce of a campaign on both sides - and democracy will be the worse for it.

 

Listening to the people is what democracy is about, it's no worse for that.

[Webbo]

There is no positive left-wing case for the EU because if you want to see a left wing programme in government where state investment is put into coordinated infrastructure and residential projects and public services you will get shut down by the EU, as seen in the case of Greece. The EU supports government austerity and any investment money is given to the banks so they can trot out cheap loans to any ****er who will take one and in turn devalue the currency which devalues the money in everyone's pocket AKA quantitative easing

EDIT: I do care about climate change and do see the EU as good for the environment but not as much as people getting shafted

They can't devalue the currency while they're in the Euro.If they could they'd be a lot better off. The Euro is the main cause of the economic malaise in southern Europe, it's been a disaster.

[Alf Bentley]

@@alf_bentley I think we're starting to see a lot more of the positive left-wing case for staying in that you mentioned now, both in Corbyn's speech yesterday and on the campaign trail, Labour are becoming more active in this. 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36430606

 

 

Good to see Corbyn pipe up eventually. What I saw of his speech seemed quite good. He also correctly raised immigration and made some good points on that - how austerity cuts exacerbate pressure on public services, and the need to restore a fund for the integration of migrants into local communities. After all, most migrants don't end up in Witney, Henley or Cheshire, where Dave, Boris & George are MPs, they end up in seats with Labour MPs - or deprived Tory/UKIP coastal seats in E/SE.

 

However....

 

Excellent article giving a Left-wing case for Brexit from Larry Elliott (Guardian Economics Editor):  http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/20/brexit-best-answer-to-dying-eurozone-eu-undemocratic-elite

 

Just reading that article has me back at 50-50, having been tending Remain.

 

Just because some of the people voting Brexit are Thatcherites and English nationalists doesn't make it the wrong choice. There is a left-wing case for Brexit, too - and Elliott makes it very well.

 

A few years back, the EU focused more on redistribution and investment to develop poorer areas. Now, Thatcherism is almost written into law under EMU, and particularly the Stability and Growth Pact (heavy on the balanced-budget "stability", not so much on growth, as the democratically-elected Greek government discovered to their cost).

 

It's difficult to predict the long-term whether we're in or out, but Elliott makes the point that the short/medium-term could look pretty rocky in the EU as well as outside under a British Thatcherite Govt....particularly given the state of the Euro zone.

 

Here's Wiki on the ultra-Thatcherite "Stability and Growth Pact": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stability_and_Growth_Pact

 

I'm off to see Bruce Springsteen at the Ricoh Arena (glad they've found a positive use for it!). I've got some thinking to do at some point over the next 3 weeks....

[Webbo]

Good to see Corbyn pipe up eventually. What I saw of his speech seemed quite good. He also correctly raised immigration and made some good points on that - how austerity cuts exacerbate pressure on public services, and the need to restore a fund for the integration of migrants into local communities. After all, most migrants don't end up in Witney, Henley or Cheshire, where Dave, Boris & George are MPs, they end up in seats with Labour MPs - or deprived Tory/UKIP coastal seats in E/SE.

 

However....

 

Excellent article giving a Left-wing case for Brexit from Larry Elliott (Guardian Economics Editor):  http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/20/brexit-best-answer-to-dying-eurozone-eu-undemocratic-elite

 

Just reading that article has me back at 50-50, having been tending Remain.

 

Just because some of the people voting Brexit are Thatcherites and English nationalists doesn't make it the wrong choice. There is a left-wing case for Brexit, too - and Elliott makes it very well.

 

A few years back, the EU focused more on redistribution and investment to develop poorer areas. Now, Thatcherism is almost written into law under EMU, and particularly the Stability and Growth Pact (heavy on the balanced-budget "stability", not so much on growth, as the democratically-elected Greek government discovered to their cost).

 

It's difficult to predict the long-term whether we're in or out, but Elliott makes the point that the short/medium-term could look pretty rocky in the EU as well as outside under a British Thatcherite Govt....particularly given the state of the Euro zone.

 

Here's Wiki on the ultra-Thatcherite "Stability and Growth Pact": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stability_and_Growth_Pact

 

I'm off to see Bruce Springsteen at the Ricoh Arena (glad they've found a positive use for it!). I've got some thinking to do at some point over the next 3 weeks....

 

The eurozone is economically moribund, persists with policies that have demonstrably failed, is indifferent to democracy, is run by and for a small, self-perpetuating elite, and is slowing dying. The wrong comparison is being made. This is not the US without the electric chair; it is the USSR without the gulag.

 

That's not just a left wing case for leaving, that is THE case for leaving.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

@@Webbo

You've looked to far past my points I feel.

Do you really think the main reason this referendum was for democracies sake, rather than a political move? Do you not think Cameron took the government position based on a strong sense that was the side that would win? That it could be close, may be his own miscalculation - but the decks have always been loaded in this debacle and it reaks of a political stunt which is truly demeaning of democracy. Would you honestly say if Remain won you wouldn't feel a little cheated, that you weren't listened to?

You say the EU commissioners have no accountability - yet, given countries are free to withdrawal themselves from the Union if they wish, these commissioners do have accountability because if they fail a large enough proportion of the continent the whole project fails.

And your suggestion we vote for people to run our defence, our economy is just false - all we elect, is an MP for our local area, plus councilors and possibly a mayor.

The make up of who does what in government is down to the government of the day and is subject to change during the term. Did your voting card have a section to approve Hunt as Health Minister? Osborne as chancellor? We've even seen Prime Ministers change during a term who weren't directly elected (and have no obligation to call and election at that point).

What about positions below the line of government, such as heads of public bodies - a lot these aren't directly elected either. You actually have more power to control an institution as a share holder, because at least when you vote then you can approve individual appointments to the board.

Then you look at our voting system, which essentially forces you chose black against white - when the reality is, people think in lots of different shades inbetween. Sure, you'll have some that are staunch blue or red, but the majority of people would agree with bits of each parties programmes and a better democracy would try to take into account all of those voices which ironically is something the EU tries to do.

Truth is, if First Past the Post was a desirable political system going forward it should have been used in the devolved settlements in Scotland and Wales and should have wider use across the world - the fact that it hasn't been speaks volumes on how out of touch our own political system is.

In my mind, if anyone on the Brexit side wishes to discuss democracy they should also be taking a line on our own system and advocating change here as well - the fact that these two things have rarely crossed should tell you the argument is being used as a means to an end, not as a staunch personal held belief in the sacrosanct of democracy.

[Rincewind]

Still undecided and what puts me off for in and out is we have Dave for in and Boris for out. I thought Corbyn would be in favour of out. From the little I have seen IN favours the multi big corporations more than small businesses and ensures a job for Cameron when he steps down as PM. Maybe Corbyn has an eye on a job alongside him. I take no notice of all the scare stories of being out but nobody knows what will happen. It will take time to settle down. There will still be international laws Britain will have to abide by.

Anyway no voting form yet so will wait and see if it arrives first.

 

DJ makes some good points. Like with the two parties in this country I agree with parts of both sides. With there just being a choice between two there is no flexibility. DC won the election partly on promising a referendum which other parties never did. Not counting the smaller ones. I may vote out. A lot of close family who I respect their views have made good points for leaving and alleviated some of my concerns about leaving.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

The founding fathers HATED the idea of a democracy. They thought it was the worst form of government there is, and I agree with them. 'Cause in a democracy 51% of the people control 49% of the people. If you're part of the 49% you're not free!"

Freedom has nothing to do with having the right to vote for your oppressor; freedom is not having any form of oppression."

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting to decide what's for lunch.”

"What luck for rulers that men do not think."

[DJ Barry Hammond]

All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach.

Sooner will a camel pass through a needle's eye than a great man be "discovered" by an election.

By means of shrewd lies, unremittingly repeated, it is possible to make people believe that heaven is hell - and hell heaven. The greater the lie, the more readily it will be believed.

The great masses of the people . . . will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one.

[Webbo]

@@Webbo

You've looked to far past my points I feel.

Do you really think the main reason this referendum was for democracies sake, rather than a political move? Do you not think Cameron took the government position based on a strong sense that was the side that would win? That it could be close, may be his own miscalculation - but the decks have always been loaded in this debacle and it reaks of a political stunt which is truly demeaning of democracy. Would you honestly say if Remain won you wouldn't feel a little cheated, that you weren't listened to?

Cameron promised a referendum because he thought it would win him votes, no different to any other promise in a manifesto.

You say the EU commissioners have no accountability - yet, given countries are free to withdrawal themselves from the Union if they wish, these commissioners do have accountability because if they fail a large enough proportion of the continent the whole project fails.

So if we leave all the commissioners will be sacked and new ones elected in by the people?They are totally unaccountable, that is indisputable.

And your suggestion we vote for people to run our defence, our economy is just false - all we elect, is an MP for our local area, plus councilors and possibly a mayor.

The make up of who does what in government is down to the government of the day and is subject to change during the term. Did your voting card have a section to approve Hunt as Health Minister? Osborne as chancellor? We've even seen Prime Most of us that vote, vote for a party and their manifesto. If they tell us they'll make a better job of the economy we either believe them or not without being experts

 

.Ministers change during a term who weren't directly elected (and have no obligation to call and election at that point).

No, but if you're unhappy about it you can take that into consideration at the next election.

What about positions below the line of government, such as heads of public bodies - a lot these aren't directly elected either. You actually have more power to control an institution as a share holder, because at least when you vote then you can approve individual appointments to the board.

The people who make those appointments are elected.

Then you look at our voting system, which essentially forces you chose black against white - when the reality is, people think in lots of different shades inbetween. Sure, you'll have some that are staunch blue or red, but the majority of people would agree with bits of each parties programmes and a better democracy would try to take into account all of those voices which ironically is something the EU tries to do.

Truth is, if First Past the Post was a desirable political system going forward it should have been used in the devolved settlements in Scotland and Wales and should have wider use across the world - the fact that it hasn't been speaks volumes on how out of touch our own political system is.

In my mind, if anyone on the Brexit side wishes to discuss democracy they should also be taking a line on our own system and advocating change here as well - the fact that these two things have rarely crossed should tell you the argument is being used as a means to an end, not as a staunch personal held belief in the sacrosanct of democracy.

We had a referendum on electoral reform and the status quo won. There's an argument to be made for it but that's a separate issue, nothing stopping us changing it in the future, if that's what the electorate want.

Sorry about replying in this way, I tried a couple of times to reply on a quote by quote basis to your first post and it just wouldn't work for some reason.

[yorkie1999]

So, will BMW's and Merc's be more expensive or cheaper if we quit the EU.