Albrighton

[Hungry Hungry Fox]

ISIS have no central base of operations

[BrokenRecord]

Cant comment there pal, but its why I pay my taxes, to contribute towards an army to protect this country and its citizens. Anyway, welcome to FT, you must be a newbie - and a minority at that.

I'm not new here bud, though admittedly I don't comment much. I'm just saying that if you feel so strongly about it, maybe you should be on the front lines with the ones you want fighting the battle for you. Or is it other people's sons you want out there? 

For the record, I'm not a minority. I apologise for taking a combative tone, it was unnecessary.

[lgfualol]

can we not turn this into a how to fight isis conversation

[stockyfox]

This is indeed so sad and totally devastating for the families of all the victims. This is the face of evil and horror at its worst. What goes on in the minds of these butchers who have no regard for life or thoughts for what they are doing or the consequences of their actions? I thought 9/11 was an unbelievable act of senseless futility but Friday's massacre leaves everyone trying to understand why them. Our hearts and prayers go out to all those who have had to suffer such a shock and now must try to come to terms with this and try to rebuild their lives.

[iancognito]

Condolences to Marc and his family, must make it so much worse  when it's so sudden and unexpected like this.

 

Makes me laugh when I hear people saying we should get boots on the ground and start fighting them with troops. It's completely clueless, just sending people to be slaughtered. Boots on what ground? They're spread across Iraq, across Syria, stretching into places like Yemen, Egypt and Libya. Putting a few hundred soldiers in one place won't help. You'd need an army the size of China's or North Korea's just to have an effect and there's fat chance they'll get involved.

 

Rather than troops, we need to look at special ops to capture and take out the leaders and key men. Once they're captured, they disappear. Lock them up in secret locations and forget they exist. The only way to beat these people is to remove the people who makes the big calls and preach the hate. The rest are clueless sheep and would soon flee if they lost control of the big cities again.

[benpicko]

Time we declared total war on these bastards. Gloves off, no dicking about, get the SAS after them.

You do realise that's exactly what ISIS are looking for, right?

Read this, brilliant article: http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

[Guest MarshallForEngland]

Condolences to Marc and his family, must make it so much worse  when it's so sudden and unexpected like this.

 

Makes me laugh when I hear people saying we should get boots on the ground and start fighting them with troops. It's completely clueless, just sending people to be slaughtered. Boots on what ground? They're spread across Iraq, across Syria, stretching into places like Yemen, Egypt and Libya. Putting a few hundred soldiers in one place won't help. You'd need an army the size of China's or North Korea's just to have an effect and there's fat chance they'll get involved.

 

Rather than troops, we need to look at special ops to capture and take out the leaders and key men. Once they're captured, they disappear. Lock them up in secret locations and forget they exist. The only way to beat these people is to remove the people who makes the big calls and preach the hate. The rest are clueless sheep and would soon flee if they lost control of the big cities again.

 

This just isn't true, and it isn't true for exactly the reasons you stated in your first paragraph, The Islamist phenomenon is so difficult to overcome precisely because it is so decentralized. It is also based almost entirely on ideology, so if a high-profile "leader" is killed, the tens of thousands of foaming-at-the-mouth jihadis underneath him will celebrate his early arrival in paradise and carry on regardless, probably strengthened by the ordeal and wishing for all out war even more vehemently.

 

This idea of the ISIS fighters as being "clueless sheep" is simply false. Many of these people are seasoned veterans who have known nothing but war for their entire lives. As for the foreign recruits, contrary to (often deliberate) misconception, they are not simply impoverished outcasts looking to belong to a special club, they are quite often exceptionally well-educated and intelligent people, who also happen to be very religiously devout and observant Muslims who take the Quran and Hadith absolutely literally. They think they are approaching the end times and are about to get into paradise. They will not stop because one of their own got their slightly before them; if anything it will encourage them to bring about their own death even sooner.

[Hungry Hungry Fox]

This just isn't true, and it isn't true for exactly the reasons you stated in your first paragraph, The Islamist phenomenon is so difficult to overcome precisely because it is so decentralized. It is also based almost entirely on ideology, so if a high-profile "leader" is killed, the tens of thousands of foaming-at-the-mouth jihadis underneath him will celebrate his early arrival in paradise and carry on regardless, probably strengthened by the ordeal and wishing for all out war even more vehemently.

This idea of the ISIS fighters as being "clueless sheep" is simply false. Many of these people are seasoned veterans who have known nothing but war for their entire lives. As for the foreign recruits, contrary to (often deliberate) misconception, they are not simply impoverished outcasts looking to belong to a special club, they are quite often exceptionally well-educated and intelligent people, who also happen to be very religiously devout and observant Muslims who take the Quran and Hadith absolutely literally. They think they are approaching the end times and are about to get into paradise. They will not stop because one of their own got their slightly before them; if anything it will encourage them to bring about their own death even sooner.

They're not "devout Muslims". I think actual devout Muslims would take issue with your statement, And would tell you that these people are going against what Islam stands for

[NewburyFox]

They're not "devout Muslims". I think actual devout Muslims would take issue with your statement, And would tell you that these people are going against what Islam stands for

 

He's right. They take the Prophet Mohammad's words absolutely literally - IS aren't just a mindless rabble killing for the sake of it. 

[Burmesefox]

He's right. They take the Prophet Mohammad's words absolutely literally - IS aren't just a mindless rabble killing for the sake of it. 

The Quran is very clear on murder; it states it is wrong and there are no circumstances for justification for killing someone. Essentially the religion has been hijacked by extremists for their own wordly gains - this is nothing to do with God but is a means of justification to gain power, money and control. 

[Hungry Hungry Fox]

He's right. They take the Prophet Mohammad's words absolutely literally - IS aren't just a mindless rabble killing for the sake of it.

The whole religion thing is a cover for their true intentions IMO, which is to destabilise the Middle East and Iran in particular. It's remarkable how they've grown in just a year. I think there is more than meets the eye with Isis

[NewburyFox]

The Quran is very clear on murder; it states it is wrong and there are no circumstances for justification for killing someone. Essentially the religion has been hijacked by extremists for their own wordly gains - this is nothing to do with God but is a means of justification to gain power, money and control. 

 

I don't know much about the Quran - I just read a lengthy article earlier about how they believe that their actions are based literally on the Prophet Muhammad's words and their desire to establish an Islamic caliphate. I believe it's 100% to do with God - or their perception of it - rather than power, money and control.

[benpicko]

I don't know much about the Quran - I just read a lengthy article earlier about how they believe that their actions are based literally on the Prophet Muhammad's words and their desire to establish an Islamic caliphate. I believe it's 100% to do with God - or their perception of it - rather than power, money and control.

 

Was it the article I posted or something else? This is another interesting article from the same site responding to the earlier article: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/02/what-muslims-really-want-isis-atlantic/386156/

[NewburyFox]

Was it the article I posted or something else? This is another interesting article from the same site responding to the earlier article: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/02/what-muslims-really-want-isis-atlantic/386156/

 

Yeah it was haha, I saw you post it early and thought I'd educate myself. Great article.

[MikeyT]

Leicester City ‏@OfficialFOXES  Jun 28

#lcfc offers its sincerest condolences to Marc Albrighton, his partner Chloe and their family. http://bit.ly/1FIymbL 

[chapero82]

I'm not new here bud, though admittedly I don't comment much. I'm just saying that if you feel so strongly about it, maybe you should be on the front lines with the ones you want fighting the battle for you. Or is it other people's sons you want out there? 

For the record, I'm not a minority. I apologise for taking a combative tone, it was unnecessary.

They are not shooting soldiers though are they? They are shooting innocent people with no guns or weapons to protect themselves with

[BrokenRecord]

They are not shooting soldiers though are they? They are shooting innocent people with no guns or weapons to protect themselves with

Yes but to imply "boots on the ground" would solve the problem is wrong. It won't stop them, just give them more propaganda, and have more soldiers killed.

[ARM1968]

Unfortunately the Koran has elements of war in it as well as peace. Those justifying their actions can find what they want in its teachings just as those who say Islam is a religion of peace. It is neither. Just as Mohammed took a 9 year old wife.

However bad people are bad people and this senseless act, whatever it's cause, has left indelible marks on many innocent family's, Marc's included.

[bovril]

Quran is schizo as fvck. It reads like it was written even more on the fly than 50 Shades of Grey. Page 45 - "Kill not the people of the book"... 10 pages later - "yeah, what we said about the people of the book, turns out actually we can kill them. Oh and God said let me shag your wife".

 

I agree though that ISIS command probably couldn't give a toss about the religion. I believe it was set up by Sadaam's former army chief and draws a lot of its personnel from the disbanded Baathist army. As stated above the main aim is to destabilise the region.

[Finn Claw II]

The old testament is full of fire and brimstone, there is a lot of murder you can justify with that. With both this and the Koran you can 'justify' terrible actions with selective quotes.

Moderate religious types or all colours tend to be decent people its the extremists or those using it to unexcuse actions that are the danger.

You destabilise a whole region and something new is going to claim power, unfortunately it is IS.

[conLAD logan]

Every religion seems to have its dark sides events like this make me wish they didn't exist. But we've gone too far already to do something about it.

[Wymsey]

Fighting ISIS will be like fighting cancer; you might make most of it disappear, but it'll probably arise and be dangerous again.

[bovril]

The old testament is full of fire and brimstone, there is a lot of murder you can justify with that. With both this and the Koran you can 'justify' terrible actions with selective quotes.

Moderate religious types or all colours tend to be decent people its the extremists or those using it to unexcuse actions that are the danger.

You destabilise a whole region and something new is going to claim power, unfortunately it is IS.

 

Agree on all counts. Add sodomy, incest and rape to the Old Testament too.

 

I don't believe there are any countries whose basic legal system follows the Old Testament though. There are ultra-conservative African countries with moral codes influenced by the bible, but no outright Christian theocracies as far as I'm aware of.

 

I've travelled and lived for a short time in the Muslim world, albeit in secular (yeah, right) Turkey. The culture, people, architecture are all wonderful but the religion is unbearably stifling and inflexible. The overriding theme in Islam is 'justice', and this can feed into a quite dangerous victim-culture that often spills over into violence.

[Guest MarshallForEngland]

They're not "devout Muslims". I think actual devout Muslims would take issue with your statement, And would tell you that these people are going against what Islam stands for

 

It'd be hard to be more wrong that this. They are very devout; too devout. Your argument is known as the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Google it to discover why you're wrong.

 

The Quran is very clear on murder; it states it is wrong and there are no circumstances for justification for killing someone. Essentially the religion has been hijacked by extremists for their own wordly gains - this is nothing to do with God but is a means of justification to gain power, money and control. 

 

Reality disagrees with you mate unfortunately. When somebody says they believe they will ascend straight to heaven if they die killing apostates or infidels, there's really no need to second-guess their "real" motives. Those beliefs really do affect their behaviour. It's not some smoke screen for their "worldly gains" - they fervently believe that they should follow in the Prophet's example, which is one of extreme aggression and unmentionable cruelty & violence. Read the Sunnah and see for yourself.

[promised land]

I think it was Marc's brother in law who was just on BBC news at ten, how he kept it together after all of this is beyond me, a strong man.

But he spoke a lot of sense, hitting the nail on the head where too much coverage is of IS, the victims are being bypassed.

He is right as well, it's all about terror, not the ones who have suffered.

As for the previous posts on fighting them, you never know where they'll be next, it's not an army marching over fields, it's lone nutters armed and dangerous and attacking innocent bystanders.