The NHS (National Health Service) Thread

[Manwell Pablo]

Too many people have power though. Even matrons have control over budgets these days don't they?

I've come across service leads who are clinically trained and have a clinical background, never a matron. I've found them to be very good at what they do.

[Rincewind]

Good speech  https://www.facebook.com/labourhealthteam/videos/1187854097891993/ I wonder what the response was.

[Bryn]

I've read that the pay protection lasts for a minimum of three years. In situations like this I'm inclined to think that terms shouldn't be changed after somebody has already committed themselves to a career path. While various factors make that kind of uncertainty a fact of life for most of us, that's not really an excuse a government should use (although they do all the time with everything from pensions to tax to welfare).

I'd have no issue with pay being cut for future doctors, I wouldn't describe that as them being "****ed over" because they'd still have the choice not to become a doctor if they didn't feel the rewards were good enough. But it does seem a raw deal for those who have already committed a lot of time and energy into their training. Then again, raw deals are the order of the day and doctors are still exceptionally well paid, so my sympathy is fairly limited.

Would you like to elaborate on why we deserve pay cuts? Would you like to state how much you think we earn? Do you know our contracted hours? Do you know that proportion of the time we work over for no extra pay? Do you know how much we are given in expenses for mandatory professional fees?

This isn't about money but I don't understand the desire to see us have our pay cut by significant amounts at a time when conditions are appalling for NHS staff.

[Dodgy Bob]

Would you like to elaborate on why we deserve pay cuts? Would you like to state how much you think we earn? Do you know our contracted hours? Do you know that proportion of the time we work over for no extra pay? Do you know how much we are given in expenses for mandatory professional fees?

This isn't about money but I don't understand the desire to see us have our pay cut by significant amounts at a time when conditions are appalling for NHS staff.

I don't need to know details like that to know that doctors are well paid. I'm sure you have gripes, show me a profession that doesn't. You're still well paid.

I'm not saying you deserve a pay cut. You won't get a pay cut for at least three years, if ever. What I said was, I'm not against pay being cut for future doctors who haven't yet commited to any training. This is a natural position for me to take as a tax payer who wants value for money from all areas of public expenditure. There is no reason why doctors salaries should be immune from scrutiny and forever guaranteed to increase, and if we find that we can provide the service levels required while paying future doctors less then this is what we should do. The money saved can then be redirected elsewhere to maximise the value taxpayers get for their money. This should always be the stance government's take, but it's especially important at times when the public finances are as unhealthy as they are now.

You'll probably tell me that we won't be able to provide the service levels required, that future doctors will be worse doctors because they're not quite as well paid, but I don't buy that.

[Bryn]

Future doctors won't be worse doctors, the service just won't be able to attract and retain top talent as well as it can now, and there are already gaping rota gaps.

[Bryn]

But that's a side issue, the bottom line is we can't provide any more extensive service than we already do and therefore cannot agree a contract that threatens this further.

[The Railway Man]

But that's a side issue, the bottom line is we can't provide any more extensive service than we already do and therefore cannot agree a contract that threatens this further.

 

Great idea to show how much you care by walking out. Judging from my workmates public support has gone now for you.

[Bryn]

The polls disagree.

Strike days we can plan and prepare for. There are extra GP slots and a legion of consultants on the wards. Both A&Es in my trust are performing well, which you can check on if you search for Gloucestershire A&E on Google and click the waiting times page.

If the junior doctor workforce is eviscerated, there's nothing we can about that, and no one will thank us.

[The Railway Man]

The polls disagree.

 

Let's see the polls after this set of strikes.

[The Railway Man]

Just a quick reminder that perhaps we should be careful of what we wish for:

 

 

I know those on here advocating reform are (probably) not advocating an American-style system, but I think it's a pretty damning look at the nature of the US healthcare and insurance system when this many folk are losing the shirts off their backs just because they were unlucky enough to get badly sick or injured.

 

How many people in the UK have been declared that bankrupt that wouldn't have been had they not had to stump up thousands upon thousands of quid to pay for an NHS they barely ever use?

[leicsmac]

How many people in the UK have been declared that bankrupt that wouldn't have been had they not had to stump up thousands upon thousands of quid to pay for an NHS they barely ever use?

 

Well, seeing as NI contributions are always proportional to income meaning that regardless of earnings you still have a significant percentage of money left after they've been taken out...I'd guess not many. But I'd be happy to be presented with numbers to the contrary.

 

And guess what, even if that did happen and they then got sick or injured they wouldn't be turned away from many different hospitals when their insurance paperwork didn't pass muster or be saddled with a lifetime of debt. Again. How about that.

 

I've got to ask the question...is a US style healthcare system here in the UK something you would advocate?

[The Railway Man]

Deffo. Having lived in the US for years it's a no brainer which system I'd prefer. The NHS is only rated by people by who have barely been treated elsewhere in the developed World.

Edited 26 April 2016 by The Railway Man

[leicsmac]

Deffo. Having lived in the US for years it's a no brainer which system I'd prefer. The NHS is only rated by people by who have barely been treated elsewhere in the developed World.

Five years in the Far East, a year stateside, had to visit doctors and hospitals in both and I couldn't disagree more with you.

But if you like the idea of a service that places direct monetary value on human life, provides cutting edge treatment to the rich and lets everyone else hang both financially and in terms of their actual health then that's up to you.

[The Railway Man]

Five years in the Far East, a year stateside, had to visit doctors and hospitals in both and I couldn't disagree more with you.

But if you like the idea of a service that places direct monetary value on human life, provides cutting edge treatment to the rich and lets everyone else hang both financially and in terms of their actual health then that's up to you.

 

I can imagine how bad Korea is, ranked outside the top 50 last time I looked.

 

Nothing to do with monetary value on human life, I was simply stating where I thought I got the better service. I was surprised how cheap it was as well.

[GaelicFox]

I can imagine how bad Korea is, ranked outside the top 50 last time I looked.

 

Nothing to do with monetary value on human life, I was simply stating where I thought I got the better service. I was surprised how cheap it was as well.

Every year 700,000 Americans go bankrupt and become homeless etc.... Because of medical bills !!!!

Sounds like a wonderful service

Next time you're ( I have been learning ) having a heart attack ask to be dropped off at the spires private hospital , I'll send the undertaker to collect you

[leicsmac]

I can imagine how bad Korea is, ranked outside the top 50 last time I looked.

 

Nothing to do with monetary value on human life, I was simply stating where I thought I got the better service. I was surprised how cheap it was as well.

 

And this, I believe, is where we have the fundamental disconnect in our arguments here.

 

Regarding Korea, by last stats its life expectancy for all demographics is above OECD average (U.S. is below average for 4 out of 5 demographics) and its total, public and pharma health expenditure are all below OECD average (U.S. are top for total and pharma, 3rd for public). So not too bad.

 

http://www.compareyourcountry.org/health

 

I think I'd take both the UK and Korean systems above the US one based on that, as well as anecdotes.

Edited 26 April 2016 by leicsmac

[Rincewind]

What is cheap to one person is expensive to another. Private short term care may be fine but any long term medical treatment and the £££ will soon mount up. Not good for a family man who has to take time off work for  his or a family member's health care.

[RobHawk]

Jeremy Hunt - The man who co-authored a book calling for the NHS to be replaced - In my opinion cannot be trusted to look after the NHS.

 

Today's strike could easily have been cancelled just with a little compromise and going back to the negotiation table. He wanted this strike to go ahead, purely in the hope that it will turn the rest of the UK against the junior Drs and not him.

 

Don't believe the propaganda people - If you want an NHS - you need people to staff it. It says it all that this is the first time in history that a strike has included emergency provision. 

[Sharpe's Fox]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/25/jeremy-corbyn-nhs-junior-doctors-strike-private-healthcare

 

JC telling it straight one again. Tories are disgusted by any social enterprise where anyone can walk in with a life threatening condition and walk out fine and dandy with the same amount in their back pocket.

[Guest MattP]

Same amount in back pocket?

It costs the taxpayer 2.2billion a week, some people to genuinely think the NHS is actually free.

[Sharpe's Fox]

Some people genuinely think that the amount one pays into the system isn't proportional to what one is able to afford.

[EnderbyFox]

[Nick]

 

 

 

[The Railway Man]

Has anyone even noticed they are on strike? Services ran better than ever yesterday by the sounds of it.

[Bryn]

Why are you so bitter?

Of course they ran quicker, fewer people attended and no patient had to wait for consultant review, they got them instantly because they weren't in clinic.