Schools Crisis.

[Webbo]

No investment? £100 billion plus per year is no investment?

I'd love to watch you and MattP drink tea and read the paper in the morning considering yourselves very sensible and the public very silly for their opposition to all of this.

Sorry I didn't realise you spoke for the public.

[Bryn]

Not if it's regressing as a proportion of GDP, not if it is inadequate to maintain an adequate service. Or indeed if it's being slashed, as it broadly is. That's not investment, any country with a GDP in the trillions should anticipate a maintenance cost.

[Webbo]

All the more reason to make the NHS more cost affective.

[Bryn]

Or just sell it off. At least they're not wasting our time with pretense in the case of our school.

Good luck finding an NHS worker who advocates waste. Nothing more wasteful that the dozens of pointless managerial staff it's accumulated. My trusts managers are all about to be sacked and a new set hired, at great cost, despite widespread acknowledgement that the reason our A+E breaches it's four hour target (another bastardisation of the evidence, by the way) is principally because of outflow obstruction over which we have variable control.

[Charl91]

Labour care about the the Doctors and teachers the tories care about patients and children, to me that's the right priority. As for leaving the EU, it's a referendum and the PM wants us to stay in so I don't know what your point is.

 

 

Do you genuinely believe all the biased crap that you actually come out with?

[Webbo]

I'm sure there are lots of ways the NHS could save money not just doctors and nurses but I have some experience of the NHS in recent years and the staff didn't appear worked off their feet to me.

 

As for schools there are loads of shit state schools in this country, not least the one my kids went to. I honestly don't give a flying fvck who owns the school or whether it offends the socialist principles of some of the teachers, I just want a good education for my kids.

Do you genuinely believe all the biased crap that you actually come out with?

Because you're totally even handed?

[Bryn]

Where's the evidence turning them all into academies, which will serve primarily to siphon wealth into the pockets of its shareholders rather than into its own development, is superior? What's wrong with believing a wealthy country like the UK should provide equitable public services to all people and that revenues generated go solely into further development of that service and not be used to pay bonuses and dividends?

[Webbo]

Where's the evidence turning them all into academies, which will serve primarily to siphon wealth into the pockets of its shareholders rather than into its own development, is superior? What's wrong with believing a wealthy country like the UK should provide equitable public services to all people and that revenues generated go solely into further development of that service and not be used to pay bonuses and dividends?

Well I don't know, I've already said it seems a bit unnecessary but we've had state provided schooling for decades and all the non profit making, good intentions in the world hasn't stopped a lot of them being crap

[Charl91]

I'm sure there are lots of ways the NHS could save money not just doctors and nurses but I have some experience of the NHS in recent years and the staff didn't appear worked off their feet to me.

 

As for schools there are loads of shit state schools in this country, not least the one my kids went to. I honestly don't give a flying fvck who owns the school or whether it offends the socialist principles of some of the teachers, I just want a good education for my kids.

Because you're totally even handed?

 

Not totally, but certainly relatively more so. I don't have a specific party to defend, so I call things as I see them, rather then blindly supporting everything the Tories/labour come out with. You seem to defend anything that is Tory related, regardless of what it is.

 

Saying things like "Labour doesn't care about children but Tories do" is ridiculous.

 

Well I don't know, I've already said it seems a bit unnecessary but we've had state provided schooling for decades and all the non profit making, good intentions in the world hasn't stopped a lot of them being crap

 

Yeah, some schools are crap. That does, and always will happen, as much as it pains me to say so. That's what happens when things are run by people. However, there's no evidence whatsoever that academies are better for education. The only real difference is that it allows some few individuals to make a profit from it. This is most likely going to come out of money that would have been going to the children.

 

I sincerely hope you don't have children in current primary education, because what the Government wants to teach them on the national curriculum certainly IS crap (at least in terms of Literacy - maths, less so, in all fairness). And that is something that's almost universally agreed by every primary teacher. If I had kids, I certainly wouldn't want them to be taught this way.

[Webbo]

My youngest has just turned 18. They were in primary school under Labour, it was plenty shit then.

[Izzy]

I haven't read through all the posts but the thread title 'Schools crisis' makes me laugh some what. We don't know how lucky we are in this country. Half the kids in the world don't even get an education. My kids are 6 and 9 and in a normal state primary school and I can't fault the teachers or the head. Some teachers are more engaging that other but that's life. Living down here my kids will have to take the 11 plus exam. If they pass = a grammar school place, if they fail = an academy or comprehensive, or whatever the term is now. Whatever happens they have unlimited opportunities living in the UK. They could go to Uni or get a job, or set up their own business like I did. Whoever is in government and whatever the system, it's always down to the individual to make the best of their circumstances. I don't vote so can't comment on the pro's and con's of different parties approaches, but my kids are fortunate enough to at least get a decent grounding in life compared to many kids in the world. If everyone took more personal responsibility instead of moaning about whats wrong, this country wouldn't be going to the dogs...

[Guest MattP]

You're right, it's the decision of people who want to score political points and make idealogical changes, rather than decisions which will best serve the education of future generations.

 

It should be the decision of teachers and heads. 

 

It really should not, it's the governments job to govern and teachers jobs to teach. In virtually every league table you can find this countries standard of education has slipped from a high one to among the worst in the developed World, why should we totally trust the people who have oversaw that to know what is best?

 

No one knows if these reforms will work or not but sticking to the status quo certainly isn't the answer, at least we have a government now actually prepared to try some serious reform and improve things.

 

This government is a ****ing joke. How can you instigate major reform without a shred of evidence it's of benefit? How can you not consult those who will deliver the "product", as the Tories clearly view it, or steamroll those who raise concerns? "There is no reverse gear", what a disgusting and dismissive things to say to our hardworking and beleaguered teachers.

This government is set to preside over not one but two major public sector strikes, not to mention the threat of leaving the European Union, again with no evidence it will benefit any of us. No evidence or rationale for any of their actions seems to be offered. Cameron and Osborne set up hard nose puppets like Morgan and Hunt, instruct them to say inflammatory things and sit quietly whilst the public becomes angrier and angrier.

We need them out and we need electoral reform so that never again can a Government whom only a third of the population voted for bully the nation with baseless policies which serve only to fill the coffers of the wealthiest in our society.

 

I had a chat with a friend of mine a few weeks back and enjoyed the company of Sir Dan Moniyhan, he put an extremely good case forward for academies, whether this is neccessary for all schools is up for debate but there is serious evidence out there current academies are performing extremely well.

 

Stop talking complete and utter nonsense regarding elections, for a start no one would vote for reform, AV barely got 35% in a referendum and whilst I think PR would perform slightly better it would have no chance of clearing a 50% threshold. If you are talking about reform for PR then you would have a Tory/UKIP coalition now, how do you think that would fair in stopping the Tory government taking is out the Europe? If the reform is AV then the result would have been absolutely no different aside from one more seat going to the Tories.

 

Thinking about what you are actually posting and make sure it makes sense before you call others buffoons. I get the idea of your electoral reform would be taking the Tories off the ballot paper.

 

Please do expand on what electoral reform you want so the government you don't like can't run the country?

 

I'd love to watch you and MattP drink tea and read the paper in the morning considering yourselves very sensible and the public very silly for their opposition to all of this.

 

It's laughable and you don't even seem to realise you do this.

 

Public have concern about NHS - "Public know nothing, leave it to the doctors"

Public support NHS strike - "We have the public on on side they are right, government must listen to them"

 

Public complain about school standards - "Public know nothing, leave it to teachers and headmasters"

Public moan about acadamies - "Public understand, government must listen to them"

[leicsmac]

It really should not, it's the governments job to govern and teachers jobs to teach. In virtually every league table you can find this countries standard of education has slipped from a high one to among the worst in the developed World, why should we totally trust the people who have oversaw that to know what is best?

 

No one knows if these reforms will work or not but sticking to the status quo certainly isn't the answer, at least we have a government now actually prepared to try some serious reform and improve things.

 

I think changing things around for the sake of change isn't a good idea, regardless of the perceived effectiveness of what was going on before.

 

And tbh the less education is subject to commercial pressure, the better.

[Claridge]

I think changing things around for the sake of change isn't a good idea, regardless of the perceived effectiveness of what was going on before.

And tbh the less education is subject to commercial pressure, the better.

The less the NUT have to do with education the better.

[leicsmac]

The less the NUT have to do with education the better.

 

You distrust teachers and the union that seeks to protect them, I distrust moneyed interests who want to use the education system for their own ends. I guess either way it is seen as undue and bad influence by one part or another.

 

Incidentally, regarding the point about education standards and league tables, having spent four years working in the education system of a country that has some of the highest placings in those league tables in the world I wouldn't wish the education system that produces such high results on any child I know or loved. Not when I see what it does to most of the ones I work with.

[Webbo]

You distrust teachers and the union that seeks to protect them, I distrust moneyed interests who want to use the education system for their own ends. I guess either way it is seen as undue and bad influence by one part or another.

 

Incidentally, regarding the point about education standards and league tables, having spent four years working in the education system of a country that has some of the highest placings in those league tables in the world I wouldn't wish the education system that produces such high results on any child I know or loved. Not when I see what it does to most of the ones I work with.

What moneyed interests are you afraid of (ignoring that a lot of these academies will be run by charities)? Do you think they'll be having lessons on how we should all drink more Coca Cola?Do you think they'll be introducing asbestos to cookery class? There will still be school inspectors you know.

[leicsmac]

What moneyed interests are you afraid of (ignoring that a lot of these academies will be run by charities)? Do you think they'll be having lessons on how we should all drink more Coca Cola?Do you think they'll be introducing asbestos to cookery class? There will still be school inspectors you know.

 

The kind that use their money to dictate education policy in their favour. Though I might be wrong, having someone who knows little about education setting the curriculum for a school doesn't fill me with confidence, to say nothing about any ideological bias.

 

If there is rigorous oversight (not that I hold any love for Ofsted anyway) then it might work, though I would be interested to see what criteria they would use.

[davieG]

My overriding impression after decades of observing is that the constant political interference in schools and the NHS and the to-ing and fro-ing  from one political dogma to another is what has totally messed up both of them.

[leicsmac]

My overriding impression after decades of observing is that the constant political interference in schools and the NHS and the to-ing and fro-ing  from one political dogma to another is what has totally messed up both of them.

 

Spot on.

[Claridge]

You distrust teachers and the union that seeks to protect them, I distrust moneyed interests who want to use the education system for their own ends. I guess either way it is seen as undue and bad influence by one part or another.

Incidentally, regarding the point about education standards and league tables, having spent four years working in the education system of a country that has some of the highest placings in those league tables in the world I wouldn't wish the education system that produces such high results on any child I know or loved. Not when I see what it does to most of the ones I work with.

No I distrust the NUT, most teachers ignore their politically driven strike calls.all the teachers I know join a union for the legal protection in case of a claim against them.they all seem to mistrust the union leadership

[Charl91]

It really should not, it's the governments job to govern and teachers jobs to teach. In virtually every league table you can find this countries standard of education has slipped from a high one to among the worst in the developed World, why should we totally trust the people who have oversaw that to know what is best?

 

No one knows if these reforms will work or not but sticking to the status quo certainly isn't the answer, at least we have a government now actually prepared to try some serious reform and improve things.

 

 

I refer you to Davie G's point above.

 

Perhaps if we didn't have constant political interference (and I don't just mean from the Tories - all political parties are guilty of it), and let Teachers have more freedom to teach, then our education system wouldn't be as bad.

 

'Back in the day', when the education in this country was a lot better, as you say so yourself, Teachers were a lot more free to teach what and how they liked. Is it any surprise then, that education standards have slipped the more that Governments, and other people who really don't have the slightest iota on what education should actually entail, have begun meddling increasingly in making education more prescriptive, and dictating how and what should be taught?

 

You seem to contradict yourself. Do you want better education, or do you want the Government to call all the shots and make ideologically-based choices?

[Webbo]

I refer you to Davie G's point above.

 

Perhaps if we didn't have constant political interference (and I don't just mean from the Tories - all political parties are guilty of it), and let Teachers have more freedom to teach, then our education system wouldn't be as bad.

 

'Back in the day', when the education in this country was a lot better, as you say so yourself, Teachers were a lot more free to teach what and how they liked. Is it any surprise then, that education standards have slipped the more that Governments, and other people who really don't have the slightest iota on what education should actually entail, have begun meddling increasingly in making education more prescriptive, and dictating how and what should be taught?

 

You seem to contradict yourself. Do you want better education, or do you want the Government to call all the shots and make ideologically-based choices?

Isn't that the point of academies? To remove schools from political interference and put head teachers in charge?

[Sharpe's Fox]

Isn't that the point of academies? To remove schools from political interference and put head teachers in charge?

You're right and wrong, the point of academies is to remove local authority involvement. The trusts "own" the academy then make the decisions on how the school is run. This includes employing administration staff on private contracts to do the jobs the council used to, usually for more money and with CEO's exorbitant salaries. The headmaster, like you say, will have full control of educational matters but that isn't the issue. The issue is that the trusts who run the school only have eyes on profit while councils, while local democracy isn't perfect, don't.

It's just classic Tory privatisation and state shrinking dressed up as something else to fool the electorate who are too stupid or lazy to work out what's happening.

[Webbo]

You're right and wrong, the point of academies is to remove local authority involvement. The trusts "own" the academy then make the decisions on how the school is run. This includes employing administration staff on private contracts to do the jobs the council used to, usually for more money and with CEO's exorbitant salaries. The headmaster, like you say, will have full control of educational matters but that isn't the issue. The issue is that the trusts who run the school only have eyes on profit while councils, while local democracy isn't perfect, don't.

It's just classic Tory privatisation and state shrinking dressed up as something else to fool the electorate who are too stupid or lazy to work out what's happening.

Or possibly they agree with it?

[Sharpe's Fox]

Or possibly they agree with it?

Nope, your clutching at straws. Tories and New Labour hide what they're doing because they know the public will never accept it if they knew. Forty years of neoliberal politics have created a population that aren't sufficiently politically motivated to be informed about their democracy. It helps when you've got a right wing media that doesn't critique it because the people who own it have vested interests.