Labour party civil war

[The Doctor]

Interesting logic that is everything that is wrong with politics today.

Should they not be there to represent their constituents?

Sunderland for example is a labour city but 69% voted to leave. Should she of ignored the people who voted her in. And if you do, the. How can you claim You represent the people who voted For you in the first place?

Well then corbyns seat is Islington, which went remain, so what you've said makes no difference.

[Guest MattP]

This is absolutely hilarious, 7 shadow ministers resign, opposition falling apart and a picture emerges of the deputy leader dancing in a tent at Glastonbury

[Guest]

Interesting logic that is everything that is wrong with politics today.

Should they not be there to represent their constituents?

Sunderland for example is a labour city but 69% voted to leave. Should she of ignored the people who voted her in. And if you do, the. How can you claim You represent the people who voted For you in the first place?

 

How can he represent every voter when some want in and some want out. Leicester voted remain for example.

 

I thought he admirably said he's a 7 out of 10 (or something) for remain. That was a better reflection of his labour voters than anything Boris or Cameron said.

 

He was of course slated for it.

 

Were you a 10 out of 10 or did you have some reservations and view yourself as an 80% in or outer?

[Guest]

Corbyn can't survive this - even if he was to run in another leadership contest and won, he'd still have too many MP's in his party that openly revolted against him, making it an untenable position. You simply can't deselect them all.

It's a shame in a way because he was never given a fair shot - over the year or so there was always decention of some kind, the Parlimentary party was unwilling to move fully his way to see if it worked.

One thing that was certainly clear during his time - he was quite willing to give other people in the party a prominent voice, it wasn't all about him, so it's a shame someone like Hedi Alexander wasn't able to appreciate that. Yes she may feel she took her chance, but it was Jeremy that gave it to her.

 

Agreed.

 

But these people who are "revolting" are doing it against the wishes of their voters and in their own wishes for westminster survival.

 

I feel they should change party or set up a new one like the Social Democrats did back in the day.

This is absolutely hilarious, 7 shadow ministers resign, opposition falling apart and a picture emerges of the deputy leader dancing in a tent at Glastonbury

 

And on the other side we have Boris!

[Alf Bentley]

On the basis of the EU debate no thanks. The majority of Labour voters just voted against what she wanted in one of the biggest decisions we've had as an electorate, she'd be a slightly off putting option for me.

Having said that I just want somebody who is going to put as many Labour MPs in the House of Commons as possible. That's not Jeremy Corbyn obviously, whatever his reasoning and whatever you think of him ideologically, he's not going to appeal to the electorate. Difficult to feel anything other than pessimistic right now.

 

 

When the leadership election took place, I started off favouring Burnham, but he ran a poor campaign. By the end, if I'd had a vote, I would have reluctantly voted for Corbyn as he was mobilising new people and expressing different ideas, some good.

 

The world can change quickly. I now think that Corbyn must go immediately. Otherwise, the Labour Party may not survive as a meaningful political party and the "real, ordinary, decent people" (© Farage) may be thrown to the wolves. I say this despite the fact that many of Corbyn's policies could form part of a future Labour platform. However, as a leader he is personally unconvincing (except to his disciples) and his near opt-out from the referendum campaign, arguably the most important political debate for 70 years, was an act of criminal irresponsibility. 

 

It is sounding increasingly likely that there will be another general election once a new Tory leader is in post. That could be extremely beneficial to the Tories. I would expect such an election to bear similarities to 1983, when the Tories didn't win a massive vote percentage (40%?) but won a landslide because lots of former Labour voters went over to the SDP/Liberal Alliance. I'd expect a significant number of Labour voters to switch to UKIP this time - significantly more than in 2015. Under our electoral system, that would probably only earn UKIP a handful of seats - but it would hand piles of Labour marginals to the Tories.

 

I'd expect the outcome of an election now to be a much larger Tory majority (even if their vote share doesn't rise, or even falls), giving Gove & Boris 5 years to introduce an ultra-Thatcherite restructuring of our nation that would be massively harmful, in particular, to precisely those struggling former Labour voters who voted Brexit and who will probably vote UKIP.

 

The scale of the impending chaos will depend greatly on what happens to the UK economy, what happens to the EU and what sort of post-Brexit UK/EU settlement is agreed. However, even if the economy only suffers minor damage in the short-term, the EU does not collapse and we are able to do half-decent deals on Brexit & trade, uncertainty alone will mean some sort of downturn - at a time when we still have a large deficit and a large debt (on which interest will rise if our credit ratings fall, as anticipated). Does anyone seriously think that the sort of problems that led former Labour voters to support Brexit are going to be a priority for an ultra-Thatcherite government? That suddenly there'll be higher pay, more secure employment, better public services and less immigration? The government will almost certainly have LESS money to spend than before - and the free movement of labour will continue at least for as long as we're in the EU (2-2.5 years?) and will probably remain high even after that, as (unlike UKIP) the Tories really don't give a shit about desperation/discontent in deprived former Labour constituencies. Why would they?

 

There WILL be a backlash against the Tories in the medium-term, though (another good reason for them to hold an election quickly). Eventually, those struggling former Labour voters in deprived communities will realise that Vote Leave have conned them: they'll still be unemployed or in secure / low-paid employment with expensive housing and crap public services, and the immigrants will probably still be here and still arriving in greater or lesser numbers. Their lives might well be worse, not better. Leading Brexit campaigners are already rowing away from suggestions that there'll be a quick fall in immigration or significant extra funds for the NHS.

 

Where will that lead us? Serious social unrest and racist violence is bound to be part of the equation. There'll certainly be a major vacancy for a party of the Far Right. Will UKIP's brand of slightly jingoistic Eurosceptic populism be enough for the sort of anger that might be unleashed? Might UKIP move further to the right to occupy the ground vacated by the BNP - or is Britain First a more likely candidate for that role? Britain First could become a major political force, as I'm sure they realise.

 

Are we now living in the Weimar Republic c. 1931? Maybe not - but maybe. I never thought that fascism would become a major force in the UK, but it looks very possible now.

 

That is why Labour needs to get its act together - and fast! It might already be too late to avoid a large Tory majority in an autumn election. Though it might not, if the economy declines quickly or the lies of the Brexiteers quickly become known. But at the very least Labour must do well enough to remain a credible player capable of offering an appealing alternative if/when popular discontent against the Tory Govt grows over the coming years.

 

Corbyn must be replaced by a capable, charismatic leader, with personal qualities more important than politics (Chuka Umunna auditioned well on referendum night TV, but there may be other options). The new leadership team must then present a policy programme with strong appeal to its former supporters who voted Brexit (a left-wing populist programme): extra funds for public services in areas with high immigration, major crackdown on tax avoidance, steal Tory plans for the "living wage", increased spending on NHS, schools & local services (funded by higher tax on the "elite"), limitations on zero-hours contracts, policies to encourage house building/affordable homes/rents & to discourage buy-to-let, crackdown on employers recruiting migrants only or abusing employment/accommodation conditions to profit from low pay/conditions for migrants and limits on unskilled migration.

 

The alternative to the impending, post-Brexit ultra-Thatcherite onslaught needs to be a left alternative, not the Far Right. Some of Corbyn's policies are good, some bad - but he's the wrong man and has to go. 

[Rincewind]

Can we use part of the safe house for those that want to get away from the overwhelming number of political threads on foxes talk?

[johnny the fox]

Corbyn is leader of Labour.

The Labour party represents the labour party voters.

Labour voters were a remain majority.

So by backing remain, labour were representing the labour voters.

yeah.. but the point is HE is the leader..he is supposed to lead.... he has been anti EU all his political life.... and if he had stuck with his principles ..the Labour party would not be in melt down today...

[johnny the fox]

Johnny the Fox,

Penis in a box.

grow up child for god sake..or leave the thread to grown ups..

[johnny the fox]

JTF isn't good on self portraits either apparently.

keep the personal stuff up ..its what you do best..

[Alf Bentley]

Can we use part of the safe house for those that want to get away from the overwhelming number of political threads on foxes talk?

 

 

Feeling guilty about your Brexit vote, Ken? 

[Guest]

Time for a new Liberal party to take the country by force with truth and honesty.

[Guest MattP]

It's time for a party of the centre to step up.

Agree with most of Alfs post apart from the fascism part, Britain has never tolerated far right parties and never will do.

It's all a moot point anyway, if comrade Corbyn can hang on to an election the members will endorse him again, Milibands three quid a pop to the public turned the party over to this lot and it's going to be hard to get it back.

[Nick]

It's time for a party of the centre to step up.

Agree with most of Alfs post apart from the fascism part, Britain has never tolerated far right parties and never will do.

It's all a moot point anyway, if comrade Corbyn can hang on to an election the members will endorse him again, Milibands three quid a pop to the public turned the party over to this lot and it's going to be hard to get it back.

I wish you'd pipe down with your Comrade Corbin, Corbanite, Corbanysta shite! Undermines some of your better posts buddy.

[Guest Sharpe's Fox]

The political momentum has moved away from the centre. If Labour MP's weren't so bitter they could tap into the momentum of anti-establishment politics and bring some polish to the progressive, but not especially radical, policies Corbyn and McDonnell are suggesting but they can't accept it. If Bernie Sanders can push Clinton, who has ran the most expensive political campaign in world history, all the way it isn't so far away that Corbyn can get a hung parliament and run a left-leaning coalition government, at least.

[Alf Bentley]

It's time for a party of the centre to step up.

Agree with most of Alfs post apart from the fascism part, Britain has never tolerated far right parties and never will do.

It's all a moot point anyway, if comrade Corbyn can hang on to an election the members will endorse him again, Milibands three quid a pop to the public turned the party over to this lot and it's going to be hard to get it back.

 

 

I suppose that a centrist party could materialise from some sort of political realignment if either the New Labourites or the Tory Wets split their parties, but will surely take a while for the Lib Dems to recover. But the mood seems to be more for change and different solutions, not centrist compromises. The SDP ultimately didn't succeed in the 80s despite much more favourable circumstances (public hostility to Left & Right, well-known leaders, benign media attitude).

 

I hope you're right about the rise of fascism but I reckon you're being complacent if you think it can't happen here - there's always a first time. In the 30s there was a strong, credible, fairly united labour movement to oppose it (much more so than today, anyway).....that's why it's so important that Labour gets its act together now, to be a credible alternative to the Tories; otherwise, a big gap opens up for the Far Right. The Far Right has failed before due to popular opposition and/or its own incompetence (NF, BNP) and that might happen again, but might not. The people running Britain First seem to have a certain brutal cunning. 

 

During the referendum night coverage, Carswell sounded open to rejoining the Tories (would make sense for him, if the Brexiteers are in charge) - and this morning, when asked about involving UKIP in negotiations, IDS twice referred explicitly to Carswell (not Farage). In avoiding a rise of the Far Right, it might actually be helpful if Farage stayed at the head of UKIP and kept it fairly popular. I'm not sure he (or any of the other UKIP leaders) has it in them to be the leaders of a proper, overtly racist, violent fascist party. Farage is psychologically too keen on being a "popular, nice guy" (among his own people). It could be more dangerous if UKIP implodes (possible) and Britain First fill the vacuum on the Far Right, as they'd be more capable of using growing public discontent to popularise seriously nasty ideas rather than just be a populist protest movement / saloon bar reactionaries like UKIP.

 

Re. Corbyn: will be interesting to see how many shadow ministers he's left with. If he has so little parliamentary support that he can't appoint a full shadow cabinet, that would surely convince a lot of members that he had to go....starting with Corbyn himself, with a bit of luck. There's the potential for a fair few of his policies to stay in place, maybe even some of his more competent people (e.g. McDonnell), but for him to hand over to a more capable leader, elected on a reasonably left-wing platform, not just a return to New Labour - Umunna's ideas didn't sound entirely "New Labour" the other night.

[Guest Bilo]

Not apparently required anymore - you can draw a penis in a box and that still gets counted!

 

Do they let you vote in crayon?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Do they let you vote in crayon?

No because Mi5 don't have those in their pencil case...

[Guest Bilo]

No because Mi5 don't have those in their pencil case...

 

I wonder how many votes ended up being voided by smudged pen?

[The Doctor]

I wonder how many votes ended up being voided by smudged pen?

 

None, they were just tippexed out. 

[DJ Barry Hammond]

I wonder how many votes ended up being voided by smudged pen?

Not enough clearly! Bloody Mi5, couldn't rig an erection!

[DJ Barry Hammond]

It's time for a party of the centre to step up.

Agree with most of Alfs post apart from the fascism part, Britain has never tolerated far right parties and never will do.

It's all a moot point anyway, if comrade Corbyn can hang on to an election the members will endorse him again, Milibands three quid a pop to the public turned the party over to this lot and it's going to be hard to get it back.

Wasn't that where Cameron and Osborne were trying to move the party to? True, some of their actions belied that, but the thought was clearly there and maybe, had this referendum been won, that's what they would have done in the aftermath.

There is a clear problem here however, in that the Tory party want to delay their bloody leadership contest, leaving the UK in a rudderless position. Part of me wonders whether they actually need a contest - appoint Boris and get on with managing the situation - his contest would not be against another runner but more on what he's able to achieve from Brexit. It's not as if he doesn't have some sort of mandate, even if it's not directly from the party.

It's clear that some key decisions need to be made now, especially within the Treasury and Cameron doesn't really have the authority to remove Osborne and appoint someone else and Osborne doesn't really have the authority to make any firm decisons. We also need to get actions taken relating to Brexit - like setting up a trade negotiating body, reinforcing border forces, making decisons on where we stand with British nationals in the EU, which needs a functioning cabinet.

The other key thing to consider, because it could happen - who would call the shots in the event of a terrorist action in the UK or if there were actions in Syria that need prompt decision making. Holding out until the new year for all these things in place is not good for anyone.

[Spiritwalker]

Corbyn has always been a Euro Sceptic so he obviously wasnt going to be a strong remain campaigner.

The referendum was always going to be his demise.

With the turmoil in the Tory party too, whoever picks the right leader will be in charge for many terms to come.

Personally, I think convincing David Milliband to come back would be the best bet. He really should have been the choice when Ed screwed him over.

One thing is for sure, this is the most exciting political situation in our lifetime.

David Milliband would probably be Prime Minister today had the unions not thrown

their weight behind Ed. However he is no longer an MP so surely he could not be in

the running. He is the charismatic type of leader that Labour need, although even if

he was available I don't think the far left ( who seem to have a strangle hold on the party)

would vote him in as leader.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

David Milliband would probably be Prime Minister today had the unions not thrown

their weight behind Ed. However he is no longer an MP so surely he could not be in

the running. He is the charismatic type of leader that Labour need, although even if

he was available I don't think the far left ( who seem to have a strangle hold on the party)

would vote him in as leader.

Well me thinks what they will do is have the Parlimentary Party unite behind a single candidate - as that's the only way they could possibly get a decisive vote in their favour... and I'd put my money on it be Chuka. They'll be pinning their hopes on him being Labour's Obama (and that's not a bad reflection given Obama is more popular here than in the states)

[Guest Sharpe's Fox]

Any candidate put forward won't be a Blairite because they know Corbyn will win again with the possibility of a increased margin. It will probably be a compromise with a soft-left candidate not associated with Blair like Lisa Nandy to at least make members think again. This is now a ABC (Anything But Corbyn) exercise..

[johnny the fox]

Imagine this lot running the country.. in all my life I have never seen a shambles like it,, what was once a great party is now being destroyed by ego's and political pygmies.. for their own narrow gain.. desperate stuff.