Labour party civil war

[johnny the fox]

What is left of the Labour party is in danger of becoming a personality cult.....

[Guest Bilo]

What is left of the Labour party is in danger of becoming a personality cult.....

 

I'm at the stage now where I'm beginning to wonder if a split would be catastrophic.

Momentum have hijacked the party and its supporters have made the party seem like a personality cult, despite there actually being some significant disquiet within the membership over Corbyn's leadership that's being suppressed by some in the membership. You have to have a thick skin to criticise Corbyn, I can tell you!

We have 400,000 members, but you have to wonder whether that's a double edged sword. If half of that membership are going to demand policies and a leader that will doom Labour to electoral defeat, then clearly there is a massive problem. I imagine Momentum would be the ones to leave the party as, despite their grass roots power, their minority politics mean they have relatively little representation in the PLP. I'd foresee them being a threat to London constituencies in these circumstances, but not really anywhere else.

[johnny the fox]

I'm at the stage now where I'm beginning to wonder if a split would be catastrophic.

Momentum have hijacked the party and its supporters have made the party seem like a personality cult, despite there actually being some significant disquiet within the membership over Corbyn's leadership that's being suppressed by some in the membership. You have to have a thick skin to criticise Corbyn, I can tell you!

We have 400,000 members, but you have to wonder whether that's a double edged sword. If half of that membership are going to demand policies and a leader that will doom Labour to electoral defeat, then clearly there is a massive problem. I imagine Momentum would be the ones to leave the party as, despite their grass roots power, their minority politics mean they have relatively little representation in the PLP. I'd foresee them being a threat to London constituencies in these circumstances, but not really anywhere else.

This is nothing new...the militant tendency infiltrated the party before...in the eighties..just a younger version of the same mindset.... if it had been me .. opposing corbyn i would of got all the 170 mp's to resign on mass and have 170 by elections...with corbyn's lot as candidates.... they would get wiped out  and the boil would lanced once and for all....the corbyn crowd could then set up their own fan club..

[Strokes]

I'm at the stage now where I'm beginning to wonder if a split would be catastrophic.

Momentum have hijacked the party and its supporters have made the party seem like a personality cult, despite there actually being some significant disquiet within the membership over Corbyn's leadership that's being suppressed by some in the membership. You have to have a thick skin to criticise Corbyn, I can tell you!

We have 400,000 members, but you have to wonder whether that's a double edged sword. If half of that membership are going to demand policies and a leader that will doom Labour to electoral defeat, then clearly there is a massive problem. I imagine Momentum would be the ones to leave the party as, despite their grass roots power, their minority politics mean they have relatively little representation in the PLP. I'd foresee them being a threat to London constituencies in these circumstances, but not really anywhere else.

It's the same in all walks off life bilo, those who shout loudest and act unreasonable get the press. There are a huge majority of decent labour supporters that are horrified at what has become of the party, and I would imagine a lot would welcome the chance to disconnect from this. I think similar will happen to tories very soon, I'm totally confused as to where I sit right now on the political spectrum. No party seems to represent me and I'm hardly a whack job (although nobody thinks that about themselves do they, maybe I'm a whack job )

[The Horse's Mouth]

I can't see myself voting for Corbyn if we get another leadership election, I just hope the Leadership candidates are a bit more inspiring than last time out. Think Yvette Cooper was the only one I liked other than Corbyn at the time. 

[bovril]

It's the same in all walks off life bilo, those who shout loudest and act unreasonable get the press. There are a huge majority of decent labour supporters that are horrified at what has become of the party, and I would imagine a lot would welcome the chance to disconnect from this. I think similar will happen to tories very soon, I'm totally confused as to where I sit right now on the political spectrum. No party seems to represent me and I'm hardly a whack job (although nobody thinks that about themselves do they, maybe I'm a whack job )

 

I was thinking the same thing. Let's start a foxestalk party. Chebs for all.

[Sharpe's Fox]

Seems like some posters and the rebels are moaning about us new to the party turning it into a "personality cult", yet instead of criticising the policies the leadership put forward they indulge in the same by criticising Jeremy himself.

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. "

[Guest MattP]

Imagine the split this time, the gang of 174

SNP taking the piss now as well, apparently going ask to be the official opposition in parliament tomorrow.

[Strokes]

I was thinking the same thing. Let's start a foxestalk party. Chebs for all.

A bit sexist, I'm in.

[Guest MattP]

Don't want to worry you @@Bilo but according to George Eaton on Twitter (gets a lot of Labour stuff right) Galloway membership now being discussed by Team Corbyn.

[Guest Bilo]

Don't want to worry you @@Bilo but according to George Eaton on Twitter (gets a lot of Labour stuff right) Galloway membership now being discussed by Team Corbyn.

 

Instant resignation.

 

Not a chance of me sharing party membership with that ****.

[johnny the fox]

Seems like some posters and the rebels are moaning about us new to the party turning it into a "personality cult", yet instead of criticising the policies the leadership put forward they indulge in the same by criticising Jeremy himself.

"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. "

and corbyn discusses in the mirror.. Ideas are bigger than one man..

[Guest Bilo]

This is nothing new...the militant tendency infiltrated the party before...in the eighties..just a younger version of the same mindset.... if it had been me .. opposing corbyn i would of got all the 170 mp's to resign on mass and have 170 by elections...with corbyn's lot as candidates.... they would get wiped out  and the boil would lanced once and for all....the corbyn crowd could then set up their own fan club..

 

Who knows what the future holds? If a leadership election happens, which Corbyn wins, I'd be surprised not to see MPs resign.

[johnny the fox]

 corbyn supporter today..

[Guest Bilo]

Walder Frey always was a wrong un.

[Guest MattP]

Instant resignation.

 

Not a chance of me sharing party membership with that ****.

 

It would be a fitting end to the reign though, one last stand of antisemitism.

 

Had a look on a few Corbyn Facebook pages today and you can see why they have had to act, this is no longer a political party, it's a cult where the leader can do no wrong.

 

In 30 odd years of an MP Corbyn has made no mark of being a lawmaker or a political thinker and he still gives the impression of somebody who has never had a convcersation with someone who shares opposite views to him.

 

Nothing is ever his fault, he goes on Marr 4 days before a EU referendum where immigration is a huge issue and says there is no upper limit on how many people we could take, out of blue he blurts out things liked shared soverignty with Argentina over the Falklamds when no one has even mentioned it, his idea of appealing to the masses was suggesting that Britain’s Trident submarines would be retained but go to sea without carrying nuclear warheads, something that deserved as much ridicule as it got. Not a single ounce of responsibility for these errors ever landed on him from his supporters, despite the words directly coming out of his mouth it was the fault of the Tory BBC, other mainstream media or David Cameron.

 

What summed up the man was refusing to share a platform with David Cameron in the EU campaign, yet you can barely stop him when it's events with “friends” such as the terrorist groups Hamas and Hezbollah or with a notorious Holocaust denier.

 

Britain needs a functioning opposition that offers a alternative government and Labour MPs have a moral obligation to provide it. If only Corbyn had showed as much passion for remain as he is doing now to hold onto his job, he might not be in this position, Alf has mentioned it a few times but it can't be said enough, for the leader of the opposition to vanish during the biggest political campaign of our lifetime is beyond reproach.

[Christoph]

Unfortunately Jezza has lost this one. It's like watching him trying to plaster the cracks from an earthquake. IT's a bit of a shame that the Labour party has turned on him as it's only made their own party look weak now. IF there is a quick election in October, I would not be surprised in the slightest if the conservatives won again. 

[Darkon84]

Serious question, how many apparent undercover Tories or 'Blairites' are supposed to be left in the Labour party now? Surely they must have all been hunted down and burnt at the stake by now? Do the people who throw that (completely overused) name/insult around actually understand it anymore, or is just that anyone who isn't Corbyn or McDonnell is automatically a Blairite and therefore is out to get them? It's all becoming very paranoid and pantomime now.

[Guest MattP]

Unfortunately Jezza has lost this one. It's like watching him trying to plaster the cracks from an earthquake. IT's a bit of a shame that the Labour party has turned on him as it's only made their own party look weak now. IF there is a quick election in October, I would not be surprised in the slightest if the conservatives won again. 

 

Well of course they would, they won last May and since then the opposition had gone from being moderately incompetant to a complete and utter shambles.

[Alf Bentley]

Unfortunately Jezza has lost this one. It's like watching him trying to plaster the cracks from an earthquake. IT's a bit of a shame that the Labour party has turned on him as it's only made their own party look weak now. IF there is a quick election in October, I would not be surprised in the slightest if the conservatives won again. 

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest either. However, I don't think it's as much of a foregone conclusion as Matt reckons - though it is if Corbyn stays.

 

If Corbyn stays and/or Labour fail to present a platform that appeals to traditional Lab voters in the North/Midlands, I'd expect a lot of former Lab voters who supported Brexit to switch to UKIP - a lot more than in 2015. That could easily produce a 1983 scenario: in 1983 the Tory vote actually went down compared to 1979, but Thatcher ended up with 100 extra seats and a 144-seat majority, because so many Lab voters defected to the SDP, thereby handing marginals to the Tories.

 

Something like that might happen anyway. It might be too late for Labour to haul this one back. But if they present a good platform and have a competent leader, at least they stand a chance of being competitive - and of staying in the game for next time, even if they do lose.

 

However, the popularity of the Tories and UKIP can't be taken for granted. I'd expect UKIP support to grow once it becomes clear that the Tories aren't going to do much about immigration and will probably end up with a dog's dinner of a Brexit deal, but UKIP are quite capable of imploding just like Labour.

 

The Tories aren't massively popular either - and weren't in 2015, despite their win. Concerns about the potential alternative government played a big part in helping them win. Some Tory voters are already alienated by the antics of Tory leaders on both sides of the Brexit debate - and discontent could well grow if the economy suffers a downturn and/or it looks like the UK is going to get a bad Brexit deal. All the more reason why Labour urgently needs a credible leader and a strong, appealing political platform (which could actually include some decent ideas that Corbyn has expressed). 

[johnny the fox]

The remaining " support " for corbyn is just like a rope supports a hanging man for the Labour party...

[Guest MattP]

Rod Liddle sums it up perfectly, it's a shame the members don't elect him as leader, he would do very well.

 

Poor, deluded Labour: your policies sent your voters for the door

You were hoping that the truly berserk stuff from our politicians would stop, now that the referendum is decided, weren’t you? The delusional claims and the transparent lies, the surreal assertions from people who have no grasp on reality or think we are idiots. You perhaps hoped we’d just go back to the usual bog-standard disingenuousness and obfuscation of old. But nope: since Friday morning, in the Labour party at least, they’re getting still more doolally.

 

Labour MPs were given a briefing paper to “help” explain how their own voters gave “leave” its victory, when their leader had campaigned — I use the word loosely — for “remain”. This seems to have been written by Lewis Carroll after he’d smoked some really strong skunk. Here’s an excerpt: “Jeremy Corbyn has showed that he is far closer to the centre of gravity of the British public than other politicians. He is now the only politician who can unite a divided country, as he can speak to both sides.”

 

It goes on to say that Labour voters backed Brexit simply because they didn’t like our horrible government, while being happy with Corbyn’s immigration policies. This hilarious bilge was handed out to Labour MPs, presumably with the request not to leak it to the press, and was leaked in the time it takes to say “dictatorship of the proletariat”.

 

It was people who were once Labour voters who handed the “leave” campaign its triumph. Especially in the north of England and the Midlands, where there is growing evidence that the liquidation of Labour in Scotland is being replicated. Corbyn half-heartedly campaigned for “remain” for reasons of narrow political expedience: the parliamentary Labour party would not have tolerated him doing otherwise. In so doing he tore up the one trump card he possessed, which was the notion — only partly accurate — that he is an authentic conviction politician who does not play the usual game. He also lost the chance to prosecute a progressive and radical case for leaving the EU — something in which he actually believes and that might have gained traction with lefty voters.

 

Now there are calls for him to resign, and waiting in the wings are the magnificent figures of John McDonnell — worse than Corbyn by a factor of 50 — and her grand dameship Margaret Hodge, worse than both on a scale unknown to mathematics. Labour, then, will be faced with a false dichotomy, between the infantile politics of Corbyn’s Momentum cabal, which, some economic policies aside, is loathed by Labour’s electorate north of the Wash, and the epicene and perpetually fractious Europhile Blairites.

The one thing the party cannot grasp is that its immigration policy was the main cause for the “leave” vote among its natural constituency. Which is why a Blairite as leader would do little better: Blair started the whole immigration shebang. People have not forgotten. And the Blairites refuse to apologise.

 

It is remarkable that a left-wing party continues to pursue a policy that utterly repels its natural voting base. Yet Labour is far from alone in this, in fairness. Social democratic parties across Europe, captured by the affluent and politically correct metro middle class, say much the same things. And across the continent a whole tranche of people are left either disenfranchised or tilted towards right-wing populist parties that do worry about both immigration and extremist Islam.

So junking Corbyn does no good, even if it might make us feel better. It is the party that must change, not its leader.

[johnny the fox]

Rod Liddle sums it up perfectly, it's a shame the members don't elect him as leader, he would do very well.

 

Poor, deluded Labour: your policies sent your voters for the door

You were hoping that the truly berserk stuff from our politicians would stop, now that the referendum is decided, weren’t you? The delusional claims and the transparent lies, the surreal assertions from people who have no grasp on reality or think we are idiots. You perhaps hoped we’d just go back to the usual bog-standard disingenuousness and obfuscation of old. But nope: since Friday morning, in the Labour party at least, they’re getting still more doolally.

 

Labour MPs were given a briefing paper to “help” explain how their own voters gave “leave” its victory, when their leader had campaigned — I use the word loosely — for “remain”. This seems to have been written by Lewis Carroll after he’d smoked some really strong skunk. Here’s an excerpt: “Jeremy Corbyn has showed that he is far closer to the centre of gravity of the British public than other politicians. He is now the only politician who can unite a divided country, as he can speak to both sides.”

 

It goes on to say that Labour voters backed Brexit simply because they didn’t like our horrible government, while being happy with Corbyn’s immigration policies. This hilarious bilge was handed out to Labour MPs, presumably with the request not to leak it to the press, and was leaked in the time it takes to say “dictatorship of the proletariat”.

 

It was people who were once Labour voters who handed the “leave” campaign its triumph. Especially in the north of England and the Midlands, where there is growing evidence that the liquidation of Labour in Scotland is being replicated. Corbyn half-heartedly campaigned for “remain” for reasons of narrow political expedience: the parliamentary Labour party would not have tolerated him doing otherwise. In so doing he tore up the one trump card he possessed, which was the notion — only partly accurate — that he is an authentic conviction politician who does not play the usual game. He also lost the chance to prosecute a progressive and radical case for leaving the EU — something in which he actually believes and that might have gained traction with lefty voters.

 

Now there are calls for him to resign, and waiting in the wings are the magnificent figures of John McDonnell — worse than Corbyn by a factor of 50 — and her grand dameship Margaret Hodge, worse than both on a scale unknown to mathematics. Labour, then, will be faced with a false dichotomy, between the infantile politics of Corbyn’s Momentum cabal, which, some economic policies aside, is loathed by Labour’s electorate north of the Wash, and the epicene and perpetually fractious Europhile Blairites.

The one thing the party cannot grasp is that its immigration policy was the main cause for the “leave” vote among its natural constituency. Which is why a Blairite as leader would do little better: Blair started the whole immigration shebang. People have not forgotten. And the Blairites refuse to apologise.

 

It is remarkable that a left-wing party continues to pursue a policy that utterly repels its natural voting base. Yet Labour is far from alone in this, in fairness. Social democratic parties across Europe, captured by the affluent and politically correct metro middle class, say much the same things. And across the continent a whole tranche of people are left either disenfranchised or tilted towards right-wing populist parties that do worry about both immigration and extremist Islam.

So junking Corbyn does no good, even if it might make us feel better. It is the party that must change, not its leader.

I agree with every word..except I would go one step further and bin both main parties and start with a clean slate...

[Guest MattP]

Pat Glass resigns from Shadow Cabinet, two days after being appointed to it.

[johnny the fox]

Pat Glass resigns from Shadow Cabinet, two days after being appointed to it.

we are heading into Leeds united country now...